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Are businesspeople (not retired, but active) too evil to become president?

That's a serious question.

Malcolm Gladwell, who is part black, once took an online test by Harvard University (see here) to see if he was implicitly prejudiced against blacks. He couldn't be, he thought. Not with his genes. To his astonishment, he found out he was.

This led him to conclude that his subconscious mind had absorbed a gazillion cues from the information environment, advertisements, portrayal in fiction, the entire way blacks were framed, and so on. At the time he took the test, it was uncommon to see blacks as industry leaders, scientists, and so on. We saw blacks more in sports and entertainment and ghetto settings, and some exceptions like a few family shows on TV, buddy cop movies with one white one black, etc.

Here in O-Land, a common complaint is that businesspeople are constantly portrayed in the media as villains, greedy, unscrupulous, out to make a buck for any reason. Whenever something bad happens, it's a ruthless dog-eat-dog capitalist trying to crush innocent people.

I wonder if this has seeped into the unconscious of everybody. Look at the vehement statements of fact, one after another, that Trump will never get the nomination. That he will not be president. It's a preface. Before any analysis can be presented, the persone needs to say Trump will not make it, almost like a fundamentalist Christian feels compelled to say grace before eating. The comments against Trump are far more passionately dogmatic than for any other candidate.

Many ortho-Objectivists are exceptionally vicious in their comments about him--more than they are against Hillary. I read them everyday. And I keep thinking, why the excessive nastiness?

In a super-ironic twist, I believe many Objectivists and libertarians hate--really hate, not just dislike--the prospect of a Trump presidency because, underneath, they don't believe a businessman is morally qualified to be president. And the richer he or she is, the more morally compromised.

Here's a test to see if you have this bias.

What modern businessperson would you find acceptable? Carly Fiorina, I suppose, but she's been retired for years and has paid some political dues starting with helping run John McCain's bid and doing a lot of political fundraising. She's no longer a businessperson and has morphed into a political animal.

But think about it. When Bill Gates was still active, or Steve Jobs, would they have been good presidential candidates in your mind? I mean serious candidates. How about today? Warren Buffet? Charles Koch? Mark Zuckerberg? Sheldon Adelson?

Think about any of them running against Jeb Bush or Rand Paul or Ted Cruz or any of the top Republicans. Then think about the election and one of them running against Hillary Clinton.

How does a Charles Koch versus Hillary Clinton election strike you?

Do you feel a sudden confusion or "ick" or "not a chance in hell" or "don't be stupid" in your gut?

Of course, we tell ourselves that the problem is not businesspeople, but that particular one. It's that individual who is unfit. But if that were the case, what successful businessperson would be suitable to you to run for president?

Maybe, if someday someone made a test about businesspeople being inherently morally corrupt that we could take online, not just you, but I too, might get a horrible surprise like Malcolm Gladwell did.

I know I felt real uneasy when I first started supporting Trump and I could not put my finger on the source. My mind said one thing and my gut was, at times, saying something else.

I think I just did put my finger on it.

And, as our conscious mind can override and replace many subconscious programmings, I have managed to overcome that bias. But I still get a twinge of it at times. Not against Trump's bombast or positions, but a faint emotional something that makes me want to ignore his achievements and pigeonhole him as all bluster and morally unfit. When I introspect deeply, echos of that feeling extend to any successful businessperson.

Ayn Rand helped me with this one. Businesspeople are not evil (unless they are James Taggart-like crony capitalists). They are producers.

Michael

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What will happen is that Trump will continue to offend one group of Americans after another until his disapproval rates are around 70 percent (hate) and 10 percent (like) and 20 percent (think he is a joke.)

Peter,

Do you mean the numbers will go back to where they were?

:)

So you believe Trump's aggressive shortcomings, which reversed those numbers in a short time with the trend still going up, will suddenly be the reason for going back to the beginning? The argument that persuaded one way will be the same that persuades the other for the same people?

:)

Michael

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William,

Thank you for the link to the article by Ryan Lizza.

Here are a few nice quotes I gleaned from the article:

... McCain worried that Trump might have more staying power than many political analysts assume.

. . .

“We’ll see how this plays out, but there is some anger in my state,” McCain said.

. . .

McCain is an ardent backer of his good friend Senator Lindsey Graham, who is languishing in the G.O.P. Presidential primary polls.

. . .

McCain, who is eighteen years older than Graham, sounded like a proud father. “Lindsey said this is a moral test for our party. He put on a very strong performance,” McCain said.

I'll let the reader decide what to make of that.

:smile:

Michael

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OK, so this McCain comment has made me like Trump a lot more.

I think McCain was a horrible unprincipled compromiser, he played the war hero thing to death. The fact is he crashed a plane (and two others crashed while he was in or around them), and then he was shot down and captured. It's not clear to me why people are given second chances if they crash million dollar planes, it might have something to do with McCain's father and grandfather being Navy Admirals and nepotism in the Navy. Not only is he not a war hero, but I'm sure his judgement was negatively affected by his treatment while he was in Vietnamese custody. Lastly, 'war heroes' who advocate more wars and are too lazy to try to negotiate don't sit well with me.

In any case, it's nice that he speaks his mind and defends himself. I'm sure I'll disagree with something else he says but it's useful to have somebody who isn't so afraid of how people will react to what he says. I don't dislike Obama as much as many of the other people here do, but he's a politician that follows the polls and tries to conform his actions to what the people want. Trump is trying to conform the people to what he believes...

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Look at the vehement statements of fact, one after another, that Trump will never get the nomination. That he will not be president. It's a preface. Before any analysis can be presented, the persone needs to say Trump will not make it, almost like a fundamentalist Christian feels compelled to say grace before eating. The comments against Trump are far more passionately dogmatic than for any other candidate.

It is not always easy to get at the plain facts underneath the media stir-fry and associated vehemence. What happens when you look at available metrics, Michael? I mean -- separate all the yowling and slurring and general whoopee -- and examine the underlying sets of data, and what do you get? I mean the opinion sampling that tests the limits of Trump's appeal, both in the present GOP race, and in more general terms.

I wonder what you make of the data you examine, all encrustations of opinion removed.

I am one of those who has no horse in the race (I abhor the dynastic weight of a Bush/Clinton inevitability). I am also one of those who surmises that Trump will not win the GOP nomination -- for reasons already given. I don't think that makes me a passionately dogmatic entity. Does it seem that way to you?

Many ortho-Objectivists are exceptionally vicious in their comments about him--more than they are against Hillary. I read them everyday. And I keep thinking, why the excessive nastiness?

That might make a good, entertaining and instructive sub-thread of examples. What are the worst and most dogmatic things you have come across? What are the OrthoDobjectivish rants of note?

Think about any of them running against Jeb Bush or Rand Paul or Ted Cruz or any of the top Republicans. Then think about the election and one of them running against Hillary Clinton.

How does a Charles Koch versus Hillary Clinton election strike you?

Do you feel a sudden confusion or "ick" or "not a chance in hell" or "don't be stupid" in your gut?

I actually feel the most 'ick' at the prospect of a Bush-Clinton matchup. And yet, this is the matchup that seems to offer the best chance of a Republican victory next year.

Edited by william.scherk

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More thoughtful stuff coming, but for now, I just thought y'all might want to know:

Trump basks in McCain takedown, says rivals envious of rise

By Julie Pace

July 19, 2015

Washington Post

After Sheryl Attkisson's takedown of WaPo (referenced earlier in this thread), it's good to see WaPo trying to be fair and balanced.

(Hmmmm... where have I heard "fair and balanced" before...)

:)

And, of course, the headline this time accurately reflects reality.

Michael

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RR:

. I don't dislike Obama as much as many of the other people here do, but he's a politician that follows the polls and tries to conform his actions to what the people want. Trump is trying to conform the people to what he believes...

O'bama is not a politician, he is a marxist. They rarely make good politicians.

The Chicago team that built him had a skilled weapon that they sold in one of the top 5 or 6 best Presidential campaigns in my lifetime.

The fact that, as he clearly stated in a little heard interview, he was a "blank screen" for people to "see" what they wanted to see.

It is well established by his own party that he believes he is above politics. That makes him a dangerous narcissist, with an agenda to keep and many more miseries to mete.*

Additionally, O'bama was, superficially, black enough to sell to the Democratic leftist primary voter base which includes:

African Americans;

Guilty White folks, particularly Catholic women in key states like Pennsylvania and Ohio;

Union foot soldiers;

Teacher/Professor Unions;

Jewish Organizations;

Newly graduated college folks and folks under 30;

Generational public dole recipients; and

Michael Marotta.

Finally, he is an superior orator.

A...

* to give out by measure : dole —usually used with out <mete out punishment>

With apologies to Robert Frost

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OK, so this McCain comment has made me like Trump a lot more.

I think McCain was a horrible unprincipled compromiser, he played the war hero thing to death. The fact is he crashed a plane (and two others crashed while he was in or around them), and then he was shot down and captured. It's not clear to me why people are given second chances if they crash million dollar planes, it might have something to do with McCain's father and grandfather being Navy Admirals and nepotism in the Navy. Not only is he not a war hero, but I'm sure his judgement was negatively affected by his treatment while he was in Vietnamese custody. Lastly, 'war heroes' who advocate more wars and are too lazy to try to negotiate don't sit well with me.

In any case, it's nice that he speaks his mind and defends himself. I'm sure I'll disagree with something else he says but it's useful to have somebody who isn't so afraid of how people will react to what he says. I don't dislike Obama as much as many of the other people here do, but he's a politician that follows the polls and tries to conform his actions to what the people want. Trump is trying to conform the people to what he believes...

He's officially a war hero and decorated as such. Silver Star for conduct as a POW plus Legion of Merit. Distinguished Flying Cross, likely for the mission he was shot down on. Three Bronze Stars, Navy Commendation Medal, the Purple Heart. Also a Bronze Star for before he was shot down and the Navy Commendation Medal.

Since you don't think he's a war hero then war heroes "who advocate more wars . . . "--but now you are talking about, whom? Yeah, McCain is a war-monger. And I don't like him much, but you need to get a better grip on your facts before you adduce them.

--Brant

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Here is The Donald taking an extremely hostile interviewer (Martha Raddatz) who tries to barbecue him over his comment about McCain. 
 
(NOTE: There used to be an embedded video from ABC here, but it caused a glitch in the forum software. This caused the thread to be split while customer service corrected the problem. That is what is referred to later, but now the threads are rejoined. Here is a YouTube version:) 
 
 
 
Hes stands up to her and, frankly, makes his supporters cheer. Take look at the comments on the ABC site page where this video came from:
 
Donald Trump Says He Does Not Owe John McCain an Apology
 
The top comment as of my present post is from one Adam West:
 

Martha
 
First, you are wrong when you falsely claimed returning Vietnam Vets were treated as war heros. Fact is, returning Nam vets were spit on & labeled 'baby killers'.
 
Second, John McCain did NOT vote for the 2008 Post-9/11 (New) GI Bill that was pushed by Paul Rieckhoff of Iraq-Afghanistan Vets of America.
 
Third, you, Martha, owe you viewers an apology for your incorrect and misleading reporting.

 
There is also some vitriol against Trump in the comments.
 
Trump blasted the hell out of McCain's lack of achievements on behalf of USA veterans. He called Martha to task by highlighting that she constantly reports on what lousy medical service they get. he said he would build hospitals for them and take care of them.

 

He ended with the following. Granted, Martha was probably out of time, but it sounded like he shut her up since she signed off with an overly enthusiastic "thank you" to "Mr. Trump" for joining her. The sudden change in her speaking tone from hostile to star-struck groupie was kinda funny.
 

I built, with a small group, the Vietnam Memorial in downtown Manhattan. I know what it is to help people and I know what it is to help veterans.

 
Michael

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How on earth does she think it's even mediocre reporting to claim he said McCain isn't a war hero not ten seconds after reading a *direct* quote from him saying the exact opposite?

That's insane.

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"People are constantly attacking me for my hair...I don't see you coming to my defense Martha"

ROTFLMAO

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I am starting a new thread so we can continue the discussion on the Donald Trump thread.

Over there, I made a post and embedded a video, but I stripped out the advertising code. Apparently the advertisers of ABC news were not amused and the thread got weird.

I have submitted a ticket and am awaiting IPB customer support to fix this thing--at least delete the screwed up post because I cannot. And anything you post there will make the thread weirder on top of not showing up.

If you want to read the original Trump thread, you can just by clicking on it. However, if you try to get there from "View New Content" or possibly other places, it will go into a constant reload loop. This is not your computer, but a glitch. Just close the tab and go back to OL and use the forum as normal.

After this thing gets fixed, I will merge the posts on this thread to that thread so everything stays in one place.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Michael

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And what better way to start than this:

Trump: I don't need to be lectured
McCain has abandoned our veterans. I will fight for them.
Donald Trump
July 19, 2015
USA Today

I am going to push fair use a bit since the article is so short:

John McCain has called his own constituents who want a secure border “crazies.” No one in the news media or the establishment, including the Republican National Committee, criticized the senator for those comments.

Now, as respected reporter Sharyl Attkisson has proved point by point, the news media are also distorting my words. But that is not my point. McCain the politician has failed the state of Arizona and the country.

During my entire business career, I have always made supporting veterans a top priority because our heroes deserve the very best for defending our freedom. Our Department of Veterans Affairs hospitals are outdated dumps. I will build the finest and most modern veterans hospitals in the world. The current medical assistance to our veterans is a disaster. A Trump administration will provide the finest universal access health care for our veterans. They will be able to get the best care anytime and anywhere.

Thanks to McCain and his Senate colleague Bernie Sanders, their legislation to cover up the VA scandal, in which 1,000+ veterans died waiting for medical care, made sure no one has been punished, charged, jailed, fined or held responsible. McCain has abandoned our veterans. I will fight for them.

The reality is that John McCain the politician has made America less safe, sent our brave soldiers into wrong-headed foreign adventures, covered up for President Obama with the VA scandal and has spent most of his time in the Senate pushing amnesty. He would rather protect the Iraqi border than Arizona’s. He even voted for the Iran Nuclear Review Act of 2015, which allows Obama, who McCain lost to in a record defeat, to push his dangerous Iran nuclear agreement through the Senate without a supermajority of votes.

A number of my competitors for the Republican nomination have no business running for president. I do not need to be lectured by any of them. Many are failed politicians or people who would be unable to succeed in the private sector. Some, however, I have great respect for.

My record of veteran support is well-documented. I served as co-chairman of the New York Vietnam Veterans Memorial Commission and was responsible, with a small group, for getting it built. Toward this end, I contributed over $1 million so our warriors can be honored in New York City with a proper memorial. I also helped finance and served as the grand marshal of the 1995 Nation’s Day Parade, which honored over 25,000 veterans. It was one of the biggest parades in the history of New York City, and I was very proud to have made it possible.

I will continue to fight to secure our border and take care of our veterans because these steps are vital to make America great again!


Every day that passes, I get more and more sure this is my guy.

Get down, Donald. Get all the way down on those who are piling on. And bring a world of hurt to them.

:smile:

Michael

EDIT: I got the link to that article from here:

07.19.2015-21.25.png

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The video of that harridan harlot of hype Martha Raddatz not listening and going on the attack no matter what was said is a perfect example of Statist media...

Martha_Raddatz.png

Can you imagine closing your eyes in bed and sleeping with this next to you?

Clearly, a frontrunner for Evita's Press Secretary...

A...

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Even a blind squirrel finds a nut?

blind-squirrel-md.png

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I just want to go on record somewhere ( and what better place than here ) than Trump will not win the Presidency , nor the Republican nomination . Not talking about what I want , or hope to happen - just what will happen . I have been on the site for a few years and don't know if I have ever disagreed with Ol' MSK but I do big time here .

He will make a huge difference in the coming election , either via support for the eventual winner for the nomination or by making such a mess that the Dems win again or by starting the 3rd party and obviously giving the election to the Dems .

He is a deal maker no doubt , I am really curious who he has already made a deal with .

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I just want to go on record somewhere ( and what better place than here ) than Trump will not win the Presidency , nor the Republican nomination . Not talking about what I want , or hope to happen - just what will happen . I have been on the site for a few years and don't know if I have ever disagreed with Ol' MSK but I do big time here .

He will make a huge difference in the coming election , either via support for the eventual winner for the nomination or by making such a mess that the Dems win again or by starting the 3rd party and obviously giving the election to the Dems .

He is a deal maker no doubt , I am really curious who he has already made a deal with .

Fair enough. Good political argument.

Cruz has refused to join the chorus and consistently cites the Ronald Reagan Rule.

I would like to see your predictions on the thread I started if you haven't yet.

A...

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I posted the following on Pt. 1 but for some reason it doesn't show up.

I'll re-post it here.

Basically I said I agree with Trump.

McCain is no hero but rather a survivor of the hell that was his imprisonment imo.

Now here are 2 real war heroes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York

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