Wolf DeVoon

What doesn't make sense about Objectivist values

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Brant writes:

I don't want to know why Wolf went to prison. I'd like to know why anyone on the Internet would like to know. Is it for the sake of a life enhancing value or more ad hominem stomping?

Jonathan just wants to use it to feed his ugliness.

Greg

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Wolf writes:

I think you're wrong about that. I've met too many people, in the past and most recently, who are making their way in big cities and small towns, pursuing opportunities and working hard to get ahead. They're living cheerfully and successfully.

You made no reference to how those people got ahead. It all depends on how. Some people gain only by the loss of others... while others create their own gain by helping others gain. One system is win/lose while the other is win/win. I belong to the latter. I prosper through helping others prosper. Ayn Rand might call it "value for value exchange".

Hermits like you and I are cloistered from the profane culture,

That's true, Wolf.

Our little village has about 8,000 residents, and lies in the midst of thousands of acres of open uninhabited land. It also does not belong to any incorporated city. It's as FAR from government as we can get without giving up the blessings of civilization.

rather than doing something more profitable. You could knock down $1000 a day as an electrician if you wanted to. Downside risk is sudden surprises in L.A.

I don't need to make more money than I do right now. Pricing my goods and services fairly always keeps me in demand regardless of economic conditions. I'm already worth seven figures with zero debts, and we have everything we need to live a good life here in Galt's Gulch.

I take Atlas Shrugged very seriously in a peculiar way that no one else does. To everyone else it's just a fantasy novel.

To me it's an "Ethical Business Operations Manual", and "How To Build Your Own Galt's Gulch". :smile:

Greg

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Brant writes:

I don't want to know why Wolf went to prison. I'd like to know why anyone on the Internet would like to know. Is it for the sake of a life enhancing value or more ad hominem stomping?

Jonathan just wants to use it to feed his ugliness.

Greg

Apey, um, you should ask someone whom you know and trust to look up the word "sarcasm" for you and explain it to you. Once they tell you that they're certain that you've fully grasped what the word means, then you should go back and reread my recent posts here about WolfAlan's begging us to beg him to tell us why he went to prison. While reading my posts in which I beg WolfAlan to reveal why he went to prison, try very hard to also keep in your mind, at the same time, the new word "sarcasm" that you had just spend a couple of hours learning. I know that it'll be very hard for you, that it will be a lot of work and frustration, and that your brain will hurt, but it'll be worth it. You'll be much smarter! You'll know six things instead of just the five that you know now!

J

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Wolf writes:I think you're wrong about that. I've met too many people, in the past and most recently, who are making their way in big cities and small towns, pursuing opportunities and working hard to get ahead. They're living cheerfully and successfully.

You made no reference to how those people got ahead. It all depends on how. Some people gain only by the loss of others... while others create their own gain by helping others gain. One system is win/lose while the other is win/win. I belong to the latter. I prosper through helping others prosper. Ayn Rand might call it "value for value exchange".

Hermits like you and I are cloistered from the profane culture,

That's true, Wolf.Our little village has about 8,000 residents, and lies in the midst of thousands of acres of open uninhabited land. It also does not belong to any incorporated city. It's as FAR from government as we can get without giving up the blessings of civilization.

rather than doing something more profitable. You could knock down $1000 a day as an electrician if you wanted to. Downside risk is sudden surprises in L.A.

I don't need to make more money than I do right now. Pricing my goods and services fairly always keeps me in demand regardless of economic conditions. I'm already worth seven figures with zero debts, and we have everything we need to live a good life here in Galt's Gulch.I take Atlas Shrugged very seriously in a peculiar way that no one else does. To everyone else it's just a fantasy novel.To me it's an "Ethical Business Operations Manual", and "How To Build Your Own Galt's Gulch". :smile:Greg

In Rand's ideal world of no regulations or licensing, electricians wouldn't make much money at all.

J

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Jonathan hits below the belt. Naughty, naughty.

Skilled tradespeople will always make a decent living.

The plumbing, electrical and gas lines have to go in correctly in new construction. I once met a doctor who had to tear out and replace $20,000 of drywall because the wrong gauge wire was used in his new home. It was an incredibly stupid mistake. By A Licensed Electrician. Makes you wonder about bribery.

--Brant

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In Rand's ideal world of no regulations or licensing, electricians wouldn't make much money at all.

You were better off being elusive and condescending. Statement above reveals a severe intellectual deficit.

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Jonathan writes:

In Rand's ideal world of no regulations or licensing, electricians wouldn't make much money at all.

Ayn Rand's ideal world teaches many valuable lessons on ethical productivity...

...and that's the key to making a good living in the real world just as it is right now.

Your own failure to learn them has only made you bitter, not better.

Greg

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Is there an emoticon for sarcasm?

sarcasm.gif <<<< my old standby

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In Rand's ideal world of no regulations or licensing, electricians wouldn't make much money at all.

You were better off being elusive and condescending. Statement above reveals a severe intellectual deficit.

Oh, well, if you arbitrarily say so, WolfAlan, then we'll just take your word for it without hearing any arguments or evidence.

Think it through, genius. What is one of the main problems with statism, economically speaking? Is it not that statist policies reward certain inefficiencies and prop up certain monopolies with the threat of force? They result in certain people benefitting economically at a level which they would not achieve if it were not for government protecting them from competition.

Dunce.

J

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Jonathan writes:

In Rand's ideal world of no regulations or licensing, electricians wouldn't make much money at all.

Ayn Rand's ideal world teaches many valuable lessons on ethical productivity...

...and that's the key to making a good living in the real world just as it is right now.

Your own failure to learn them has only made you bitter, not better.

Greg

Are you taking the position that it is a good thing that government regulations and licensing protect your profession from just anyone freely entering the market and competing with you? Are you saying that you think that Rand would have supported the idea of government regulating and licensing your profession? Or don't you even quite know what you're saying, but you're just grunting and having apey feelings because Apey not like Jonathan, Apey think Jonathan bad?

J

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certain people benefitting economically at a level which they would not achieve if it were not for government protecting them

Dunce.

350px-US_employment_1995-2012.png

"While stuck in a massive DC Beltway traffic jam, I was recently harassed for a donation. A man was going car to car speaking briefly with the occupants, when he arrived at mine, I asked what was going on. He said ISIS had stormed the White House, the Capitol, and K Street. They were demanding $50 Million cash, or said they would douse the hostages with gas and set them ablaze. He asked if I'd be willing to donate, and I said sure, how much are most people giving? He replied, a couple gallons." [sunday humor at Zero Hedge]

Chevron to cut up to 7,000 jobs http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/10/30/chevron-cut-up-7000-jobs-amid-oil-slump/74861060/
Cummins to cut 2,000 jobs http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/cummins-cut-2000-jobs-due-weak-demand-engines-34761419
Weatherford plans to cut 3,000 more jobs http://fuelfix.com/blog/2015/10/21/weatherford-plans-to-cut-3000-more-jobs-by-the-end-of-2015/
New York Wire files Chapter 11 bankruptcy http://archive.ydr.com/business/ci_28944909/new-york-wire-files-chapter-11-bankruptcy/
FMC Corp to cut 12% of workforce http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fmc-shares-drop-on-lowered-outlook-layoffs-2015-10-12
A&P facing deeper layoffs of 13,000 http://nypost.com/2015/10/07/ap-facing-deeper-layoffs-of-10000-on-thanksgiving-day/
Patriot Coal expects to lay off more than 1,000 http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Patriot-Coal-expects-to-lay-off-more-than-1-000-6553364.php
AK Steel plans 600 layoffs http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/10/16/ak-steel-considering-layoffs-ky-plant/74071090/
Sun Edison to fire 15% of workers http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-05/sunedison-to-fire-15-of-workers-may-take-40-million-charge
Joy Global announces indefinite layoffs http://www.mining.com/joy-global-announces-indefinite-layoffs-affecting-100-loses-sp-500-listing/
$700 million Illinois construction projects stalled http://www.sj-r.com/article/20151108/NEWS/151109630
More dangerous than it has been in years to work in construction http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20151108/REAL_ESTATE/151109894/unsafe-at-any-height-its-more-dangerous-than-it-has-been-in-years-to-work-in-construction

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Are you taking the position that it is a good thing that government regulations and licensing protect your profession from just anyone freely entering the market and competing with you?

Jonathan, you're behaving like an envious liberal failure who imagines privilege where there is none. You just can't stop letting everyone know how little you know about the business world.

In the Capitalist private sector free market there are plenty of unlicensed electricians. Likely more than licensed, and some of which are actually better than licensed ones. They're called "handymen". There's plenty of work here for all of us, licensed or not. I'm friends with other local electricians here, and when I have more business than I can handle, I don't hesitate to recommend them because they're good men. So as usual, you're barking up the wrong tree, and that's bound to happen when you let your angry adversarial attitude run away with you. It makes you imagine that others are combative just like you are when in truth they're are not.

People who fail to become the master of their own behavior will be governed by masters. That be you.

Are you saying that you think that Rand would have supported the idea of government regulating and licensing your profession?

I'm saying I do very well regardless of a license because I'm decent responsible competent and honest. I'm saying I think Ayn Rand would approve of voluntary equitable value for value exchanges. That's precisely what I've been doing for 35 years in the trade. And it is why I enjoy the economic freedom I work to earn.

A license is no different from a degree, except it's for a trade, and it is no guarantee of anything any more than a degree is.

You seem to be so ignorant of the most simple of business principles. And your ugly toxic bitter envious attitude could only be an obstacle in your own life by poisoning your relationships with others.

Greg

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Rand strongly disapproved of licensing psychotherapists. One assumes that travels to other professions on her principle of thinking in principles.

I've used an unlicensed electrician. She was also legal. Interestingly she had used to do plumbing but gave it up as a little to arduous considering her age. I knew about her through her family going back to our shared nursery school here in Tucson her mother had helped my mother get off the ground, which still exists over 65 years later. In Arizona the cut off for licensing is cost of the job--$600. A licensed contractor also gives the contractee access to a slush fund in case of malfeasance. The size of the fund is limited so you have to get your claim in as soon as possible. You can also build your own home and do all the work as long as the inspector signs off on it.

When it comes to airplanes the owner can do all the work as long as a licensed mechanic signs off on it, which is also how an unlicensed mechanic can work on your airplane. This is Federal. The owner can also do his own lower grade specified maintenance without any oversight or sign off. Anyone can build his own airplane from scratch as long as it gets signed off on too. These airplanes operate under the "Experimental" category and are much more likely to kill their owners than certified aircraft. This happened to John Denver and John Walton.

The FAA (Federal Aviation Authority)--and similar international authorities--has generally made commercial flying almost as safe as it can be and must be considered a successful use of a regulatory function whatever your political philosophy. It's the sort of thing that would be last on any rational, knowledgeable person's list for deregulation. Any deregulation on the State and lower levels can almost be done at will comparatively.

--Brant

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...successful use of a regulatory function...

That depends on how many people you think ought to be flying, or building nuclear weapons, or making sausage. If the goal is to keep everybody alive, that justifies wealth transfers and free medical care, building codes, zoning -- the whole nanny state. Next thing you know, people will expect congressional redistricting and affirmative action for dummies.

11-8-20129-14-49PM.png

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Excuse me. The wording of my post was precise and factual. Some deregulation needs to be done carefully over time and after other deregulatory actions that are much more short and intermedaite term rewarding. Ideological reasoning is basically a set up for rational action and if you don't know the subject stand aside for those who do while agreeing with the operative principle. It's analogous to taking down a skyscraper using controlled demolition. You and I may agree it needs to come down and sign off on the project, but it's not our actual job to set and blow the charges or even to say when. The deregulating of commercial aviation isn't likely to happen this century unless a fool comes along. The possibility of that fool might make sense of blocking that fool by doing it sooner. But the existence of that fool would mean things are so bad it wouldn't really matter anyway.

--Brant

our present-day fool, Obama, is too busy making the world safe for nuclear war so we're safe for now

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I don't have any complaint with your ideas, Brant. You may be right as rain. Demolition of the World Trade Center was undertaken without proper supervision. There ought to be a law against crime. And OMG racial intolerance!

Missouri Faculty to Walk Out in Solidarity With Students

The Concerned Faculty group at the University of Missouri is to begin a two-day walkout today in support of student activists who say the school has done too little to address their concerns about racism and racial intolerance on campus.

"We, the concerned faculty of the University of Missouri, stand in solidarity with the Mizzou student activists who are advocating for racial justice on our campus and urge all MU faculty to demonstrate their support by walking out on Monday November 9 and Tuesday November 10, 2015 along with other allies such as the Forum on Graduate Rights," according to a statement released late Sunday night by The Concerned Faculty group.

"Faculty will meet at the Carnahan Quadrangle starting at 10am and will be present throughout the day to respond to student questions in the form of a teach in. Students are encouraged to check email for information from their professors."

The news comes as football players at the university said they won't participate in team activities until university President Tim Wolfe is removed from office...

"We are open to listening to all sides, and are confident that we can come together to improve the student experience on our campuses," Wolfe said. "We want to find the best way to get everyone around the table and create the safe space for a meaningful conversation that promotes change. We will share next steps as soon as they are confirmed."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missouri-faculty-staff-walk-students-solidarity-show/story?id=35068809

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It seems to be illustrative of PC out of control for all that I know. It's to be enjoyed as the PCers get bit on the ass by their own PC.

--Brant

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Today's sublime black comedy:

Krugman Doesn't Understand Why "Darkness Is Spreading Over Part Of Our Society"

"Basically, white Americans are, in increasing numbers, killing themselves, directly or indirectly. Suicide is way up, and so are deaths from drug poisoning and the chronic liver disease that excessive drinking can cause."

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There was no demolition of the WTC unless you mean the airplanes flown into the buildings or the possibility of an inside job. As your post is written, you are implying the latter.

--Brant

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Brant writes:

You can also build your own home and do all the work as long as the inspector signs off on it.

Yes. It's known as Owner/Builder.

We built ourselves without the need for a General Contractor. I pulled all the permits.

You can still enjoy autonomy in America. :smile:

Greg

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Brant writes:

You can also build your own home and do all the work as long as the inspector signs off on it.

Yes. It's known as Owner/Builder.

We built ourselves without the need for a General Contractor. I pulled all the permits.

You can still enjoy autonomy in America. :smile:

Greg

Ah, yes--sort of like these guys:

https://youtu.be/7U3Oti2L8S4

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certain people benefitting economically at a level which they would not achieve if it were not for government protecting them

Dunce.

350px-US_employment_1995-2012.png

"While stuck in a massive DC Beltway traffic jam, I was recently harassed for a donation. A man was going car to car speaking briefly with the occupants, when he arrived at mine, I asked what was going on. He said ISIS had stormed the White House, the Capitol, and K Street. They were demanding $50 Million cash, or said they would douse the hostages with gas and set them ablaze. He asked if I'd be willing to donate, and I said sure, how much are most people giving? He replied, a couple gallons." [sunday humor at Zero Hedge]

Chevron to cut up to 7,000 jobs http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/10/30/chevron-cut-up-7000-jobs-amid-oil-slump/74861060/

Cummins to cut 2,000 jobs http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/cummins-cut-2000-jobs-due-weak-demand-engines-34761419

Weatherford plans to cut 3,000 more jobs http://fuelfix.com/blog/2015/10/21/weatherford-plans-to-cut-3000-more-jobs-by-the-end-of-2015/

New York Wire files Chapter 11 bankruptcy http://archive.ydr.com/business/ci_28944909/new-york-wire-files-chapter-11-bankruptcy/

FMC Corp to cut 12% of workforce http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fmc-shares-drop-on-lowered-outlook-layoffs-2015-10-12

A&P facing deeper layoffs of 13,000 http://nypost.com/2015/10/07/ap-facing-deeper-layoffs-of-10000-on-thanksgiving-day/

Patriot Coal expects to lay off more than 1,000 http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Patriot-Coal-expects-to-lay-off-more-than-1-000-6553364.php

AK Steel plans 600 layoffs http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/10/16/ak-steel-considering-layoffs-ky-plant/74071090/

Sun Edison to fire 15% of workers http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-05/sunedison-to-fire-15-of-workers-may-take-40-million-charge

Joy Global announces indefinite layoffs http://www.mining.com/joy-global-announces-indefinite-layoffs-affecting-100-loses-sp-500-listing/

$700 million Illinois construction projects stalled http://www.sj-r.com/article/20151108/NEWS/151109630

More dangerous than it has been in years to work in construction http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20151108/REAL_ESTATE/151109894/unsafe-at-any-height-its-more-dangerous-than-it-has-been-in-years-to-work-in-construction

WolfAlan,

What argument do you image that you're addressing with the above? What relevance do you think that the above has to the discussion here?

J

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Are you taking the position that it is a good thing that government regulations and licensing protect your profession from just anyone freely entering the market and competing with you?

Jonathan, you're behaving like an envious liberal failure who imagines privilege where there is none.

Are you trying to claim that unlicensed people are free to compete with licensed electricians in all areas of electrical work? Are you claiming that there are no regulations which prevent them from selling any and all of their services to whomever they choose while not being licensed by the state? Are you trying to peddle the falsehood that the state does not use the initiation of force, or the threat of the initiation of force, against unlicensed electricians who simply wish to sell their services without the government's permission and restrictions?

In the Capitalist private sector free market...

We are not living in a "Capitalist private sector free market." A system which imposes licensing and regulation on businesses is not properly called a "Capitalist private sector free market."

...there are plenty of unlicensed electricians.

No one has claimed otherwise.

Likely more than licensed, and some of which are actually better than licensed ones.

Indeed, some are much better, but, despite being better, they are prevented by the state from doing tasks which the state allows only licensed electricians to do.

They're called "handymen". There's plenty of work here for all of us, licensed or not.

Try to pay attention, Apey. The issue is not that there is or is not "work here for all of us." The issue is that the state forcibly prevents what you call mere "handymen" from competing with licensed electricians. The "handymen" will be punished by the state if they perform certain tasks without a license from the state.

Address the actual issue here, rather than trying to slither out of if with your really lame Clinton-esque maneuvers.

Are you saying that you think that Rand would have supported the idea of government regulating and licensing your profession?

I'm saying I do very well regardless of a license because I'm decent responsible competent and honest.

Does that mean that you don't have a license or that you do? Are you saying that you do have a license, but that you'd do just as well without one? Are you just arbitrarily asserting that the license has had no impact, no benefit at all, on the amount of money you've made compared to what you could make without it?

I'm saying I think Ayn Rand would approve of voluntary equitable value for value exchanges.

When a state mandates licenses and prevents unlicensed competitors from entering the field in any and all capacities that they choose, it is not a "voluntary" system. When a state-licensed electrician is protected via government initiation of force from having to compete with unlicensed electricians, he is not dealing in a voluntary system.

A license is no different from a degree, except it's for a trade, and it is no guarantee of anything any more than a degree is.

You're being a Clinton. There IS a difference between a license and a degree. A HUGE difference. A license involves the state's use of force.

But your attitude is pretty common among people who benefit from government force. They tend to downplay the involuntary nature of the benefits that they receive. People on welfare, for example, will say that there's no difference between welfare and charity, just as you say that there's no difference between a license and a degree.

You seem to be so ignorant of the most simple of business principles. And your ugly toxic bitter envious attitude could only be an obstacle in your own life by poisoning your relationships with others.

Yeah, when you can't answer questions, and when your Clinton-esque equivocations and distractions don't work, your last resort is always to try to put a magic hex on me. My disagreeing with any position of yours, or catching you in one of your many moments of stupidity, is going to bring me doom!

J

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