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12 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

All of them are guilty of premeditated mass murder.

All of them need to hang.

Their describing Trump as a threat to "our" way of life is macabrely ironic.  He's a threat to their way of killing.

However, what's new about the Tweet announcement you posted?  Hasn't it been known for a long time that the Bush administration didn't have evidence of Iraq's possessing weapons of mass destruction?

Ellen

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1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said:
13 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

All of them are guilty of premeditated mass murder.

All of them need to hang.

 

Their describing Trump as a threat to "our" way of life is macabrely ironic.  He's a threat to their way of killing.

However, what's new about the Tweet announcement you posted?  Hasn't it been known for a long time that the Bush administration didn't have evidence of Iraq's possessing weapons of mass destruction?

The tweet leads to an unsigned story at True Pundit, which has at its bottom a "Read More" link that leads to ... a 2015 Jason Leopold story in VICE:

The CIA Just Declassified the Document That Supposedly Justified the Iraq Invasion

Leopold is now a 'senior investigative reporter' at BuzzFeedNews.

 

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1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Their describing Trump as a threat to "our" way of life is macabrely ironic.  He's a threat to their way of killing.

However, what's new about the Tweet announcement you posted?  Hasn't it been known for a long time that the Bush administration didn't have evidence of Iraq's possessing weapons of mass destruction?

Ellen

The article says the NIE previously released was redacted to worthlessness and that a new, unredacted version has been released.

Sorry if there is nothing there new to you. I must say I see neither the point nor any value in “nothing new.” Killery was proven to be a murderess decades ago and anyone who cares to know that can easily come to know that. Should I keep quiet about it, since it isn’t new?

https://truepundit.com/the-cia-just-declassified-the-document-that-justified-the-iraq-invasion-the-bush-white-house-looks-very-very-very-bad/

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1 hour ago, william.scherk said:

 

The tweet leads to an unsigned story at True Pundit, which has at its bottom a "Read More" link that leads to ... a 2015 Jason Leopold story in VICE:

The CIA Just Declassified the Document That Supposedly Justified the Iraq Invasion

Leopold is now a 'senior investigative reporter' at BuzzFeedNews.

 

Stay out of the adult conversations, Asshole.

No one here except Michael and Jonathan want to talk to you, Ellen especially does not and you know it well. She has made herself clear about you and so have I. What you’re doing here is pure harassment.

Fuck off and go answer Jonathan at your climate doom hysteria blog.

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This is an interesting letter about war with Iraq, after 9/11. Where were our minds headed, back then Does it still hold some truth? Peter

From: "Patrick Stephens" To: objectivism Subject: OWL: Root causes and logical errors Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:15:16 -0500

Christopher Cole questions the logic behind my logic assertion that responsibility for aggression lies with the aggressor. He also makes the claim that U.S. sanctions against Iraq empower the dictatorship by giving them a defacto monopoly on food and medicine. He further compares U.S. foreign policy to a man who arms a murderer and restrains the victims.

I beg to differ. The monopoly power that Hussein exercises over food and medicine is the same monopoly power that the warlords of Somalia exercised over their countrymen--it is the monopoly of the gun. Sanctions or no sanctions--Saddam Hussein will starve his people. Sanctions or no sanctions--Saddam Hussein will kill his people. (Some people have claimed that the mere evidence of increased suffering since the trade sanctions is evidence that the sanctions are causing increased suffering. But this is a logical fallacy--specifically it is the post hoc ergo procter hoc error. Further evidence would be required to establish a causal link between sanctions and starvation. None of analysis that attributes starvation to sanctions can provide objective evidence--or even an objective methodology--for its conclusions.) Trade sanctions do not give Saddam a monopoly--the fact that he murders his competitors and uses force to starve his own people gives him a monopoly. The trade sanctions have long allowed for the sale of food to Iraq--through the "oil for food" program. Hussein rejects that program, offering instead to sell Iraqi oil for personal aggrandizement. But again, the issue that I responded to has nothing to do with sanctions as such. It has to do with accountability and responsibility.

Far from arming the enemy, the U.S. has gone to war with Iraq--we still enforce "no fly" zones and keep constant pressure--both diplomatic and military--on Hussein. Far from restraining his victims, we enforce the northern "no fly" zone largely to protect the Kurds from Hussein. An area, by the way, that has benefited from the "oil-for-food" program (usually called trade) to buy food rather than palaces for Hussein--actions they can take only because of U.S. protection.

But the point is even simpler than that. We are not trading with Iraq – if people wish to make the case that the sanctions are unjustifiable infringements on the right of U.S. citizens to trade freely, they are free to do so -- but to argue that trade sanctions make us complicit in Hussein's murders is simply astonishing. We have refused--as a matter of policy and national security--not to enrich a tyrant who has made his murderous plans clear. When we refuse to negotiate with a tyrant, we do not assume responsibility for the tyrant's actions. Frankly, this seems rather self-evident.

I hesitated to make this analogy in my first post, but I'll make it here. In the 1940's the United States enforced a trade embargo against the Axis powers. Did our refusal to trade with Germany make us complicit in the deaths of those millions of people that Germany starved? Or does the responsibility for the Holocaust lie entirely with the Nazis?

Again, I want to make clear -- I have no interest in debating sanctions as a policy tool. But the issue of moral responsibility seems clear enough—the responsibility for a murder lies with the murderer--not with those who oppose the murder. However, on the topic of sanctions, I recommend the following article, an excellent analysis of the Iraq sanctions: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-stewart120501.shtml. I offer a quote from that article:

"In a debate at Georgetown University less than a month after the September 11 attacks, EPIC's executive director, Eric Gustafson, claimed that sanctions have helped keep Hussein in power, because Iraqis "rally around the flag in times of war or economic tragedies." Though that may be true where people are free to express themselves, Iraqis do so at the point of a gun or under the cudgel of a secret policeman. As we have seen in Afghanistan and elsewhere, when oppressive regimes are toppled, the people rejoice in their newfound freedom. Former CIA director James Woolsey said it well in a recent interview: When the oppressive regime is lifted in Iraq, "there will be dancing in the streets of Baghdad." Let us hope that the sanctions soon become moot, and the people, free."

Patrick Stephens Manager of Current Affairs The Objectivist Center

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4 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Sorry if there is nothing there new to you. I must say I see neither the point nor any value in “nothing new.” Killery was proven to be a murderess decades ago and anyone who cares to know that can easily come to know that. Should I keep quiet about it, since it isn’t new?

Prickly, prickly.  Did I say you should keep quiet about it?  No.  Nor did I say "nothing new."  I asked what is new in the recently declassified document.

Ellen

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I knew the forthcoming invasion of Iraq nearly 17 years ago was based on crap. I think most interested people knew it then, but too many wanted to take out the bad boy. A libertarian named Tim Star was all for it. He even started a Yahoo Group dedicated to it.

--Brant

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1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Prickly, prickly.  Did I say you should keep quiet about it?  No.  Nor did I say "nothing new."  I asked what is new in the recently declassified document.

Ellen

Yes, prickly, prickly.

You asked what is new, yes, and that was 29% of that paragraph. Then follows another sentence I seem to have misinterpreted. Tell me how I should interpret it.

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19 hours ago, william.scherk said:

 

The tweet leads to an unsigned story at True Pundit, which has at its bottom a "Read More" link that leads to ... a 2015 Jason Leopold story in VICE:

The CIA Just Declassified the Document That Supposedly Justified the Iraq Invasion

Leopold is now a 'senior investigative reporter' at BuzzFeedNews.

 

Ya  gotta love the fact that they still think that their Narratives™ are working.

J

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18 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Fuck off and go answer Jonathan at your climate doom hysteria blog.

Unfortunately, Billy doesn't have any answers, and, as Ellen has successfully argued, he doesn't understand the questions and their relevance to science. He doesn't grasp any of it.

J

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Deep thoughts.

Jules Troy wrote, “And ISIS was somehow better Peter?  Hindsight I guess...”

What if? What if we had concentrated our revenge for 9/11 and strateeg–eree on ISIS and its supporters instead of Saddam, President George W. Bush? Would Saddam still be a thorn in our sides? Would Iraq have fought another war with Iran neutralizing both their country’s potential abilities to do international harm? Would Saddam have sent Scuds into Israeli territory dragging us into a war supporting our ally, Israel?

I do remember we found tons of “yellow cake” in Iraq, which is a precursor to building an atomic bomb. It caused a stir when it was shipped back to the United States and the shipment may have traversed Canadian air space or railroads if I remember correctly.  The only other thing I remember about that situation was that Saddam bought the yellow cake ingredients in southern Africa.

Here is an interesting puzzle. What wars did America fight that were “just and moral wars?” Were all of them retaliatory other than our fights with indigenous Indians? On the no side I remember IFFY skirmishes with Canada, (Spain?) and Mexico but other than that? And don’t forget, we did not go the coloinization way of The British Empire and try to incorporate, to a Large Degree, the globe into our sphere of interest. Does anyone still refer to us as “ugly Americans?” We strove for dominance but not for colonization.

I have my eyes wide open now that President Trump has used the phrase, "endless war," and our desire to stifle the "deep state." I am amazed and almost in awe. Peter  

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Emphasis added ...

22 hours ago, william.scherk said:
23 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

However, what's new about the Tweet announcement you posted?  Hasn't it been known for a long time that the Bush administration didn't have evidence of Iraq's possessing weapons of mass destruction?

The tweet leads to an unsigned story at True Pundit, which has at its bottom a "Read More" link that leads to ... a 2015 Jason Leopold story in VICE:

The CIA Just Declassified the Document That Supposedly Justified the Iraq Invasion

The "Just Declassified" (in 2015) document is available at the bottom of the VICE article [https://www.scribd.com/doc/259216899/Iraq-October-2002-NIE-on-WMDs-unedacted-version]:

declass2015leopold.png

Re the tweet above ...

The 'two key players' were arrested today at Dulles airport.  Subsequent to the arrests, the House committees-of-benghazi (Intelligence, Foreign Affairs and Oversight) issued a subpoena for documents, according to a report at The Hill.

Via the LA Times ...

The 'Deep State' DOJ under A-G Barr apparently thinks that Giuliani was working both sides of the street with his 'work' lobbying Ukrainian interests.  The charges against Fruman and Parnas detail alleged efforts to funnel foreign cash into a political campaign. Cue photos of the duo with the Trumps.

Of course, the impeachment hoopla machine takes the alleged interpenetration of Ukraine-Giuliani-Trumps to the next level:

Spoiler

memeorandum

 TOP ITEMS: 
i46.jpgshare.png Dow Jones Newswires:
Two Foreign-Born Men Who Helped Giuliani on Ukraine Arrested on Campaign-Finance Charges  —  Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman are expected to appear in federal court in Virginia later on Thursday  —  WASHINGTON—Two foreign-born donors to a pro- Trump fundraising committee who helped Rudy Giuliani's efforts …
Discussion:
RELATED:
i57.jpgshare.png Washington Post:
Two business associates of Trump's personal attorney Giuliani have been arrested on campaign finance charges  —  Two associates of President Trump's personal attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani have been arrested on charges that they schemed to funnel foreign money to U.S. politicians in a bid …
Discussion:
i69.jpgshare.png Abby Livingston / The Texas Tribune:
Pete Sessions is “Congressman 1” in indictment of Rudy Guliani associates, reports say  —  Multiple news outlets have reported that the former House chairman, now running for Congress in another district, was involved in the effort to oust the U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine.
i60.jpgshare.png Brad Reed / Raw Story:
Bill Barr has known about investigation into Rudy Giuliani's Ukraine henchmen for months: report  —  NBC's Pete Williams is reporting that Attorney General Bill Barr has been aware for months of an investigation into Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, the two foreign-born businessmen who served …
i74.jpgshare.png Richard L. Hasen / Slate:
The Arrest of Giuliani's Ukraine Associates Shows How Much Trump Has Already Corrupted Our Elections  —  The news of Thursday's indictments of two associates of Rudy Giuliani's, who according to their lawyer (and former Trump lawyer) John Dowd, assisted Giuliani “in connection with his representation …
i81.jpgshare.png Brad Reed / Raw Story:15 minutes ago
REVEALED: Rudy Giuliani's indicted Ukraine henchman gave thousands to Kevin McCarthy  —  Lev Parnas, the foreign-born businessman who was indicted this week on campaign-finance charges, donated thousands of dollars last year to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA).
i55.jpgshare.png Alexander Mallin / ABC News:
Two men with ties to Giuliani arrested on campaign finance charges  —  Two men who have reportedly assisted Rudy Giuliani in his efforts to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden's family have been arrested and are expected to face charges for allegedly violating campaign finance law …
i64.jpgshare.png NBC News:
Florida businessmen who helped Giuliani in Ukraine arrested on campaign finance charges
i18.jpgshare.png Josh Chafetz / New York Times:
The House Can Play Hardball, Too.  It Can Arrest Giuliani.  —  Two ways that Democrats in the House can match the White House's aggressive tactics.  —  Josh Chafetz is the author of “Congress's Constitution.”  —  In his letter to House leadership, the White House counsel, Pat Cipollone …

 

 

Edited by william.scherk
White space removed
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21 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

What you’re doing here is pure harassment.

Fuck off and go answer Jonathan at your climate doom hysteria blog.

Each post/comment has a "report post" link attached. One can click that link and file a complaint that the admin will deal with. 

In any case, posting information, links and tweets is what almost all of us active OLers does. The other thing to consider is that OL has a "silent" readership. 

Edited by william.scherk
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15 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Yes, prickly, prickly.

You asked what is new, yes, and that was 29% of that paragraph. Then follows another sentence I seem to have misinterpreted. Tell me how I should interpret it.

Jon,

The Tweet you posted, by Tiffany FitzHenry, says:

Quote

 BOMBSHELL: Newly Declassified CIA document used to justify the Iraq invasion drops today, reveals Bush administration did not have evidence of weapons of mass destruction but sold the Iraq was to America as if they did.

I'm not understanding why this news would be considered a "bombshell" or a revelation (the Tweet uses the word "reveals").

As I recall, the lack of evidence of WMDs was common talk before the Bush administration ended.  There was a lot of anger against Bush for tricking the US into a war on false grounds.

I hadn't and haven't followed the links.  From William's post, it looks like the document was declassified four years ago.

Ellen

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Look at the Drudge headlines.

Man, President Trump is cooked this time.

Looks like they finally got him.

image.png

 

Here are the people waiting for a President Trump rally today in Minneapolis, a Democratic stronghold:

You have to laugh...

:)

Michael

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3 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Jon,

The Tweet you posted, by Tiffany FitzHenry, says:

I'm not understanding why this news would be considered a "bombshell" or a revelation (the Tweet uses the word "reveals").

As I recall, the lack of evidence of WMDs was common talk before the Bush administration ended.  There was a lot of anger against Bush for tricking the US into a war on false grounds.

I hadn't and haven't followed the links.  From William's post, it looks like the document was declassified four years ago.

Ellen

Quote your sentence and tell me how to interpret it.

Then we can compare to how I interpreted it to see if I got it wrong like you said I did.

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13 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Look at the Drudge headlines.

Man, President Trump is cooked this time.

Looks like they finally got him.

image.png

 

Here are the people waiting for a President Trump rally today in Minneapolis, a Democratic stronghold:

You have to laugh...

:)

Michael

I think that Minneapolis manchild mayor Frey played a part in generating the large turnout. I hope that he and the rest of the left continue to not learn anything, and keep on trying the same stupid tactics.

J

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4 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Emphasis added ...

Wow...

They got Giuliani this time.

He's got got.

I mean got real good.

He's toast.

He's going down and he's going to take Trump with him.

This time they got them all, goddammit.

That's what you might believe if you read the press right now and believe all the yelling.

When the dust settles, all this will all boil down to...

Wait for it...

Are you ready?...

Marijuana farms.

:)

Seriously.

And some kind of Dinesh D'Souza-like railroading on campaign violations in the past. It's a Soros organization making all the stink.

None of this has anything to do with the Ukraine stuff the news reports are all yelling about. At issue is the fact that the two guys are connected in the Ukraine and introduced Rudy to some big shots over there to help in his investigations. Yawn...

It's not even worth debating this crap.

Michael

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19 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Wow...

They got Giuliani this time.

He's got got.

I mean got real good.

He's toast.

He's going down and he's going to take Trump with him.

This time they got them all, goddammit.

That's what you might believe if you read the press right now and believe all the yelling.

When the dust settles, all this will all boil down to...

Wait for it...

Are you ready?...

Marijuana farms.

:)

Seriously.

And some kind of Dinesh D'Souza-like railroading on campaign violations in the past. It's a Soros organization making all the stink.

None of this has anything to do with the Ukraine stuff the news reports are all yelling about. At issue is the fact that the two guys are connected in the Ukraine and introduced Rudy to some big shots over there to help in his investigations. Yawn...

It's not even worth debating this crap.

Michael

It is certainly not worth even debating.

(But there is great value in it being pooped all over your site everyday, right?) 😀

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4 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Each post/comment has a "report post" link attached. One can click that link and file a complaint that the admin will deal with. 

In any case, posting information, links and tweets is what almost all of us active OLers does. The other thing to consider is that OL has a "silent" readership. 

I reported this post but the system doesn’t allow me to report again, so I am quoting it here in order to complain about it again. I feel better now, don’t you?

What do you do when every position you have taken on OL for the last three years has turned out comically false and you are not intellectually honest or mature?

——> You bitch and complain and embarrass yourself further.

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1 hour ago, Jon Letendre said:

(But there is great value in it being pooped all over your site everyday, right?) 😀

Jon,

OL is not a church or a cult.

It's a discussion forum. If there are not at least two sides to an issue, there is no discussion. There is only indoctrination and jockeying for power. Maybe a little sharing but sharing threads tend to get little to no views.

Believe me, readers can think for themselves in conflicts. They don't need censors.

Back when you changed your own views, did you need a censor? Hell no. If OL had been strictly a pro-Trump or bash-Trump site (or ditto for Rand for that matter) and I had demanded conformity on pain of excommunication or banishment, you yourself would not have stuck around long enough to even think about the issues. 

Michael

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Right, a great value, like I said, in having lots of “crap not worth debating” pooped over every thread, every day. Good discussions follow, we see those occurring with Billy all the time, Jonathan can testify to the quality of the climate discussion he is having right now with Billy, for example.

I read your posts. You moved me to change the way I think. Not you plus another. You. It almost didn’t happen. His presence almost kept me away, almost preventing you from changing the way I think. This means he cannot have not kept more away who would also now think differently.

OL entertains with a smile daily crap not worth debating or else OL is a cult?

Really?

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