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This is going to take some serious gas out of the racism charge.

 

 

Trump landed O'Reilly's talking points memo. Over eight minutes, too, instead of the habitual four to five. This is a big deal because O'Reilly has a big fat honking inhouse problem. Trump dismisses O'Reilly's buddy Charles Krauthammer as an "overrated pundit," "jerk" and "loser" and Krauthammer bashes Trump every chance he can get.

 

Frankly, this is more media attention than even I expected and it is one hell of an implied endorsement so soon after the fact. With O'Reilly leading the conservative media charge saying Trump is right about Mexico (with a small inessential caveat or two), the attempt to brand Trump as racist in the mainstream press will probably start losing steam fast.

 

Michael

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Pretty good stuff by O'Reilly but I am not going to agree with everything he says just because he says things that others are afraid to say. Nor do I think he'll convince anybody on the left because they don't watch Fox News.

I suppose he did a good job in staying rational and not making an egregious statements that could be taken out of context by somebody like Jon Stewart (except maybe his idea to name his laws after a young white woman... why is naming laws after young attractive white women so popular?).

I still disagree with him at a fundamental level, I am pro-immigration and a few criminals getting in isn't enough to change my mind. Let's keep in mind that Ayn Rand was part of a group of people that brought communism into this country (and in some cases provided sensitive information to the USSR like the rosenbergs). It's not about focusing on the worst in the immigrants and trying to bully their host countries into changing their behavior. It's about finding the good things in the immigrants and modifying the country to adapt to them without hurting its non-immigrant population.

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Here's an open question for this thread.

What's the quota on the number of Mexicans who can become citizens every year?

Is the path to citizenship for immigrants from Mexico and other countries to the south of Mexico based on rational arguments on outdated racism?

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Trump has released a statement on Mexico and Mexicans. This transcript is from the CBC. I have included all but the last paragraph.

Full statement from Donald J. Trump:

I don't see how there is any room for misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the statement I made on June 16th during my Presidential announcement speech. Here is what I said, and yet this statement is deliberately distorted by the media:

"When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you (pointing to the audience). They're not sending you (pointing again). They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems to us. They're bringing drugs.They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people! But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we're getting. And it only makes common sense. They're sending us not the right people. It's coming from more than Mexico. It's coming from all over South and Latin America, and it's coming probably from the Middle East. But we don't know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don't know what's happening. And it's got to stop and it's got to stop fast."

What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc. This was evident just this week when, as an example, a young woman in San Francisco was viciously killed by a 5 time deported Mexican with a long criminal record, who was forced back into the United States because they didn't want him in Mexico. This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States. In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican government. The largest suppliers of heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs are Mexican cartels that arrange to have Mexican immigrants trying to cross the borders and smuggle in the drugs. The Border Patrol knows this. Likewise, tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border. The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico and, in fact, for many other parts of the world. On the other hand, many fabulous people come in from Mexico and our country is better for it. But these people are here legally, and are severely hurt by those coming in illegally. I am proud to say that I know many hard working Mexicans — many of them are working for and with me … and, just like our country, my organization is better for it.

The Mexican Government wants an open border as long as it's a ONE WAY open border into the United States. Not only are they killing us at the border, but they are killing us on trade … and the country of Mexico is making billions of dollars in doing so.

I have great respect for Mexico and love their people and their peoples' great spirit. The problem is, however, that their leaders are far smarter, more cunning, and better negotiators than ours. To the citizens of the United States, who I will represent far better than anyone else as President, the Mexican government is not our friend … and why should they be when the relationship is totally one sided in their favor on both illegal immigration and trade. I have pointed this out during my speeches and it is something Mexico doesn't want me to say. In actuality, it was only after my significant rise in the polls that Univision, previously my friend, went ballistic. I believe that my examples of bad trade deals for the United States was of even more concern to the Mexican government than my talk of border security.

I have lost a lot during this Presidential run defending the people of the United States. I have always heard that it is very hard for a successful person to run for President. Macy's, NBC, Serta and NASCAR have all taken the weak and very sad position of being politically correct even though they are wrong in terms of what is good for our country. Univision, because 70% of their business comes from Mexico, in my opinion, is being dictated to by the Mexican Government. The last thing Mexico wants is Donald Trump as President in that I will make great trade deals for the United States and will have an impenetrable border–only legally approved people will come through easily.

There is also a transcript of Trump's announcement speech in New York three weeks ago, at the Wall Street Journal's Washington Wire blog. Here are the paragraphs I thought touched on immigration largely, if not only Mexico and Mexican legal/illegal immigration.

When do we beat Mexico at the border? They’re laughing at us, at our stupidity. And now they are beating us economically. They are not our friend, believe me. But they’re killing us economically.

The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems.

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people.

It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably — probably — from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.

Islamic terrorism is eating up large portions of the Middle East. They’ve become rich. I’m in competition with them.

They just built a hotel in Syria. Can you believe this? They built a hotel. When I have to build a hotel, I pay interest. They don’t have to pay interest, because they took the oil that, when we left Iraq, I said we should’ve taken.

I’ll bring back our jobs from China, from Mexico, from Japan, from so many places. I’ll bring back our jobs, and I’ll bring back our money.

Right now, think of this: We owe China $1.3 trillion. We owe Japan more than that. So they come in, they take our jobs, they take our money, and then they loan us back the money, and we pay them in interest, and then the dollar goes up so their deal’s even better.

And, in my opinion, the new China, believe it or not, in terms of trade, is Mexico.

So Mexico takes a company, a car company that was going to build in Tennessee, rips it out. Everybody thought the deal was dead. Reported it in the Wall Street Journal recently. Everybody thought it was a done deal. It’s going in and that’s going to be it, going into Tennessee. Great state, great people.TRUMP: All of a sudden, at the last moment, this big car manufacturer, foreign, announces they’re not going to Tennessee. They’re gonna spend their $1 billion in Mexico instead. Not good.

I would call up the head of Ford, who I know. If I was president, I’d say, “Congratulations. I understand that you’re building a nice $2.5 billion car factory in Mexico and that you’re going to take your cars and sell them to the United States zero tax, just flow them across the border.”

And you say to yourself, “How does that help us,” right? “How does that help us? Where is that good”? It’s not.

So I would say, “Congratulations. That’s the good news. Let me give you the bad news. Every car and every truck and every part manufactured in this plant that comes across the border, we’re going to charge you a 35-percent tax, and that tax is going to be paid simultaneously with the transaction, and that’s it.

The head of Ford will call me back, I would say within an hour after I told them the bad news. But it could be he’d want to be cool, and he’ll wait until the next day. You know, they want to be a little cool.

And he’ll say, “Please, please, please.” He’ll beg for a little while, and I’ll say, “No interest.” Then he’ll call all sorts of political people, and I’ll say, “Sorry, fellas. No interest,” because I don’t need anybody’s money. It’s nice. I don’t need anybody’s money.

After I’m called by 30 friends of mine who contributed to different campaigns, after I’m called by all of the special interests and by the — the donors and by the lobbyists — and they have zero chance at convincing me, zero — I’ll get a call the next day from the head of Ford. He’ll say. “Please reconsider,” I’ll say no.

He’ll say, “Mr. President, we’ve decided to move the plant back to the United States, and we’re not going to build it in Mexico.” That’s it. They have no choice. They have no choice.

I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively, I will build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall.

I will immediately terminate President Obama’s illegal executive order on immigration, immediately.

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William,

That's cool. Thanks for posting Trump's own words in context.

People can read for themselves and decide if that sounds racist or anti-immigration.

Especially phrases that the press never puts in headlines like this: "... the United States and will have an impenetrable border–only legally approved people will come through easily."

Or this: "On the other hand, many fabulous people come in from Mexico and our country is better for it. But these people are here legally, and are severely hurt by those coming in illegally. I am proud to say that I know many hard working Mexicans — many of them are working for and with me … and, just like our country, my organization is better for it."

Michael

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Impressive comeback. He's got the money to put this kind of thing to the public over the mainstream media. He's soon going to push most of the other Republican candidates off the table.

--Brant

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Here is Alex Jones agreeing with 95% of what Trump now says. Qualified but endorsed.

 

Jones has a history of being about as nasty to Trump as anyone.

 

 

Alex Jones is laughed at by elites, and, hell, I myself think he stomps on the paranoia muscle way too often, but he has an enormous audience. An audience of voters if they get motivated...

 

I'm waiting for some similar semi-endorsements to come from the left. I am sure they will come.

 

Drip... drip... drip...

 

Meanwhile loads of pundits and political insiders are beginning to sound like Baghdad Bob to me when they talk about Trump.

 

:smile:

 

Michael

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Redux.

Is Trump correct about the Southern border? Yes ____ No ____.


It depends. The claims he made about the border were several. See the transcripts one page back.

What leapt out at me were two claims, that "the Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States" and that "tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border." I don't know if he means that there is an actual government program that rounds up 'unwanted' Mexicans and dumps them at the border and then forces them across. I hope he doesn't mean that.

As for the diseases pouring across the southern border, I don't think so.

As you suggest, Adam, it might be time for you to chase his "facts."

Here's an open question for this thread.

What's the quota on the number of Mexicans who can become citizens every year?

Is the path to citizenship for immigrants from Mexico and other countries to the south of Mexico based on rational arguments on outdated racism?


Unless you can't do your own research because of some impediment, I'd agree with Adam that you chase down some facts on your own. In a nutshell, there is no Mexican quota to 'become citizens' of the USA. This is naturalization, and as far as I know, if you meet the criteria, pass your exam, you get to put your hand the on the Bible and proclaim that you will defend the Republic and bif bam boom, you are an American.

As for the history of Mexican emigration to the USA and the policies that expande, squeezed, inflated, curbed, tweaked, amnestied, ramped up deportation, and so on -- you might start with a Wikipedia article on Mexican emigration. It is a freaking complicated history. The largest Mexican immigrant amnesty programme happened under Ronald Reagan in 1986, it seems, according the Wiki section on the history of the last few decades..

An odd little excerpt from the history, based apparently on some Pew research as of 2012:

Still today, Mexico is the country with the most emigrants in the world, but during the last few years, migratory patterns from Mexico to the United States have changed. A report by the Pew Research Center (February 2012) has shown that for the first time in 60 years, migration trends have reversed, as more Mexicans leave the U.S. than enter it.

Edited by william.scherk

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Good information.

However, it completely misses the factual mark.

I know this personally from knowing people from Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Haiti, Dominca, Cuba, Trinidad, St. Kit, San Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Columbia, Uruguay, Bolivia, the Guianas, Chile, Argentina, Brazil just to name a few.

So it is not "Mexican" as it was. Now the funnel of Central American folks is using Mexico as an overground railroad.

A...

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From the Daily Mail today: EXCLUSIVE: 'My son was murdered by a Mexican illegal immigrant, just like Kathryn Steinle - it's time people listened to Trump,' says mother of gunned-down teenage football star

I expect to see a whole lot of this coming down the pike.

Public-relations-wise, it works, too.

Drip... drip... drip...

:)

Michael

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Good information.

However, it completely misses the factual mark.

I bet no one has any idea what you are referring to. What factual mark? About what information? I mentioned a couple of 'oh really's: "the Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States" and that "tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border."

Does your 'Good Information' refer to the tremendous diseases or the force used by the Mexican government? Yes ___________. No ____________. Gaud Noes _________.

I know this personally from knowing people from Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Haiti, Dominca, Cuba, Trinidad, St. Kit, San Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Columbia, Uruguay, Bolivia, the Guianas, Chile, Argentina, Brazil just to name a few.[

What is is that you know personally? That Nigeria forces its people across the southern border? That the Guianas, the Kities, whovever they are, are swamping your neighbourhood? That the funnel of Mexico is full of Dream Whip or doughnut batter?

I think it might be time for you to run a rhetoric class on yourself.

So it is not "Mexican" as it was.

What isn't Mexican? The Mexican government forcing diseased Argentinians across its northern border?

Now the funnel of Central American folks is using Mexico as an overground railroad.

Here, I think I understand what you are saying: Trump is full of shit on the forcing and the diseased issue. The number of unaccompanied minors crossing illegally is composed of Central American kids (from Honduras especially, along with El Salvador and Guatemala, and even other high-murder-rate countries like Colombia and Venezuela). If you are saying that, I tend to agree, but would need to consult some figures and findings.

My heart is touched by the stories of unaccompanied minors fleeing violence in their home countries. I kind of understand why there is such a conflicted response to them (they bring Kookamunga Disease! They die to get here! We can offer these children a sanctuary! We must send them all back to the killing fields!)

But who gives a shit. This is about Trump and the ferocious war of media titans to force him over the wall into the land of the losers.

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There is some interesting data that has been extrapolated from this site.

I ran one quick search and got:

http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/quick-facts/Quick_Facts_Illegal_Reentry.pdf

_______________________________________________________________

http://isb.ussc.gov/Login

^^^^this is the site

_______________________________________________________________

not sure what to make of this one...

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/news/upload/Immigration%2C%2001-30-15%2C%20Breakdown%20of%20Subsequent%20Crimes%20List.pdf

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Michael, if you're anti-illegal immigration then you're against the founding fathers. They never got visas, greencards or any sort of approval from the indigenous people. They got approval from a corrupt government they'd later declare independence from. They were the descendants of people who forced their way into this country and decimated its original inhabitants (using gun powder powered weapons and diseases which evolved due to their poor hygiene and closeness to animals).

The unfortunate truth about America is that it was built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people.

Can somebody besides me do some research on legal pathways for citizens of Mexico to become US citizens? I believe these laws are among the most ridiculous laws we have on record. Completely anti-individualist and racist. They're rooted in the paranoid and irrational notion that if we make it easy for Mexicans to be citizens, Mexico will take over the US.

Ever wonder why Canada is so much better off than Mexico? It's because the US initiated war against Mexico for irrational reasons, rather than forming trade relations with Mexico. Probably had something to do with both North and South wanting a distraction from the Slavery debate, those poor and confused stupid bastards were too cowardly to resolve slavery back then and too stupid to learn Spanish. This country has been suffering ever since from the horribly bad decision of going to war with Mexico.

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Native Americans were constantly at war with each other. Many tribes. Whites were just another tribe pushing their way in and around with the most success. Native Americans, of course, are still being oppressed to this day. Blacks too. Now whites are oppressing themselves.

We're all in this blender together.

--Brant

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Michael, if you're anti-illegal immigration then you're against the founding fathers. They never got visas, greencards or any sort of approval from the indigenous people. They got approval from a corrupt government they'd later declare independence from.

The unfortunate truth about America is that it was built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people.

So now it's all right to kill Germans and Japs again?

You apparently do not see the lack of a warrant in your argument about the founders of this nation.

A...

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Michael, if you're anti-illegal immigration then you're against the founding fathers.

RR,

Sure.

You're right.

The Founding Fathers should have left the United States of America as a perfect government before they came along and screwed it all up.

:smile:

btw - The Mexican racism card is dead and dying. Except for me, maybe. It's obvious I'm a racist. I can't stand Latin Americans. That's why I spent 32 years of my life in Brazil and have two sons with a Brazilian woman.

If you wonder why I am against illegal immigration, check a premise or two instead of preaching MSNBC talking points and making silly rhetoric.

You might find there are actual ideas to discuss...

Michael

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The unfortunate truth about America is that it was built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people.

RR,

I have a question.

Given you think this country sucks, why are you so concerned with getting illegal people here? Why don't you prefer for some of them to stay, for example, in Mexico, which obviously was not "built on breaking rules and irrational justifications of violence against innocent people"?

Don't you want the illegals to have a better life?

Do you really want them to come here for good and learn how to be bad guys?

:smile:

Ever wonder why Canada is so much better off than Mexico?

No.

:smile:

Michael

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If anybody has any doubt...

 

 

Quote from the interview (around 3:12), the topic was a Wapo article on the Mexican immigrants working for a Trump construction project (the article insinuated some of the immigrants were illegal, but it didn't explicitly said that and apparently it would have been in error had it done so):

 

Greta: Is there any?... are you considering at all?... since you're getting heat from every single direction... is there any chance you'll get out of the race with this?

 

Donald: No! I love it!

 

 

:smile:

 

Michael

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If one goes down that road, there's a lot of re-jigging of history we could indulge in. "Should" (hundreds of years ago) the advanced and reasonably civilized nations have declared and agreed on a quarantine on the less civilized regions and abjured Empire-building - until the primitive peoples too had independently achieved their own 'progress' (in all the ways it can be described)? By that token, those Romans should have stayed at home and left savage Britons alone. (Etc.) Men abhor a vacuum, like nature does. Where there's effectively un-owned territory - space - localized resources, adventure, exploration and the possibility of trade/profit, men move in. As important, add in the persecution of minority religious groups back at home, and that explains movements of people looking to new frontiers for their self-determination and freedom.

Such people brought their values with them, and always they were much greater values than they found in the new frontiers. How much they willingly included native peoples in those values, was immensely variable - to a limited degree, or often as a large and unjust exclusion of them. That's another story: but white man's colonist guilt is being done to death lately.

For a long while, the landed people would welcome fresh "immigrants" to their young nation. Not primarily for reasons of fellow-feeling or charity, but from rational values. Implicitly, everyone arriving would share something of the vision of those before them - or they'd not be coming - which reduced down is the freedom to determine one's own life and prosper.

At a nation's height of civilisation I think this would be an individual's attitude to fresh arrivals: You're pursuing the same values as me, without help and hand-outs, fellows. Good luck to you, and all the best.

But if the inherent freedom of a country becomes at all compromised, at some tipping-point there will probably come a shift. Though some will still be looking for relatively more freedom and earned prosperity than they can find at home - for many, any loss of individual liberties and increasing Statism would be precisely what potential immigrants would see to their advantage and be coming for. So the calibre of newcomer would decline as their numbers would increase.

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The following is about black and white racism, but the cartoon captures perfectly the way I believe the racism card is being played in today's culture, and that includes charges of racism against Latinos.

It's spot on in the way many in the press have tried to characterize Trump as a racist.

07.08.2015-11.12.png

:smile:

Michael

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