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So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choi solely a combinion of instinomental stiulii. o 'good b" or "bar".

Gre

Is that so?

--Brant

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So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choices" are solely a combination of instinct and environmental stimulii. There is no 'good bear" or "bad bear".

Greg

Is that so?

--Brant

You're free to disagree. :wink:

Greg

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So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choices" are solely a combination of instinct and environmental stimulii. There is no 'good bear" or "bad bear".

Greg

Is that so?

--Brant

You're free to disagree. :wink:

Greg

About your infallibility?

--Brant

you need to disagree with yourself--for practice

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Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

Actually bonobos aren't sex crazed. That was the initial impression, but it's been shown that they use sex more as a way to ease tensions among the groups members and even welcome new ones.

They are actually related to chimps and the prevailing theory is that their territory has an abundance of food year round, whereas chimps inhabit an area with much less food therefore grew larger and more aggressive.

That said, pretty obvious where they fit in, orangutans are the welfare class (all those photos of fat ones sitting around) and baboons are legislators. :)

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So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choices" are solely a combination of instinct and environmental stimulii. There is no 'good bear" or "bad bear".

Greg

Is that so?

--Brant

You're free to disagree. :wink:

Greg

About your infallibility?

--Brant

you need to disagree with yourself--for practice

We have moral choice.

Bears do not.

Greg

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So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choices" are solely a combination of instinct and environmental stimulii. There is no 'good bear" or "bad bear".

Greg

Is that so?

--Brant

You're free to disagree. :wink:

Greg

About your infallibility?

--Brant

you need to disagree with yourself--for practice

We have moral choice.

Bears do not.

Greg

A bear ate my brother's best friend in Alaska. Got his girlfriend too.

--Brant

bad bear!

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Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

Actually bonobos aren't sex crazed. That was the initial impression, but it's been shown that they use sex more as a way to ease tensions among the groups members and even welcome new ones.

They are actually related to chimps and the prevailing theory is that their territory has an abundance of food year round, whereas chimps inhabit an area with much less food therefore grew larger and more aggressive.

That said, pretty obvious where they fit in, orangutans are the welfare class (all those photos of fat ones sitting around) and baboons are legislators. :smile:

Welcome to OL Micky,

Kinda like a semi-human Animal Farm...

How did you wander in here, Ayn?

Are you a worker, student, business person?

A...

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A bear ate my brother's best friend in Alaska. Got his girlfriend too.

--Brant

bad bear!

Neither bad bear nor good bear, Brant.... just bear.

Bears eat food. People are just food to bears. That's the law of nature. They're amoral and simply respond to environmental stimuli and their own innate instincts. A bear cannot choose to act contrary to its nature. Only people have that ability, and that is what makes them morally accountable for their choices.

I live next to thousands of acres of open land where everything is tearing the head off of everything else and eating it.

It ain't no Disney movie! :laugh:

Greg

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Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

Actually bonobos aren't sex crazed. That was the initial impression, but it's been shown that they use sex more as a way to ease tensions among the groups members and even welcome new ones.

They are actually related to chimps and the prevailing theory is that their territory has an abundance of food year round, whereas chimps inhabit an area with much less food therefore grew larger and more aggressive.

That said, pretty obvious where they fit in, orangutans are the welfare class (all those photos of fat ones sitting around) and baboons are legislators. :smile:

Welcome to OL Micky,

Kinda like a semi-human Animal Farm...

How did you wander in here, Ayn?

Are you a worker, student, business person?

A...

Thanks and that is indeed one's first impression. ;)

Long story short libertarianism lead to reading AS, which lead to more reading, and a year later I am here trying to make sense of it all. Objectivism seems right and wrong in equal parts, but the massive cognitive dissonance it causes makes me think it's right. :)

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Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

Actually bonobos aren't sex crazed. That was the initial impression, but it's been shown that they use sex more as a way to ease tensions among the groups members and even welcome new ones.

They are actually related to chimps and the prevailing theory is that their territory has an abundance of food year round, whereas chimps inhabit an area with much less food therefore grew larger and more aggressive.

That said, pretty obvious where they fit in, orangutans are the welfare class (all those photos of fat ones sitting around) and baboons are legislators. :smile:

Welcome to OL Micky,

Kinda like a semi-human Animal Farm...

How did you wander in here, Ayn?

Are you a worker, student, business person?

A...

Thanks and that is indeed one's first impression. ;)

Long story short libertarianism lead to reading AS, which lead to more reading, and a year later I am here trying to make sense of it all. Objectivism seems right and wrong in equal parts, but the massive cognitive dissonance it causes makes me think it's right. :smile:

Interesting choice of the tension of cognitive dissonance that directed you to seek a positive testing with others rather than rolling up into a cult ball.

Objectivism is fundamentally right in a macro sense.

However, it has a number of "not right" pieces and like any great explosion of intellect, one can be blinded by the pure perfection of reason.

Ayn was like that to me. However, there were parts that did not appear to be paved with rationality.

There were a few dark paths in Ayn's garden that lead nowhere and had the faithful stumble and fall.

Sometimes to their death, either moral, or, physical.

Where did you run into Libertarianism/libertarianism?

A...

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Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

Actually bonobos aren't sex crazed. That was the initial impression, but it's been shown that they use sex more as a way to ease tensions among the groups members and even welcome new ones.

They are actually related to chimps and the prevailing theory is that their territory has an abundance of food year round, whereas chimps inhabit an area with much less food therefore grew larger and more aggressive.

That said, pretty obvious where they fit in, orangutans are the welfare class (all those photos of fat ones sitting around) and baboons are legislators. :smile:

Welcome to OL Micky,

Kinda like a semi-human Animal Farm...

How did you wander in here, Ayn?

Are you a worker, student, business person?

A...

Thanks and that is indeed one's first impression. ;)

Long story short libertarianism lead to reading AS, which lead to more reading, and a year later I am here trying to make sense of it all. Objectivism seems right and wrong in equal parts, but the massive cognitive dissonance it causes makes me think it's right. :smile:

Interesting choice of the tension of cognitive dissonance that directed you to seek a positive testing with others rather than rolling up into a cult ball.

Objectivism is fundamentally right in a macro sense.

However, it has a number of "not right" pieces and like any great explosion of intellect, one can be blinded by the pure perfection of reason.

Ayn was like that to me. However, there were parts that did not appear to be paved with rationality.

There were a few dark paths in Ayn's garden that lead nowhere and had the faithful stumble and fall.

Sometimes to their death, either moral, or, physical.

Where did you run into Libertarianism/libertarianism?

A...

The cog diss lead me to seek something solid since I really had no place else to go. I felt modern liberals were absolutely wrong, cons were lesser of two evils etc, religion had failed me long ago and I just wasn't sure what to think anymore. I flirted with Bhuddhism due to its lack of an actual god, but the more I read the more I realized same thing, different storyline. L. Neil Smith's book The Probability Broach was my first real introduction to libertarianism, though I had no clue that that was what he was writing. I stumbled across a non-fiction book of his at a library which turned out to be waaaay over my head, so I went back to the TPB and decided I was going to be a secret libertarian. :) Eventually got on FB due to HS reunion, which lead to friends of friends etc so I "came out". That's when I finally read AS and then when I googled her I stumbled across interviews which lead to more googling etc. ARI etc lead to Dr. Peikoff's podcasts (watched about 70 of them so far, working my forward from #1) and now listening to his old radio shows mixed in for change of pace.

I could see some people losing their way, but I see that as their fault, not Objectivism. They are the ones who would be trying to cure gays, or bombing buildings in the name of Jesus if they went down a more traditional path.

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I thought you'd bear with me instead of throw the bear at me.

--Brant

hard to bear

I can barely stand this...

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I thought you'd bear with me instead of throw the bear at me.

--Brant

hard to bear

I can barely stand this...

So sadly the cross I bear...

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I flirted with Bhuddhism due to its lack of an actual god, but the more I read the more I realized same thing, different storyline. L. Neil Smith's book The Probability Broach was my first real introduction to libertarianism, though I had no clue that that was what he was writing. I stumbled across a non-fiction book of his at a library which turned out to be waaaay over my head, so I went back to the TPB and decided I was going to be a secret libertarian. :smile: Eventually got on FB due to HS reunion, which lead to friends of friends etc so I "came out". That's when I finally read AS and then when I googled her I stumbled across interviews which lead to more googling etc. ARI etc lead to Dr. Peikoff's podcasts (watched about 70 of them so far, working my forward from #1) and now listening to his old radio shows mixed in for change of pace.

I could see some people losing their way, but I see that as their fault, not Objectivism. They are the ones who would be trying to cure gays, or bombing buildings in the name of Jesus if they went down a more traditional path.

This astounded me because I cannot listen to 70 seconds of Peikoff, live or on tape.

So his skewered view of Objectivism is what I want to discuss with him.

A...

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I've listened to many LP podcasts. I find most of them good to average (mostly good). By that, I mean I usually find something interesting to think about, including his perspective.

Only some are goofy. But when LP wants to be goofy, boy, does he do it right. You wonder what he is smoking.

:)

Michael

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I've listened to many LP podcasts. I find most of them good to average (mostly good). By that, I mean I usually find something interesting to think about, including his perspective.

Only some are goofy. But when LP wants to be goofy, boy, does he do it right. You wonder what he is smoking.

:smile:

Michael

Michael:

Honestly, I have to recuse myself from a discussion of Peikoff.

I did not like him in Brooklyn when we were involved in certain larger groups of folks attempting to accomplish changes.

I detest what he did with Ayn's work and that is irredeemable in my mind.

Finally, his treatment of the B & B folks that we know and love at different levels makes him even more irredeemable that he did not even have the class to make peace with them.

If I could get a fresh look at the tapes through skippy's eyes, that would be a plus for me.

A...

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