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I dare anyone to watch the whole 2 minutes and 41 seconds of this video without cracking up.

 

What a surreal experience.

 

:smile:

 

 

I want to do my drip drip drip thing, but this is more like a fire hydrant that busted open.

 

Dayaamm!

 

LOL...

 

:smile:

 

Michael

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This ain't no astroturfing movement boys and girls...

Donald Trump is still talking immigration. And, unlike some in the Republican establishment, Arizona supporters seem to love it.

A speech "on illegal immigration and numerous other topics" by the real estate mogul and Republican presidential candidate had to be moved from a hotel to the Phoenix convention center "to accommodate the thousands of people expected to attend" the Saturday event.

The rally, which will also feature the city's anti-immigration Sheriff Joe Arpaio, already had 3,500 committed attendees Thursday evening when the campaign announced the venue change, according to the Arizona Republic newspaper. Arpaio has faced condemnation for his hard-line rhetoric on immigration and has been found by a federal judge to have violated the civil rights of Latinos.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-10/trump-s-arizona-speech-on-illegal-immigration-could-attract-thousands

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I'm friends with a former Objectivist Michael Prescott, a fantastic thriller writer.

To be precise, he's a distant friend, but still close enough for us to write to each other once in a while (mostly in the past) and be Facebook friends.

I mention this because once in a while, I post a witty meme or something like that from him on OL. I rarely attribute it because it is generally stuff that gets passed around, but the following comment and picture are pure Prescott:

He said:

So I hear Donald Trump is rolling into Phoenix today ...

07.11.2015-11.12.png

:)

Michael

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I'm friends with a former Objectivist Michael Prescott, a fantastic thriller writer.

To be precise, he's a distant friend, but still close enough for us to write to each other once in a while (mostly in the past) and be Facebook friends.

I mention this because once in a while, I post a witty meme or something like that from him on OL. I rarely attribute it because it is generally stuff that gets passed around, but the following comment and picture are pure Prescott:

He said:

So I hear Donald Trump is rolling into Phoenix today ...

07.11.2015-11.12.png

:smile:

Michael

A harbinger of doom for the Republican Party current rulers.

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This happens in Phoenix because of too much man-disturbed land nearby or land nature can disturb by wind. Some may come from vast acreage of abandoned cotton farms. All south of Phoenix. Not in Tucson, which has a lot of Sonoran Desert sustained by higher elevation and rainfall and arguably not a desert at all. Even the dust devils of my childhood have been suppressed by paving over, too.

That's called a "haboob," btw.

--Brant

oh, very funny

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David Brooks says we need more Bush, McCain and Dole and forget about silly Trump. Do more of what Bush, McCain and Dole did.

 

Also, watch out. Brooks says Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio now have their ire up about Trump.

 

 

So there.

 

Take that Donald Trump!

 

You are toast!

 

:smile:

 

Michael

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Apropos, I never stop being amazed at the capacity of people like Brooks to keep repeating the same distortions and treating them like facts.

I read comments all over the web from people who say they are sick and tired of idiots who claim Trump says all Mexicans are rapists.

I believe a cleansing of the mainstream media is starting to take place. It's a sewer, so no reason to get hopes too high. But at least people are starting to notice where some of the shit is clogging the flow.

Michael

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Michael, if you're anti-illegal immigration then you're against the founding fathers.

RR,

Sure.

You're right.

The Founding Fathers should have left the United States of America as a perfect government before they came along and screwed it all up.

:smile:

btw - The Mexican racism card is dead and dying. Except for me, maybe. It's obvious I'm a racist. I can't stand Latin Americans. That's why I spent 32 years of my life in Brazil and have two sons with a Brazilian woman.

If you wonder why I am against illegal immigration, check a premise or two instead of preaching MSNBC talking points and making silly rhetoric.

You might find there are actual ideas to discuss...

Michael

Of course the US wasn't perfect before the founding fathers came, but it's possible that with this next wave of Latin American immigrants the US will be even better if we accommodate them rather than oppose them.

It's not clear to me that all anti-immigrant sentiment is racist, but I don't see why people are complaining about immigration now. One would hope they'd have learned from the USA's long history of assimilating immigrants.

I do wonder if you're against illegal immigration or what your ideas might be for immigration reform. I think we should allow for Amnesty for all illegal immigrants due to our immigration policy being so irrational for so long (and because of the Mexican American War as well as other irrational initiations of force by the USA). We shouldn't allow criminals (people who initiated force) in this country, but when we've made millions of entrepreneurial hard working people who have never initiated force criminals, we shouldn't expect them to respect our borders. They are borders based on conquest, not on differing values. There are millions of legal Latin American immigrants in this country that aren't very different from the illegal ones.

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The unfortunate truth about America is that it was built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people.

RR,

I have a question.

Given you think this country sucks, why are you so concerned with getting illegal people here? Why don't you prefer for some of them to stay, for example, in Mexico, which obviously was not "built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people"?

Where have I written anything which indicates this country sucks? Nothing is perfect and anything which is good can sustain criticism. There are many wonderful things about the USA, but this country won't improve unless it is criticized.

I'm not concerned about getting illegal people here, I'm concerned with letting people who accept American values come to America. Historically, the laws have been racist and show favoritism to people from European countries (whose values are often less aligned with American values than some other places).

Are you concerned with enabling lazy Americans to collect welfare (which are legal for them to collect)? Do you think those people are more worthy of living in the USA than hard working Mexicans? (Who may break the law but help the US economy and would pay taxes if the immigration laws were rational.)

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I do wonder if you're against illegal immigration or what your ideas might be for immigration reform.

RR,

This is pretty easy. It's about the same as Trump's.

1. Build a big fucking wall.

2. Beef up the US government's immigration staff, make the process a lot faster, and put in reasonable requirements instead of the current boneheaded labyrinth for foreigners to come to the USA.

3. Take a long time going through the massive amount of illegals who are already here and give a path to working papers, then path to citizenship to the good guys (and their families) and send the bad guys back.

That's a start.

Take a look at Trump's words instead of what idiots are saying he said and you will find these ideas. I think they are reasonable.

On a rhetorical level, Trump is wonderfully effective at cutting through the PC bullying ("you're a racist!") so the ideas can get on the table and the immigration situation in the USA can stop being stupid. Or do you think the current immigration situation is the way things should be?

The idea is to not be stupid on shutting out everybody and not be stupid on accepting gangsters, terrorists and people like that. My position is to let good productive people in and keep garbage out.

Ayn Rand herself was an illegal immigrant because back then the process was dicey on accepting people from communist Russia. Even with those problems, I seriously doubt she would have thought it proper to allow entry to a wave of communist immigrants hellbent on taking over the USA government.

We need to get away from collectivist thinking and start looking at individuals when dealing with immigrants.

And that is precisely what Trump is proposing. That's one of the reasons I support him.

Michael

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Are you concerned with enabling lazy Americans to collect welfare (which are legal for them to collect)? Do you think those people are more worthy of living in the USA than hard working Mexicans? (Who may break the law but help the US economy and would pay taxes if the immigration laws were rational.)

RR,

This is worded in a fashion I don't know how to respond.

I am against welfare. I am for private enterprise and private charity.

Do I think illegal immigrants should get American welfare?

No.

Do I think Americans should get American welfare?

No.

Do I think the USA government should keep the money for American welfare?

No.

A reasonable solution for this last to me would be to dribble the money out to the people who have been on welfare until it is gone, then dismantle the welfare system.

Michael

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SS and Medicare are effectively welfare. And kind of like Ponzi schemes. Medicaid and Medicare are mostly socialist. Underneath socialist is fascist but it's somewhat muted in them. Obamacare is pure fascism in action as people are ripped out of their insurance plans, divorced from their doctors, and the "health care providers" are replaced with what's left over when and if you can even get to see them.

--Brant

but I like Michael's idea for working off of

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One of the funniest quips I have seen on the Internet about Trump is on Reddit. But the thread is so lame (it really is, about McDonald's, Jews and so on) I don't want to link to it.

However the quip is a gem (I am paraphrasing):

Donald Trump to cut ties with Donald Trump: "Fuck that guy," said Trump.

:)

Michael

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Michael, I think I understand your position better and think we agree on quite a bit. I wasn't intending to attack Trump, but I decided this would be a good opportunity for me to express extreme pro-immigrant sentiment.

I think a wall is overkill, the overwhelming majority of people who come from our Southern border are good people (and I'd bet that's also true of the people who get deported). The criminals/terrorists are a minority and there'd be even less of them if we didn't have a drug war and a horribly interventionist foreign policy. So it's collectivist to be anti-immigrant because of the actions of a few people.

I don't take the threat of immigrants taking over very seriously. I think it happens more on the opposite direction, ie Chinese immigrants are coming in increasing numbers but this will probably help the US take over China more than the other way around.

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I think a wall is overkill, the overwhelming majority of people who come from our Southern border are good people (and I'd bet that's also true of the people who get deported). The criminals/terrorists are a minority and there'd be even less of them if we didn't have a drug war and a horribly interventionist foreign policy. So it's collectivist to be anti-immigrant because of the actions of a few people.

So far, I have not been dazzled by your "reasoning power."

I do not particularly care whether everyone of these folks was a perfect person.

They still need to be allowed to come into our sovereign country and be subject to a set of rules.

End of discussion.

If we as a nation choose to reduce the spigot to 100 immigrants per year for the next two (2) years that will be our choice.

A...

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Donald Trump claims he is going to get the Latino vote if he is nominated.

 

Wanna see how?

 

 

That's how.

 

Showcase the family of people who have been killed by illegal immigrants. Mothers. Fathers. Other family members. And there are oodles: black, Latino, white and so on.

 

There are lots of Latinos killed by illegal immigrants and their families will have no problem coming forth in support of Trump.

 

This was raw footage. I was afraid the people were going to be scripted, but the way they talked was way too rough. These people were speaking from the heart. The mainstream media will spin this, of course, but over time, Trump's own press machine will, too. And there will be a lot more as the campaign progresses.

 

The press this time is not going to get to play dirty with victimization stories. They are going to get it right back in their faces.

 

Michael

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Does anyone know what time Trump is speaking and whether it is going to be broadcast? Streamed?

A....

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Adam,

Trump just finished his speech in Phoenix.

I'm sorry I didn't see your question earlier. There was an announcement to get the livestream on the main Drudge headline. It's no longer there.

I'm sure there will be videos all over the place soon.

Frankly, Trump is rough as hell, no polish, but what a speech. He connects like glue when he speaks off the cuff, except when he starts rambling. But he's smart enough to change the subject when he detects he is losing his audience. And he sure as hell doesn't need a teleprompter.

I swear, he is everything I had hoped Sarah Palin would be. I am almost 100% sure he will not have advisors fucking things up like they did with her.

The backlash from today is going to be humongous and nasty, but I don't think it's going to matter in the end.

Trump is a scrapper and people who have long been frustrated by top-down manipulation are feeling they now have a hero: an American good guy who is an outsider, not an enemy to the establishment, but a man who follows his own moral code enough to kick its ass when it gets out of line.

Trump dredged up Nixon's old phrase, "the silent majority," and it looks like he is now going to run with it. What's more, just look at what is happening with Trump's turnout. That phrase is accurate.

Michael

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I have an in between idea. Let the illegals be legals, in a delimited way. You can come in from Mexico and Central America if you pass a background check and will be given a work card ID. Then you can come and go. No voting, residence or citizenship. Bracero plus?

--Brant

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Here is Trump in front of the FreedomFest crowd, a much harder audience than the Phoenix venue he later went to.

 

I'm only 20 minutes into it and I will probably finish later (I've kinda overdosed on Trump today :smile: ), but he is winning over the crowd so far. The news reports say he killed it at FreedomFest, so I expect the crowd to warm up even more by the end.

 

 

Michael

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I went ahead and got it over with.

Trump handled a hostile questioner quite well, but everything else from the audience was supportive. Not wildly emotional, but no hecklers, either. Good solid applause at the end.

btw - At the beginning, Trump said he really likes Rand Paul. That they get along well and, irrespective of that, he likes Rand as a person.

Michael

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I think a wall is overkill, the overwhelming majority of people who come from our Southern border are good people (and I'd bet that's also true of the people who get deported). The criminals/terrorists are a minority and there'd be even less of them if we didn't have a drug war and a horribly interventionist foreign policy. So it's collectivist to be anti-immigrant because of the actions of a few people.

So far, I have not been dazzled by your "reasoning power."

I do not particularly care whether everyone of these folks was a perfect person.

They still need to be allowed to come into our sovereign country and be subject to a set of rules.

End of discussion.

If we as a nation choose to reduce the spigot to 100 immigrants per year for the next two (2) years that will be our choice.

A...

They are subject to a set of rules, in fact its a stricter set of rules than previous immigrants have faced...

I've heard that the incomes tax of 1913 was passed to prevent immigrants from accumulating too much money.

Whether or not it's true, there's a continuous pattern in the US of each group of immigrants passing laws and regulations that make it harder for the next group of immigrants to enjoy freedom. This is not sustainable. So long as we fear immigrants more than the incompetent Americans who are destroying this country we will never achieve the freedom that our forefathers enjoyed.

Ultimately, I think it's ridiculous to claim you deserve some special privilege because you were born in the USA. And I think the people who choose to come to the USA are frequently better citizens than those born here. This comes from Ayn Rand's own beliefs, when she was criticized for not being born in the USA she responded by saying that she made the choice to come to the USA, which made her more American than those born here who did not make an active choice.

I lived in California for a few years, by my estimate the illegal immigrants have a better work ethic than most native born Americans. It's truly sad that they've become a scapegoat for politicians based on a few bad apples.

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I think a wall is overkill, the overwhelming majority of people who come from our Southern border are good people (and I'd bet that's also true of the people who get deported). The criminals/terrorists are a minority and there'd be even less of them if we didn't have a drug war and a horribly interventionist foreign policy. So it's collectivist to be anti-immigrant because of the actions of a few people.

So far, I have not been dazzled by your "reasoning power."

I do not particularly care whether everyone of these folks was a perfect person.

They still need to be allowed to come into our sovereign country and be subject to a set of rules.

End of discussion.

If we as a nation choose to reduce the spigot to 100 immigrants per year for the next two (2) years that will be our choice.

A...

They are subject to a set of rules, in fact its a stricter set of rules than previous immigrants have faced...

I've heard that the incomes tax of 1913 was passed to prevent immigrants from accumulating too much money.

Whether or not it's true, there's a continuous pattern in the US of each group of immigrants passing laws and regulations that make it harder for the next group of immigrants to enjoy freedom. This is not sustainable. So long as we fear immigrants more than the incompetent Americans who are destroying this country we will never achieve the freedom that our forefathers enjoyed.

Ultimately, I think it's ridiculous to claim you deserve some special privilege because you were born in the USA. And I think the people who choose to come to the USA are frequently better citizens than those born here. This comes from Ayn Rand's own beliefs, when she was criticized for not being born in the USA she responded by saying that she made the choice to come to the USA, which made her more American than those born here who did not make an active choice.

I lived in California for a few years, by my estimate the illegal immigrants have a better work ethic than most native born Americans. It's truly sad that they've become a scapegoat for politicians based on a few bad apples.

What is sad, is that you appear not to "hear" what I am stating.

First, not only do I not fear immigrants, 90 % of the people that I have known in my life, do not fear immigrants either.

Second, we have an absolute right to control who enters our nation and whether we want them to.

Third, you insist on making unproven claims about us being a "nation of immigrants" and conflating an immigrant from Amsterdam and England immigrating, legally to the British colony in Massachusetts is equivalent with an Irish immigrant that came in the 18th century and the Italian immigrant from the early 1900's and a current Costa Rican immigrant.

Differences between the current Costa Rican immigrant and the pre 1922 immigrant are:

1) legal entry;

2) medical exam;

3) sponsorship;

4) no safety net other than family and charity.

Respond to that please, then we can proceed.

A...

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