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On 12/11/2020 at 11:21 PM, Ellen Stuttle said:

. . .

"One if by land, and two if by sea...".  

 

"One if by land, two if by sea, three if by Delta shuttle from LaGuardia"

That was a light moment of his term in office.

The main things serious were two: In April 2017, President Trump should have sent the budget bill back to Ryan and said cut everything proportionally as is so as to make expenditure match expected revenues. That would have been of historic significance and a plus. Secondly, Mr. Trump appointed more anti-abortionist Justices to the Supreme Court, moving along the long Republican struggle of ending legality of elective abortions (first trimester) in the US. Those successful appointments may have a good effect in the future, I hope, in clipping Eminent Domain cases back to a more reasonable concordance of "public use" with that language in the Constitution. 

One smaller thing I liked was the easing of governmental restrictions on methane emissions. The shift in modern times from common defense against foreign attack to common defense against every sort of physical harm (even a global harm alleged in this case) needs bounding by rational principles, expressly formulated (don't recall seeing any from any quarter). Environmentalism seems to be tops for many Democrats today, even more than "income inequality" (anemic descendant of the old concern for the impoverished). Plenty of solid reasons to oppose Democrats by and large.

My older sister voted for Trump/Pence both times. But she is disgusted with Mr. Trump's behavior vis-a-vis the 2020 election results, and she has at last stopped watching television news altogether. (This household quit that altogether a couple of years ago.) She does not have a computer, so I still make hardcopy photo prints for her. The first election she recalls was between Dewey and Truman. She favored Dewey because he had a mustache (she was only eight and was a fan of Clark Gable).

My younger sister was an avid fan of Donald Trump as President. She died last January. There is a gallows-humor sort of thing about what one did not live to see. My brother died in 2001, but before having to witness the atrocity in New York.

 

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That's what it says at the top of the page.  Your point?  It's not like this thread has devolved into a medley of cat videos.  Yet.  

It is intriguing.  I've been fairly obsessed for about a year with thinking about details.  I find microbiology fascinating. I wouldn't be wise, however, to talk about details.  The schemers are

They see suave, debonair Frisco giving a philosophically deep money speech, or John Galt taking over a radio presentation and addressing the audience in the manner of a professor. If they don't see th

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3 hours ago, merjet said:

... a smug pro-Trumper based on pigeonholing, psychologizing, and fabrication... 

. . .

I’m not surprised MSK liked your post. He’s fond of pigeonholing, psychologizing, fabricating, and smears.

Just like a rooster crowing at dawn, here it comes. It's all about Merlin and him trying to pick a fight with OL members.

Cock-a-doodle-doooooooooo!!!

Who cares?

:) 

Michael

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On 12/12/2020 at 8:45 AM, anthony said:

I'm afraid to say that as the tide turns in their numerical favor, grabbing more power, I am going to have to get used to hearing smug intellectualists like this.  

Tony,

I only skimmed the article before. Just now I tried to read it. Yet I kept bumping up against these kind of phrases:

Quote

Christianists now believe that Trump has been selected by God to save them from persecution and the republic from collapse.

. . .

... white evangelical Christianists are the most critical constituency in Republican politics. If you ask yourself how on earth so many people have become convinced that the 2020 election was rigged, with no solid evidence, and are now prepared to tear the country apart to overturn an election result, you’ve got to take this into account.

. . .

Biden’s victory was not God’s will. Therefore it couldn’t have happened. That’s the core conviction.

I had to stop reading--and this was at the beginning. Why waste time on this garbage?

Sullivan's got a bug up his ass about white Christians (here we go with the racism again). It sounds like Sullivan never heard of a black Christian church before.

Here are the three quotes in order.

 

1. I have heard some Christians say they believe Trump was selected by God, but then, during Barack Obama's first election, I heard some Christians--a lot, actually, black and white, say they believed he was selected by God. 

So what?

One of the core principles of the US is freedom of religion. That means freedom to believe what one wants to believe.

I keep talking about "core story." One of the core stories of America that has persisted since the founding is that the President is like Moses. People don't usually say it with this clarity since it is an archetype, but it's there. And it's not just the Christian version of Moses.

Just recently, Barack Obama was Moses leading America to the Promised Land of no more oppressing blacks and minorities. Hillary Clinton was a female Moses leading America to the Promised Land of no more oppressing women.

The Moses archetype for presidential candidates is a pretty valid one from what I have seen and lived through. I got this idea years ago from a French marketing consultant named Clotaire Rapaille. (I don't agree with everything this dude says, but he certainly makes you think.)

So I see denigrating white Christians for believing in their own Moses archetype as President as nothing but hating white Christians. I wish it were deeper than that because Sullivan actually is intelligent and usually goes deeper (from the things of his I have read), but in this case, based on his own words, hating white Christians is all I see.

2.  Now look at this beauty. To Sullivan, the reason people believe the election was rigged "with no solid evidence" is because of white Christians. At least this is a substantial reason. Heh.

How about it's because they have eyeballs? The people saying the election was rigged are not hiding anything or trying to shut people down from speaking. The people who claim there is no solid evidence of rigging are shutting speech down left and right. Or they are refusing to look. (Some of this is not their fault when all they consume in media is the mainstream fake news culture.)

They are the ones who looked at violent riots with cars and buildings burning and called the riots "peaceful protests." Sullivan bashes "fundamentalist certainty," but is there any clearer example of fundamentalist certainty than a person who looks at violence and fire and calls it "peaceful"?

Until these kinds of fundamentalists look, there is no way to discuss this with them. They look at fire and call it water.

3. I have not heard Christians say Biden's victory was not God's will. That's an inference Sullivan makes from those who believe Trump was chosen by God, but he is calling it a "core belief." It isn't. Biden has nothing to do with their core beliefs. When Christians talk about Biden, when they actually do go to their core beliefs, they usually talk about Satan. :) 

 

I don't know why this hatred of white Christians, but it exists.

You are right to bash this article. It's trash. 

Michael

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Here is an example of shutting speech down and not looking (Jocelyn Benson, not Sidney Powell).

The people who say the election is rigged never do what Jocelyn Benson is doing and they are even crucifying Republicans who are doing it.

But...

... muh white Christians...

How about muh white baloney? After all, baloney is approximately the color of white people.

And it equally has no relevance to seeing a rigged election...

Michael

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On 12/12/2020 at 6:45 AM, anthony said:

And "Fusion of religion and politics by the Right"? What hypocrisy. There is nowhere in the world that Christians have any more appetite for a theocracy, least, the USA, I think.

Andrew Sullivan is not a bad writer, and he packs a lot of accusation in the one article.  Here he talks about the animating evangelical spirit (of his clunky term "Christianism") ...

Quote

But the long-established network of evangelical churches and pastors, and the unique power of an actual religion to overwhelm reason, gives the right an edge when it comes to total suspension of disbelief. Christianists are not empiricists or skeptics. They’re believers. This time around, it’s belief in a “multi-layered, multi-dimensional” conspiracy involving hundreds of people in several states, rejected by almost every court. You can fact-check that as easily as you can fact-check the Resurrection.

And Trump is at the center of their belief system now, which includes all his lies. The relationship of many with him is that of evangelicals and their pastor: a male, patriarchal figure who cannot be questioned and must be obeyed. Trump’s political genius has been in sniffing out this need to believe, and filling it, all the time, tweet by tweet, lie by lie, con by con. No wonder Trump Trutherism is now a litmus test for the Christianist faith, and therefore for all Republican office-holders. In January, if all else fails, they will try to force the US Congress to take a stand, with every GOP member on the line. It’s yet another brick removed from the foundation of the republic.

To survive, liberal democracy must have some level of moderation, some acceptance of the legitimacy of the other side, and room for compromise. It has to be based in empiricism, shared truth, deliberation and doubt. Fundamentalist religion has none of those qualities. It’s all or nothing. 

All or nothing. 

From YouTube, former Evangelical Holy Kookaid.

(34) Evangelicals Freak Out - YouTube

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Trump supporters cut across a large swath.

‘USA! USA!’ Chants Erupt As Trump Takes The Field At Army-Navy Game

Quote

President Donald Trump walked onto the field at Saturday’s Army-Navy football game to cheers and chants of “USA! USA!”

Although the crowd at West Point’s Michie Stadium was visibly smaller than previous years due to coronavirus restrictions — limited to students and Department of Defense leadership — those in attendance made their voices heard when Trump took the field.

Hear it for yourself.

Also this happened:

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image.png

:)

Michael

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President Trump in an exclusive interview with Fox News:

Trump brags about 'money that's pouring in' and disavows violent rallies - YouTube

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6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

 

1. I have heard some Christians say they believe Trump was selected by God, but then, during Barack Obama's first election, I heard some Christians--a lot, actually, black and white, say they believed he was selected by God. 

So what?

One of the core principles of the US is freedom of religion. That means freedom to believe what one wants to believe.

I keep talking about "core story." One of the core stories of America that has persisted since the founding is that the President is like Moses. People don't usually say it with this clarity since it is an archetype, but it's there. And it's not just the Christian version of Moses.

Just recently, Barack Obama was Moses leading America to the Promised Land of no more oppressing blacks and minorities. Hillary Clinton was a female Moses leading America to the Promised Land of no more oppressing women.

 

 

I don't know why this hatred of white Christians, but it exists.

You are right to bash this article. It's trash. 

Michael

Michael, penetrating thoughts. "So what?" I echo, that Christians are - well, "Christian", and believe ultimately that everyone is a creation of God? And certain individuals, selected by God? One either accepts their premises and carries on, or will grow frustrated and angry trying to defeat them. What are we going to do with them? Cast them out so we can ascend to a glorious Utopia? (Hmm.)

If it doesn't pick my purse ... etc. With the usual caveats that they don't try to force faith on others.

You have got to the crux, that their mythical story is merely repeated by secularists. Who supposedly, superficially deplore belief. (Rand opened that door for my better understanding, simply, that is a replacement of mystical faith with the same in another guise - the People, the State, the Globe - Earth).

I thought about this often when I'd heard, during Obama's terms, from American Conservatives, some, ex-SAfricans, I know. Their broad telling was that we don't necessarily like his doings, but he IS our president and therefore deserves our respect (at times, affection). You have brought that extra dimension I didn't quite get.

I.e. "If he became the president of the US of A, then he too was God-selected..."

The logic is irrefutable. Ha.

i reiterate, the values that they uphold are serious values: e.g. quality of character is much more prevalent - and valued - among them than anything remotely shown by the Left. Patriotism for an objectively "good" nation, another. We know many such Christians in our countries who are living successful, productive, honest, self-reliant and happy lives. Match that boys, then you might have earned the right to slam Christians.

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9 minutes ago, anthony said:

You have got to the crux, that their mythical story is merely repeated by secularists.

Tony,

During Obama's first election, his rallies rivaled backwoods church revivals where people talk in tongues. It was very common for women at Obama rallies to swoon at the sight of him. And they weren't faking it. They actually fainted from being dazzled.

Boy, did that particular Moses end up being a dud. Instead of a Promised Land of healing racism and creating prosperity for blacks, he ramped up racism and blacks were no better off at the end of his presidency than they were at the beginning.

But Wall Street was a lot better and so was the endless war for profit machine. And, frankly, so was China.

Michael

 

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28 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

During Obama's first election, his rallies rivaled backwoods church revivals where people talk in tongues. It was very common for women at Obama rallies to swoon at the sight of him. And they weren't faking it. They actually fainted from being dazzled.

Boy, did that particular Moses end up being a dud. Instead of a Promised Land of healing racism and creating prosperity for blacks, he ramped up racism and blacks were no better off at the end of his presidency than they were at the beginning.

.

Michael

 

I have not so far told of a chat I had with an American who wryly said: President Obama was our Act of Contrition, for every American, religious and secular.

Like having your very own "Mandela Moment" as we here, I probed and he agreed.

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Just an aside while I'm on the topic. What was never grasped by his detractors who called him "authoritarian" on his "bully pulpit", is that Trump is and was authoritarian *against* the authoritarians. A bully against the bullies. Vilifying the truly vile propagandist media. Who in justice more than deserved it. He'd obviously seen (what I caught glimpses of from CNN and other sources over 5 years ago), the rise of a new anti-American leftism. Dictatorial, etc, etc.?

Nope, watch his actions and everything he acted towards was a reversion to the fundamental self-responsible freedom of (most) Americans. That basic, anti-authoritarian Americanism, looked to by some of us here. You may choose to wear your masks, or not - and so on. For which he'll be eternally condemned by those who need "an example set" to follow, the children who most need a 'moral leader', without a morality of their own.

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Evangelical support for Trump is strongPaula White-Cain is his spiritual adviser

I wonder if my lack of faith in the supernatural prevents me from seeing the truth.  Mahanda agasaka eké yamánda rabokosokó tarandaya kanda ekeseke la mama manga rabakasé maga maga.

Trump's Faith Advisor Paula White Is Now a White House Staffer | NowThis - YouTube

 

Edited by william.scherk
Added tweet containing Paula White-Cain talking to Fox News; added link to Pew findings
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11 hours ago, merjet said:

LOL. A sneering piece of “intellectualism” from a smug pro-Trumper based on pigeonholing, psychologizing, and fabrication. Sullivan said nothing at all about theocracy, yet that’s what you try to cram in his mouth. Sullivan is not a leftist like Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren, AOC, Nancy Polosi, or Adam Schiff, yet that’s how you pigeonhole him. For example, elsewhere he has been very critical of wokeness that is so popular with leftists. Sullivan said nothing about Islamic “Fundamentalism.” It’s nice that you noticed that while trying to smear him for it. Finally, not surprisingly, you sweep under the rug any fusion of religion and politics from right-wingers who talk with religious fervor as if Trump is a savior.

I’m not surprised MSK liked your post. He’s fond of pigeonholing, psychologizing, fabricating, and smears.

Fact is, a head line that reads:

Christianism And Our Democracy

The fusion of religion and politics on the right has made moderation impossible.

...the first implication is of a theocracy. Stating, our democracy is under attack by "Christianism", the "fusion of religion and politics". What does that 'fusion' tell you?

I might suppose and have, that when people have been long enough exposed to leftism they may not recognize the tell-tale signs from a writer.

And yes, never have I seen any concern about Islamic Fundamentalism from the Left. Apparently that gets a pass. From e.g. the feminists whom you'd think would be most disgusted about treatment of Muslim women. A dead silence. The Fundie's at home are an easier target, and seldom defend themselves. 

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11 hours ago, anthony said:

Fact is, a head line that reads:

Christianism And Our Democracy

The fusion of religion and politics on the right has made moderation impossible.

...the first implication is of a theocracy.

....

And yes, never have I seen any concern about Islamic Fundamentalism from the Left.

You get an F in logic, but have your way -- a pro-Trump theocracy led by Trump and his spiritual advisor Paula White-Cain. She can be the mystic of spirit and he the mystic of muscle. 😄 😃

....

That's more of your pigeonholing and lack of focus, and you are wrong again. Andrew Sullivan is not "the Left." 

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/tag/islam/

Enjoy your upvote from an idiot.

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13 hours ago, merjet said:

You get an F in logic, but have your way -- a pro-Trump theocracy led by Trump and his spiritual advisor Paula White-Cain. She can be the mystic of spirit and he the mystic of muscle. 😄 😃

....

That's more of your pigeonholing and lack of focus, and you are wrong again. Andrew Sullivan is not "the Left." 

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/tag/islam/

Enjoy your upvote from an idiot.

I think your trouble is that you would not see the way to individual freedom if you tripped over it. That's the basic Trump direction, if you could see past the inessentials. Independent USA, independent Americans. Tell me where Biden/Harris promise self-responsible freedom, in the good old American model?

Dire warnings of a theocracy from lefties and communists have been around forever, taking the gullibles' attention off what arrives through the back door, socialism and nanny states. Misdirection works. Christians haven't any longer the majorities for a theocracy, they know this. They have lost the urge, except for trying to - peaceably - influence a pro-life policy. And they have learned from experience that you can't convert others' 'souls' by force. An insincere conversion is easily recanted. So they gave up permanently. But muscular socialists can, and do, and have no qualms with using the force to make it stick.

 

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15 hours ago, anthony said:

Nope, watch his actions and everything he acted towards was a reversion to the fundamental self-responsible freedom of (most) Americans. That basic, anti-authoritarian Americanism, looked to by some of us here. You may choose to wear your masks, or not - and so on. For which he'll be eternally condemned by those who need "an example set" to follow, the children who most need a 'moral leader', without a morality of their own.

Tony,

The left has its own morality and its religion, too. Here is what leftie morality and religion look like when the left manages to elect a president. 

From Barack Obama: A Traitor for the Ages at American Thinker by John Eidson (Feb. 19, 2020).

Quote

As president, Obama appointed an assortment of people with extreme-left views to key positions in his administration, including: former White House green jobs czar Van Jones, a self-avowed communist; FCC chief diversity officer Mark Lloyd, who expressed admiration for Venezuela’s communist strongman, Hugo Chavez; White House communications director Anita Dunn, who told a high school graduating class that Mao is one of her most admired philosophers; and, White House manufacturing czar Ron Bloom, who said he agrees with Mao that “political power comes largely at the barrel of a gun.”

If Biden did manage to pull off the steal (which he won't), imagine what his people would be like. There would be much more like the above than under President Obama. Biden is being run by a machine far more than Obama was (although he was, too).

Hardcore lefties worship the communism brand of power and the barrel of a gun as their way to keep it.

Don't think they won't use it on the country's citizens--innocent citizens, too.

People like that always do.

Michael

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9 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

The left has its own morality and its religion, too. Here is what leftie morality and religion look like when the left manages to elect a president. 

From Barack Obama: A Traitor for the Ages at American Thinker by John Eidson (Feb. 19, 2020).

If Biden did manage to pull off the steal (which he won't), imagine what his people would be like. There would be much more like the above than under President Obama. Biden is being run by a machine far more than Obama was (although he was, too).

Hardcore lefties worship the communism brand of power and the barrel of a gun as their way to keep it.

Don't think they won't use it on the country's citizens--innocent citizens, too.

People like that always do.

Michael

I'd have voted for Obama, first term, my misgivings began later.

The "Legacy" must not be stopped. There I'm sure was the cause of some of the unbelievable outrage, when President Trump rudely interrupted the handover from Obama to Clinton.

 

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1 hour ago, anthony said:

I think your trouble is that you would not see the way to individual freedom if you tripped over it.

Ditto to you. You seem unhinged.

1 hour ago, anthony said:

Tell me where Biden/Harris promise self-responsible freedom, in the good old American mold?

I haven't been posting about them. Stop trying to change the subject.

1 hour ago, anthony said:

[Blah, blah, blah]

 

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20 minutes ago, merjet said:

Ditto.

I haven't been posting about them. Stop trying to change the subject.

 

What is the subject? It says Donald Trump at the top. Seeing you have showed a fervent dislike of him, I assume Biden/Harris were your choice.

I'm one step ahead of you, the personal experience of socialism in Zim and here, not just in theory. You wouldn't like it.

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1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

The left has its own morality and its religion, too. Here is what leftie morality and religion look like when the left manages to elect a president. 

From Barack Obama: A Traitor for the Ages at American Thinker by John Eidson (Feb. 19, 2020).

If Biden did manage to pull off the steal (which he won't), imagine what his people would be like. There would be much more like the above than under President Obama. Biden is being run by a machine far more than Obama was (although he was, too).

Hardcore lefties worship the communism brand of power and the barrel of a gun as their way to keep it.

Don't think they won't use it on the country's citizens--innocent citizens, too.

People like that always do.

Michael

Michael, On a tangent, I recommend the Douglas Murray video. There is a vicious streak of vengeance in these 'new religionists', the intersectionalists, which he recognizes, and I called it many years ago here in South Africa, whites would be receiving our pay back.

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2 hours ago, anthony said:

What is the subject?

...

I assume Biden/Harris were your choice.

...

I'm one step ahead of you

Wow, you are that far out of focus!

.....

Wrong again.

.....

LOL. 😄 😃 😀

Wow, you somehow believe your arrogance is a rational argument!

The OO folks were correct. Trying to have a rational discussion with you is a total waste of time.

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