Lazy Fair City

[Jonathan]

My favorite thing to observe in O-land is when the wool is pulled so entirely over Rand's fans' eyes that they can't see that the new object of their affection is not only opposing Rand and her philosophy and her sense of life, but totally shitting on her. To me that was the funniest thing about the morons who went gaga over Pigero and became his followers. Morons to the core.

J

[Mikee]

My favorite thing to observe in O-land is when the wool is pulled so entirely over Rand's fans' eyes that they can't see that the new object of their affection is not only opposing Rand and her philosophy and her sense of life, but totally shitting on her. To me that was the funniest thing about the morons who went gaga over Pigero and became his followers. Morons to the core.

J

So you're mission is to protect everyone and set them right. The world according to Jonathan... Sorry, don't need you, go away.

[Jonathan]

"No man should be allowed to judge his own case." -- "Wolf DeVoon"

And yet when I've called "Wolf" "Pup," or "Pup BaBoon," he has threatened that, if I ever call him such names in person, he will settle it right then and there by taking matters into his own hands and making me deeply regret it. Badass street fighter and judge-in-his-own-case "Wolf" is going to open up such an enormous can of whoopass that the beating I receive will alter my outlook on life.

"Wolf," do you ever think anything through? I mean, for a legal scholar/philosopher wannabe, why doesn't it ever occur to you to consider critically examining any of your ideas or behavior?

J

P.S. Can we arrange to meet briefly, alone in a dark alley or somewhere similar? After having learned so much more about you now, I'm eager to have that face-to-face encounter in which you imagine that you're going to set me straight and change my world. Please, let's set up a time and place that's convenient for you.

Wolf said something in a heated moment and backed off. Are you in heat all the time? You know this encounter is never going to take place. What are your particulars that make you so brave? Details: military experience, fighting background, years spent as a bouncer in a biker bar, martial arts degrees, height, weight, age, body composition, strength benchmarks, impress me with your physical prowess. Upgrade this picture:

Are you "Wolf's" girlfriend? You're sure acting like it.

J

Just as I thought. Maybe one of your many, many, female admirers who send you personal messages on OL can chime in your defense. Or do you have an overactive imagination? Or are you just habitually dishonest?

I never said anything about having female admirers, idiot. I merely said that women had contacted me and agreed wholeheartedly with my takedowns of loudmouthed men.

You should take some time to calm your emotions. You're way too worked up to think straight. Try to practice Objectivism, and behave rationally. well, that is, if you still value Objectivism and if your crush on "Wolf" hasn't made you abandon it.

J

[Jonathan]

My favorite thing to observe in O-land is when the wool is pulled so entirely over Rand's fans' eyes that they can't see that the new object of their affection is not only opposing Rand and her philosophy and her sense of life, but totally shitting on her. To me that was the funniest thing about the morons who went gaga over Pigero and became his followers. Morons to the core.

J

So you're mission is to protect everyone and set them right. The world according to Jonathan... Sorry, don't need you, go away.

No. You're still being highly irrational and making nonsense inferences. Get a grip. Go soak your head, and try to get control of your emotions. Focus on trying to think rationally again.

J

[Mikee]

"No man should be allowed to judge his own case." -- "Wolf DeVoon"

And yet when I've called "Wolf" "Pup," or "Pup BaBoon," he has threatened that, if I ever call him such names in person, he will settle it right then and there by taking matters into his own hands and making me deeply regret it. Badass street fighter and judge-in-his-own-case "Wolf" is going to open up such an enormous can of whoopass that the beating I receive will alter my outlook on life.

"Wolf," do you ever think anything through? I mean, for a legal scholar/philosopher wannabe, why doesn't it ever occur to you to consider critically examining any of your ideas or behavior?

J

P.S. Can we arrange to meet briefly, alone in a dark alley or somewhere similar? After having learned so much more about you now, I'm eager to have that face-to-face encounter in which you imagine that you're going to set me straight and change my world. Please, let's set up a time and place that's convenient for you.

Wolf said something in a heated moment and backed off. Are you in heat all the time? You know this encounter is never going to take place. What are your particulars that make you so brave? Details: military experience, fighting background, years spent as a bouncer in a biker bar, martial arts degrees, height, weight, age, body composition, strength benchmarks, impress me with your physical prowess. Upgrade this picture:

Are you "Wolf's" girlfriend? You're sure acting like it.

J

Just as I thought. Maybe one of your many, many, female admirers who send you personal messages on OL can chime in your defense. Or do you have an overactive imagination? Or are you just habitually dishonest?

I never said anything about having female admirers, idiot. I merely said that women had contacted me and agreed wholeheartedly with my takedowns of loudmouthed men.

You should take some time to calm your emotions. You're way too worked up to think straight. Try to practice Objectivism, and behave rationally. well, that is, if you still value Objectivism and if your crush on "Wolf" hasn't made you abandon it.

J

Bullshit. You still haven't muscled up that image any...got nothing? Wish one of your girls would chime in in your defense...

You're quite boring actually.

[Mikee]

My favorite thing to observe in O-land is when the wool is pulled so entirely over Rand's fans' eyes that they can't see that the new object of their affection is not only opposing Rand and her philosophy and her sense of life, but totally shitting on her. To me that was the funniest thing about the morons who went gaga over Pigero and became his followers. Morons to the core.

J

So you're mission is to protect everyone and set them right. The world according to Jonathan... Sorry, don't need you, go away.

No. You're still being highly irrational and making nonsense inferences. Get a grip. Go soak your head, and try to get control of your emotions. Focus on trying to think rationally again.

J

Hey! Slow down. Remember, more meds...

[Brant Gaede]

Do you feel better about yourself now, Apey? That's right, let it out! Express your anger about having been shown to be a complete fool in believing magical predictions of doom where everyone but you would get punished.

J

Seven people were swept to their deaths in a Zion National Park flash flood. I guess that fulfills Greg's prophecy (or is he passing the prophecy buck)?

--Brant

[Jonathan]

Mikee,

Do you have any substance, or just more emotings? Can you not address my criticisms of your boyfriend "Wolf's" ideas and methods?

J

[Brant Gaede]

Anybody want to fight me? M-16s at 100 feet. (Ammo optional.)

--Brant

not good enough for anything else; I'm too old (but exercising my trigger finger)

No ammo is okay; I can still go "Bang! Bang!" like I did on the streets of Tucson in the early 1950s (I have a notorious reputation)

[Brant Gaede]

Sorry if I was misunderstood, but I didn't mean to suggest that I'd be backing off in regard to all of "Wolf's" shenanigans, but only in regard to his pathetic self-aggrandizement of his filmmaking talents. My pity involved my seeing what his career has produced and comparing it to his pissing on much, much better filmmakers. Normally I'd want to have a good laugh at such delusional hubris, but in this case it really is just too pathetic to enjoy any humor in it.

J

You apologized to the whole person.

You continued in character. That's Wolf's choice. I know it reads WTF? ironic.

I don't object to your character. That's my choice for my reasons. But one reason is I can't do anything about it and if I could I don't think I'd care at all for what takes its place. When we are our ages it's hard or impossible to regroup. I do not claim to have any knowledge of your non-Internet persona. The Internet you is all you are here. That's less than Greg; that's less than Wolf. It's a Grand Canyon less than me. If I had the Internet to do all over again I wouldn't be more than you, but I've over 27 years of it in the bag--not one post except by "Brant Gaede" except a few by "Brant" on ToThePointNews.com. (Google "Fort Freedom.")

--Brant

you is what you is--so too everybody else (at least we aren't boring, I hope)

[Mikee]

Mikee,

Do you have any substance, or just more emotings? Can you not address my criticisms of your boyfriend "Wolf's" ideas and methods?

J

It's not about Wolf, it's about Jonathan, you, you, you. And whether or not you are an obsessed madman and a liar. I have my own tentative conclusions about Wolf, I have his book. My issue with you is you have no perceivable purpose but to insult and denigrate someone. You make the same point a million times, plus all the baiting. You do exactly what you accuse someone else of doing. You make physical threats, calling someone out to meet in person for a physical confrontation. You project a tough guy image. You know it's not going to happen, there goes the image, now you look really, really small. So, puff yourself back up with some real verifiable data about yourself. Paint a picture of yourself. Get out of the house much? Hey, I know you want to talk about yourself. Genius IQ? Other people's opinions don't matter? You figured out everything there is to know when you were eight? Did you ever harm small animals when you were young? Was that not enough?

[Jonathan]

Your emotings are tiresome, Mikee. What appears to have gotten you so upset is my post 163 in which I criticized "Wolf's" very irrational and anti-Objectivist ideas on law, justice, fraud and con men. So, apparently you very passionately support his anti-Objectivist notions? And my defending Rand and rationality is what's got you so extremely pissed off?

What's the deal? Why are you here, on an Objectivist site, if someone's defending Rand and rational justice enrages you?

Um, is the problem that you're so naive, gullible and stupid that you're fooled by someone's merely naming their enterprise "Laissez Faire" or "Galt's Gulch," and so gaga over those mere words that you can't think clearly about what theyre actually advocating?

As for your emotional rantings about my criticism of your boyfriend, what do think Rand would have to say about his statements that I criticized? Heh. I'm a cuddly little sweetheart compared to Rand and her methods of criticizing others. She would absolutely destroy "Wolf's" claiming to represent her or be based in her ideas, and his calling charlatan scum "Mulligans," "Roark's," and "Galt's," etc. She wouldn't be anywhere near as gentle as I've been. And she'd ask you to leave Objectvism alone and go away and support something else if you're so stupid as to attack my defense of her ideas.

So, pull your head out of your ass and actually start reading and critically thinking about what you're so pissed off that I criticized. Answer my criticism instead of crying and whining.

J

[Mikee]

That's it? Rand is rolling over in her grave with your "defense". Rand would prefer people stood on their own feet with a working brain rather than rote regurgitation of her works. Rand was an individualist, she could have had real discussions with Wolf, she would cut you off at the second sentence out of your mouth. So, you offer no defense of my accusations that you are a self obsessed liar but try to change the subject by an appeal to Rand and your superior 'rationality'. I'm supposed to carefully consider your ramblings when they are interspersed with insults and end with this:

"Can we arrange to meet briefly, alone in a dark alley or somewhere similar? After having learned so much more about you now, I'm eager to have that face-to-face encounter in which you imagine that you're going to set me straight and change my world. Please, let's set up a time and place that's convenient for you."

You can't have it both ways, Objectivist scholar and vengeful self obsessed bully. What is your personal philosophy 'standing on one foot'? How does it fit with wanting to be someone's personal demon from hell?

[Think of it as an intervention. Gratis. But Sunday is clean up day around my house...]

[william.scherk]

Jonathan has a really ugly attitude

and it's the reason he's a failure.

Whether or not Jonathan has a real ugly attitude expressed in this thread, how could you possible know if Jonathan is or is not a 'failure' in his life? Would you ever say that to someone's face -- when you knew nothing about their real life? (if you want to twit Jonathan for his invective or whatever, you will of course be reminded of your own vituperative moments ...)

In other news, I have been reading the Constitution of Government in Galt's Gulch -- in which Wolf contrasts the fictional Galt's Gulch with the real Laissez-Faire City. Following a link given by MSK in an earlier thread, other folks interested in this book can download it as a Zip file, courtesy of MSK's DropBox -- 'graciously provided' by Wolf: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aelf0t5uljoxtl4/Constitution_Galts_Gulch.zip

Another document of interest to those of us wondering 'what went wrong' in LFC, there is an article preserved by the Wayback machine that is presented as 'notes' on an audit: Laissez Faire City International Trust Notes To The Financial Statements For The Period 1995-2002

Edited September 20, 2015 by william.scherk

[Brant Gaede]

Rand would not have had a discussion with Wolf. I know this because she had fewer and fewer discussions as she got older and she had no discussion with Roy Childs respecting his letter to her. As for discussions in the 1950s, I'm sure they had to be to the supportive point of her novel under construction.

I suspect after Murray Rothbard and John Hospers she shut the door to outsiders for post-Atlas philosophical discussions. She had a lot of conversations with Deems Taylor about music.

Wolf's whole approach to ideas--call it centered on the political-economic--simply doesn't match up too well with the Rand-ethical, so even in a perfect world there wouldn't be much of a conversation the way there had been with Paterson in the early 1940s. The problem is confirmation bias. Neither Rand nor Wolf could have got much of that from either. It's a bias, I know, seductive and in a queer way sometimes desirable. It's natural to want to see ourselves in others to the extent even of passionate and romantic love.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

Yes, Rand would prefer that people think for themselves. That's what I'm asking you to do. Stop emoting and start addressing substance. Get over your crush and your surface attraction to whatever is fooling you about "Wolf." Start using your brain instead of your feelings.

You say that I didn't respond to your stupid accusations. Are you really so dense that you didn't grasp that my response was a rejection of your claims? I explained very clearly, so clearly that even you should be able to get it, that my alleged "lies" are legitimate, substantive criticisms which you're either too emotional or stupid to be able to answer.

As for your being upset about my offering to accept "Wolf's" fantasies (plural, as in he has made the threat twice on OL) of bashing my teeth in, it's hilarious that you're enraged that I'm offering to meet him and step up to the challenges, but you're not upset about his threats of initiation of force. What is it about "Wolf" that's got you so hypnotized and enamored? How can you find such an awkward and ineffective self-aggrandizer so appealing that you're willing to abandon all rationality over him and make a total fool of yourself?

J

[Brant Gaede]

Well, if two guys agree to have a fist fight--have fun!

It happened to me in junior high school. We met in an alley. Suddenly other boys showed up: "Fight, fight, fight!" We each got seconds and someone timed the rounds surrounded by about 12 others. It went on for one or two without much damage when a school security guy, likely from the high school next door (Tucson High School) showed up in a pickup truck and everybody scattered except me and the guy I was fighting.

It wasn't a real fight. In a real fight you try to really and badly hurt the other fellow, not ineffectually paw at each other's faces with balled up fists.

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

It's natural to want to see ourselves in others

I don't understand this. I've loved others, admired others, liked and respected others -- but they weren't me. I don't believe I've ever thought that someone else resembled me in thought or purpose or personality.

[Brant Gaede]

Wolf? Wolf? What happened to Wolf? Did he suddenly get smart about this conversation?

--Brant

when Mikee gets smart, it's all over

[Brant Gaede]

It's natural to want to see ourselves in others

I don't understand this. I've loved others, admired others, liked and respected others -- but they weren't me. I don't believe I've ever thought that someone else resembled me in thought or purpose or personality.

Opps. There ye be talking to me.

Those kinds of superficial resemblances are the least if any of it. But if you don't know what I'm talking about out of your own life's experiences . . .--I don't know how to explain it and be understood.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

So, you offer no defense of my accusations that you are a self obsessed liar...

In order to offer a defense against being arbitrarily accused of being a "liar," I'd need to hear specific examples that you had on mind in which you believed I was lying. Do you have any, or was "liar" just the first word that popped into your emotion-driven mind when you decide to throw your tantrum about my criticism of "Wolf's" very anti-Objectivist notions of justice? Please cite examples of my alleged lies. That is, if you can control your emotions long enough to do so.

J

[Brant Gaede]

"Liar" seems to be an arbitrary interjection in a conversation about opinions.

--Brant

[Mikee]

So, you offer no defense of my accusations that you are a self obsessed liar...

In order to offer a defense against being arbitrarily accused of being a "liar," I'd need to hear specific examples that you had on mind in which you believed I was lying. Do you have any, or was "liar" just the first word that popped into your emotion-driven mind when you decide to throw your tantrum about my criticism of "Wolf's" very anti-Objectivist notions of justice? Please cite examples of my alleged lies. That is, if you can control your emotions long enough to do so.

J

You are such a shameless, practiced liar I begin to wonder if anything about you is real. Are you really a painter? Is that how it works, follow one lie after another, tirelessly, until the beginning is lost and fades from memory? Nothing I said was about your bullshit "substantive criticisms" of Wolf. It was about your post saying you were going to get off Wolf's case...and then you didn't, you go on and on and on and on. And I said, Wolf called you out when he was angry, then dropped it, I fully recognized that Wolf started the whole thing, he said something similar to me once. So what. And Wolf and I are not friends, I criticised his work and in general he has no use for me. Are you so stupid you don't understand that I was calling you on your lying and lame attempts at driving someone off OL? Wolf is at least interesting, I do not care if I agree with everything he says, he makes interesting arguments and has a unique perspective. I have spoken up before about thin skinned whineing driving interesting people away. You are the worst. Like a god damned yapping toy poodle.

[Jonathan]

Hahahahaha! So now I'm lying about being a painter? Hahaha! Damn, you're an emotional mess!

You ask if I'm so stupid that I don't understand that you're calling me out on my "lying." The answer is that, no, I'm not so stupid, since I just addressed the issue in asking you to specifically identify the alleged lies that you believe I've told about your darling "Wolf." You didn't do so. Instead, you once again vented your little feelings.

And what in the hell are you talking about when you say that thin-skinned whining has driven people from OL? WTF? I don't whine. Rather, I attack. I attack Objectivish-inspired falsehoods and poses. I bring facts to correct idiot zealots' wrongheaded arguments and self-contradictions. I bring potent, substantive arguments that they can't answer, and so they slink away.

As for being interesting, my participation here generally causes more interest and readership than most other posters.

You're not very good at identifying reality, probably due to your being so ruled by your emotions.

J

[Mikee]

Hahahahaha! So now I'm lying about being a painter? Hahaha! Damn, you're an emotional mess!

You ask if I'm so stupid that I don't understand that you're calling me out on my "lying." The answer is that, no, I'm not so stupid, since I just addressed the issue in asking you to specifically identify the alleged lies that you believe I've told about your darling "Wolf." You didn't do so. Instead, you once again vented your little feelings.

And what in the hell are you talking about when you say that thin-skinned whining has driven people from OL? WTF? I don't whine. Rather, I attack. I attack Objectivish-inspired falsehoods and poses. I bring facts to correct idiot zealots' wrongheaded arguments and self-contradictions. I bring potent, substantive arguments that they can't answer, and so the slink away.

As for being interesting, my participation here generally causes more interest and readership than most other posters.

J

You evade again. I specifically said I wasn't talking about your remarks about Wolf. You are a bore, a habitual liar, and a nasty little man. Why don't you take a poll and count your fans?