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It is intriguing.  I've been fairly obsessed for about a year with thinking about details.  I find microbiology fascinating. I wouldn't be wise, however, to talk about details.  The schemers are

That's what it says at the top of the page.  Your point?  It's not like this thread has devolved into a medley of cat videos.  Yet.  

The suicide note left by Fidel Castro’s eldest son has rocked the Cuban nation this week, with the most astonishing revelation being the claim that Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was his half-

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15 hours ago, moralist said:

It's the force that draws a person's moral character downward when they step off of a moral cliff by choosing to do evil.

Been all through this many times already, Bob, so why not just give it a freaking rest?

Greg

Force is defined (classically) as mass x acceleration.  What is the mass of a person's character?  What is the acceleration  (meters/second^2) and which cliff? 

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15 hours ago, moralist said:

It's the force that draws a person's moral character downward when they step off of a moral cliff by choosing to do evil.

Been all through this many times already, Bob, so why not just give it a freaking rest?

Greg

I will "give it a rest" when you start making coherent  logical sense. 

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14 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Space-time is a concept only--just like moral gravity--neither has corporeal existence.

--Brant

no actual physicalites

It also has objective measurable consequences.  For example the workings of your GPS  transponder.  Space-time is as real as rain.  You and I  are moving around in the space-time manifold in a  sustained entropy driven temporal; manner.  Now you know why physical  science succeeds and philosophy fails. 

Science works  and ethics/morality is muddled. Which is why we are having wars  where scientifically produced weapons are used. 

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Ba’al or his AI wrote: Science works and ethics/morality is muddled. Which is why we are having wars where scientifically produced weapons are used. end quote  

The Israeli Miss Universe contestant just said she only escaped molestation or rape at the hands of Donald Trump because she knew self defense. She was joking and telling the interviewer what they were panting to hear. But that kind of joke can be taken out of context and used as propaganda.

Have you ever seriously looked at Objectivist Ethics Bob? It is logical if not mathematical in its formulation.  

In her essay, "The Objectivist Ethics," Rand states: The Objectivist ethics holds man's life as the ~standard~ of value -- and ~his own life~ as the ethical ~purpose~ of every individual man . . .The difference between "standard" and "purpose" in this context is as follows:  a "standard" is an abstract principle that serves as a measurement or gauge to guide a man's choices in the achievement of a concrete, specific purpose.  'That which is required for the survival of man ~qua~ man' is an abstract principle that applies to every individual man.  The task of applying this principle to a concrete, specific purpose -- the purpose of living a life proper to a rational being -- belongs to every individual man and the life he has to live is his own. end quote.

Ayn Rand's characters Howard Roark and Francisco d'Anconia destroyed what they had created, without killing innocent people. The men abandoning trains, in “Atlas Shrugged” did not allow innocent people to die. Characters who had degenerated morally but did the right thing, would be described by Ayn as still having a "spark of decency."

I think that all of her protagonists were kind, never hurt anyone without gross justification, and that they even had good manners like most of the Jews I know! When a character told another that they were going to "soak" them in a business deal, it was understood that the characters knew the total context of the remark, as did the readers. How come there are so few Jewish auctioneers? That's odd.

Rational egoism and Objectivism do not lead to anarchy, hedonism, or "dog eat dog" survival-ism. An Objectivist would not harm another person unless it was in self-defense. The only extension of this, “Non-Initiation of Force Principle," that I can remember is when a gun or missile is pointed in your general direction and you have objective data that the pointer of the weapon has hostile intent towards you or an ally. Then you hunker down or you can morally shoot first. What does the Talmud or The Ten Commandments say about the gray areas of morality?  

Peter

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Slosh, slosh, slosh? I hope Wikileaks can come up with a bombshell.

How did the Electoral College go the last few elections?      2012 Romney / Ryan 206 vs. Obama 332.      2008 McCain / Palin 173 vs. Obama 365.

Trump is polling just fine with the popular vote, still 2 percent ahead, but he could lose the election. As of now, Octoberfest 22, 2016, with no tossups The Electoral College has Clinton / Kaine 333 vs. Trump / Pense 205 which is a close to the ending vote for Romney and much better than McCain did.  

Trump may have gotten the message too late. With 17 days to go, Trump must stop alienating groups of people when he criticizes one aspect of the election process. Good cases in point are alienating the Cuban vote in Florida and the Hispanic vote everywhere, or alienating the women vote everywhere. Now that he has put his own foot in his mouth he needs to talk about what the difficulties to reversing Roe v. Wade would be, without waffling about his wanting to end partial birth abortions, which are truly evil. If I can do it, Kelly Anne Conway can write it.

Stop alienating people who KNOW their own voting booths are not rigged. Yes you can criticize the press, pac money, The Electoral College System, The “Establishment,” etc., without lumping in the folks at the Fire Hall or local school who monitor the voting booths.

As an aside, I talked to someone who was a Hillary supporter but no longer will vote for her . . . but won’t vote for Trump either. I hope that is not the attitude in the Swing States. Without Florida, or North Carolina in the win column it may be over for Trump and the country by 10 pm on election night.

But if the popular vote and electoral vote keep trending up on Real Clear Politics then it may be more static and REAL by Thursday, October 27th which is 12 days before the election, or November 1st which is around one week before the election when the Propaganda Pollsters stop lying, to influence the vote. Perhaps the truth will then influence the vote. As Mark Twain wrote, “When in doubt, tell the truth.”

Peter

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32 minutes ago, Peter said:

Slosh, slosh, slosh? I hope Wikileaks can come up with a bombshell.

How did the Electoral College go the last few elections?      2012 Romney / Ryan 206 vs. Obama 332.      2008 McCain / Palin 173 vs. Obama 365.

Trump is polling just fine with the popular vote, still 2 percent ahead, but he could lose the election. As of now, Octoberfest 22, 2016, with no tossups The Electoral College has Clinton / Kaine 333 vs. Trump / Pense 205 which is a close to the ending vote for Romney and much better than McCain did.  

Trump may have gotten the message too late. With 17 days to go, Trump must stop alienating groups of people when he criticizes one aspect of the election process. Good cases in point are alienating the Cuban vote in Florida and the Hispanic vote everywhere, or alienating the women vote everywhere. Now that he has put his own foot in his mouth he needs to talk about what the difficulties to reversing Roe v. Wade would be, without waffling about his wanting to end partial birth abortions, which are truly evil. If I can do it, Kelly Anne Conway can write it.

Stop alienating people who KNOW their own voting booths are not rigged. Yes you can criticize the press, pac money, The Electoral College System, The “Establishment,” etc., without lumping in the folks at the Fire Hall or local school who monitor the voting booths.

As an aside, I talked to someone who was a Hillary supporter but no longer will vote for her . . . but won’t vote for Trump either. I hope that is not the attitude in the Swing States. Without Florida, or North Carolina in the win column it may be over for Trump and the country by 10 pm on election night.

But if the popular vote and electoral vote keep trending up on Real Clear Politics then it may be more static and REAL by Thursday, October 27th which is 12 days before the election, or November 1st which is around one week before the election when the Propaganda Pollsters stop lying, to influence the vote. Perhaps the truth will then influence the vote. As Mark Twain wrote, “When in doubt, tell the truth.”

Peter

too late for Trump.  In electoral votes he will go down hard.  In popular vote he may do better.   Electoral votes count.... The total popular vote is not decisive...

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4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

too late for Trump.  In electoral votes he will go down hard.  In popular vote he may do better.   Electoral votes count.... The total popular vote is not decisive...

You are restating a position you couldn't justify. You may be right . . .

--Brant

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7 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

It also has objective measurable consequences.  For example the workings of your GPS  transponder.  Space-time is as real as rain.  You and I  are moving around in the space-time manifold in a  sustained entropy driven temporal; manner.  Now you know why physical  science succeeds and philosophy fails. 

Science works  and ethics/morality is muddled. Which is why we are having wars  where scientifically produced weapons are used. 

There's nothing muddled about doing the right thing and not the wrong thing.

Time is a measurement of motion and space of distance. Measurements have no physical state or mass. Your "space-time" is an epistemological bridge between things. As an idea it works until replaced by an idea that works better--or something actually physical. I can say the same thing about a morality or a philosophy. It's simply easier to measure physical consequences. It that sense science is easier although ironically requiring more sheer brainpower.

--Brant

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Why aren’t there more conspiracy theories about Donald Trump? No secret societies doing his bidding. Well, Wikileaks is supposed to be trying to hurt Hillary. But no masonic or religious connections. No secret operatives doing his bidding, like we see killing people who ticked off the Clintons. No brown shirts like George Soro’s. If there were something out there spooky wouldn’t they be hinting at it or pointing fingers? No. Trump is a billionaire playboy in the mold of Hugh Hefner. That’s all they got. Trump is a ho-hum bad boy running for the Presidency. If he were a rerun he’d be more of an “Eddie Haskle” than a “Wally Cleaver.”

Peter    

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21 minutes ago, Peter said:

Why aren’t there more conspiracy theories about Donald Trump? No secret societies doing his bidding. Well, Wikileaks is supposed to be trying to hurt Hillary. But no masonic or religious connections. No secret operatives doing his bidding, like we see killing people who ticked off the Clintons. No brown shirts like George Soro’s. If there were something out there spooky wouldn’t they be hinting at it or pointing fingers? No. Trump is a billionaire playboy in the mold of Hugh Hefner. That’s all they got. Trump is a ho-hum bad boy running for the Presidency. If he were a rerun he’d be more of an “Eddie Haskle” than a “Wally Cleaver.”

Peter    

Totally agree, Peter. They are rock-solid lefties over at WikiLeaks. They want people to know truths about Hillary and the Democrat Party. They absolutely are not pro-Trump.

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1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

You are restating a position you couldn't justify. You may be right . . .

--Brant

It is only a guess.  What a few weeks and we shall see...

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Here is a report from Alex Jones with a ton of videos of people in their own words.

First he goes through a lot of old footage of Democrats (including Hillary) talking about voter fraud. After that he shows how voter fraud can be done. Then he shows how the Democrats are doing it right now. There's more, but that's the basic outline of this report.

Oddly enough, in discussing voting machines, Alex stated that the election was stolen from Al Gore. Alex Jones said that. Really. And he can't stand Al Gore.

The most interesting thing he highlighted was how Orwell's Newspeak was being used by Obama, Clinton, etc., regarding election fraud.

Alex defined Newspeak as holding two contradictory ideas in your head and believing them both. I've never heard it defined in those words, but that is what it is.

Then he showed President Obama saying he didn't know what voter fraud was. That it was impossible to rig the election. Yada yada yada. He showed other politicians with similar positions. Then he mentioned that they all--often in the same speeches--say there is danger the Russians will commit voter fraud.

Now President Obama wants the federal government to run the elections fearing the Russians. What could possibly go wrong there?

Either voter fraud is impossible or the Russians can commit voter fraud. You can't have both and be logical. Yet here are American politicians saying you can and actually believing it. I honestly think many of them believe their own bullshit.

Don't take my word for it, though. See for yourself.

Michael

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Summary of Trump's "Contract with the American Voter" unveiled in Gettysburg, PA, earlier today.

From Breitbart:

28 Things Donald Trump Promises to Do as President

Quote

Here is the list of the “Contract with the American Voter” policies detailed by Trump:

  1. Propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress
  2. Institute a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health)
  3. Require for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated.
  4. Institute a five year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service
  5. Create a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government.
  6. Institute a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
  7. Announce intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205.
  8. Announce withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
  9. Direct Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator.
  10. Direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately.
  11. Lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars’ worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.
  12. Lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward.
  13. Cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America’s water and environmental infrastructure.
  14. Cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama.
  15. Begin the process of selecting a replacement for Justice Scalia from one of the 20 judges on my list, who will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States.
  16. Cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities.
  17. Begin removing the more than 2 million criminal illegal immigrants from the country and cancel visas to foreign countries that won’t take them back.
  18. Suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered extreme vetting.
  19. Work with Congress on a Middle Class Tax Relief And Simplification Act.An economic plan designed to grow the economy 4% per year and create at least 25 million new jobs through massive tax reduction and simplification, in combination with trade reform, regulatory relief, and lifting the restrictions on American energy. The largest tax reductions are for the middle class. A middle-class family with 2 children will get a 35% tax cut. The current number of brackets will be reduced from 7 to 3, and tax forms will likewise be greatly simplified. The business rate will be lowered from 35 to 15 percent, and the trillions of dollars of American corporate money overseas can now be brought back at a 10 percent rate.
  20. Work with Congress on a End The Offshoring ActEstablishes tariffs to discourage companies from laying off their workers in order to relocate in other countries and ship their products back to the U.S. tax-free.
  21. Work with Congress on a American Energy & Infrastructure ActLeverages public-private partnerships, and private investments through tax incentives, to spur $1 trillion in infrastructure investment over 10 years. It is revenue neutral.
  22. Work with Congress on a School Choice And Education Opportunity ActRedirects education dollars to gives parents the right to send their kid to the public, private, charter, magnet, religious or home school of their choice. Ends common core, brings education supervision to local communities. It expands vocational and technical education, and make 2 and 4-year college more affordable.
  23. Work with Congress on a Repeal and Replace Obamacare ActFully repeals Obamacare and replaces it with Health Savings Accounts, the ability to purchase health insurance across state lines, and lets states manage Medicaid funds. Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.
  24. Work with Congress on a Affordable Childcare and Eldercare Act.Allows Americans to deduct childcare and elder care from their taxes, incentivizes employers to provide on-side childcare services, and creates tax-free Dependent Care Savings Accounts for both young and elderly dependents, with matching contributions for low-income families.
  25. Work with Congress on an End Illegal Immigration ActFully-funds the construction of a wall on our southern border with the full understanding that the country Mexico will be reimbursing the United States for the full cost of such wall; establishes a 2-year mandatory minimum federal prison sentence for illegally re-entering the U.S. after a previous deportation, and a 5-year mandatory minimum for illegally re-entering for those with felony convictions, multiple misdemeanor convictions or two or more prior deportations; also reforms visa rules to enhance penalties for overstaying and to ensure open jobs are offered to American workers first.
  26. Work with Congress on a Restoring Community Safety Act.Reduces surging crime, drugs and violence by creating a Task Force On Violent Crime and increasing funding for programs that train and assist local police; increases resources for federal law enforcement agencies and federal prosecutors to dismantle criminal gangs and put violent offenders behind bars.
  27. Work with Congress on a Restoring National Security Act.Rebuilds our military by eliminating the defense sequester and expanding military investment; provides Veterans with the ability to receive public VA treatment or attend the private doctor of their choice; protects our vital infrastructure from cyber-attack; establishes new screening procedures for immigration to ensure those who are admitted to our country support our people and our values
  28. Work with Congress on a Clean up Corruption in Washington Act.Enacts new ethics reforms to Drain the Swamp and reduce the corrupting influence of special interests on our politics.

That looks pretty darn good to me.

:)

Michael

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2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Alex Jones addresses liberals.

For once, I think his persuasion is off, really off.

MSK,

The term persuasion is kinda broad, is all persuasion qua persuasion good?

I've known some pretty bad dudes that might be called good persuaders.

Alex seems like a bad dude.
 

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51 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said:

Alex seems like a bad dude.

Korben,

Alex isn't a bad dude. He's a good dude.

He's just uncouth and stubborn and the elites don't like people who talk like he does.

Think of him like a pioneer. What kind of person did it take in centuries past to leave the comfort of their home and go off by themselves into the wilderness to face the bugs, animals, snakes, poison plants, hostile Indians, other hostile people, foul weather, etc.? 

So imagine if your wilderness is the underbelly of the elites. That's a more dangerous place to be than the actual wilderness of yesteryear and you have to be a mad to undertake it.

I remember a book I read a long time ago that explained something about the elites that made a lot of sense to me: The Proud Tower by Barbara Tuchman. It's about the world prior to World War I. She said (my paraphrase from a twisted memory :) ) the elites in Europe were infested with scandals, love affairs, embezzlements, murders, and all kinds of dirty rotten scoundrel activities. All the elites covered for each other. All was preforgiven and they all put on a show of propriety for the rest of the world. The only unforgivable sin was getting caught and exposed to the commoners. If that happened to you, then you were ostracized from polite society for life. You became a leper.

(Think of a modern-day Anthony Weiner. He got a pass a couple of times because psychology explains it to the commoners. But he went full-on shameless and got caught again. Now he's ostracized and I don't think he's going to be let back in.)

Anyway, Alex Jones is the guy who exposes the sins of the elite. His first big claim to fame was filming Bohemian Grove with Jon Ronson who wrote about it in a book called Them: Adventures with Extremists.

(They later fell out because Alex claimed the Bushes and other elites were doing actual human sacrifices to Moloch and Ronson claimed the Bushes were only doing mock human sacrifices to Moloch. But everybody seemed to find it normal that the Bushes and others were sacrificing in some manner kids to a gigantic stone owl from an ancient Canaanite religion in the moonlight. :) Alex made a documentary about it, too. Now they are friendly again.) 

The elites can't stand him.

I once heard him say (in these kinds of words) that the only reason he's still alive is that people think he's crazy and he talks goofy. :) 

Well, nobody's laughing anymore...

Matt Drudge calls him an American original, meaning a small guy who can make it big on his own without the elites (just like Drudge did). That doesn't mean Drudge agrees with everything Alex does or says, but that he admires Alex for following his passion and living true to his dream and values.

Alex is not dishonest. He's worse. He's half-crazy and half-genius, all packaged as a corageous uncouth shit-kicker. So when he goes off on things, he actually believes all of it at the time. The good part of Alex is that he's correctable. 

Michael

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56 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said:

The term persuasion is kinda broad, is all persuasion qua persuasion good?

Korben,

Persuasion is morally neutral like nuclear energy. You can use it to light up a city or blow it up.

Morality (good and evil) is not in the techniques, but instead in those who use the techniques.

I guess with some people it can be like finding out what's in Pandora's box or taking a bite of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, meaning that evil is set loose with the revelation of hidden secrets and knowledge. But that's not everybody.

I consider the choice to use persuasion for good or evil an individual choice. It's a matter of character.

Michael

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12 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

It is only a guess.  What a few weeks and we shall see...

He could lose on Roe v Wade. R v W is a woman has a right to an abortion. Repealing it denies that right. Rights are Federal. A woman has a right to an abortion at least to the quickening. Then comes a gray area that continues to darken until birth. R . W. should be for early pregnancy--at least--and then, maybe, it's for the states.

--Brant

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11 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

He could lose on Roe v Wade. R v W is a woman has a right to an abortion. Repealing it denies that right. Rights are Federal. A woman has a right to an abortion at least to the quickening. Then comes a gray area that continues to darken until birth. R . W. should be for early pregnancy--at least--and then, maybe, it's for the states.

--Brant

Keep on whistling as you walk past Trump's graveyard.

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11 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Keep on whistling as you walk past Trump's graveyard.

Very funny.

You want Trump to lose, but don't have the guts to flat out say so. Once he loses you'll get to dance (on his grave), but you just can't wait.

--Brant

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