moralist

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Wow...sorry, did not see this thread...http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15299&page=11#entry233190

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Posted Today, 11:08 AM

This is going to get someone killed this Fourth of July:

Quote

US
Activists Plan to Burn American Flags in New York City Ahead of Fourth of July
Jun. 30, 2015 3:31am Oliver Darcy

A group calling for the immediate disarmament of the New York Police Department plans to burn American flags in a Brooklyn park on Wednesday, just days before the Fourth of July holiday.

Quote

“Disarm NYPD” announced the “Burn the American Flags” event on Facebook, inviting individuals to join the organization at Fort Greene Park to “set fire to this symbol of oppression.”
Organizers said accused Charleston shooter Dylann Roof wasn’t an “isolated actor,” but a “product of a consistent pattern of state-sponsored terrorism and radicalized dehumanization in America.” The event originally was aimed at burning the Confederate flag, but later changed to focus on the stars and stripes.

Quote

“There will be no peace until we tear down this system of oppression,” the group wrote on Facebook. “It isn’t enough to take the flag down; we must put an end to white supremacy once and for all.”

After the event attracted online attention, “Disarm NYPD” defended the event in an online statement.


“We find it a sign of the times that people can care so much about a piece of cloth, while at the same time be so quiet about black churches being burned all over the country,” a post on Facebook said. “Perhaps this is the great difference between us and the so-called ‘patriots’. While they express their loyalty to symbols, we express our loyalty to the lives of the oppressed.”

Quote

“We do not believe the ideals of America are anything to be revered.”

It continued, “We do not believe the ideals of America are anything to be revered. We are building something that will be much better than America. While the so-called patriots yell that we should just leave, we instead choose to dream. We dream of what real freedom looks like: freedom from paramilitaries occupying our communities, beating and killing our sons and daughters; freedom from our communities being destroyed by the speculative capital of gentrification; freedom from mass surveillance; and freedom from systemic racism.”

Quote

“So, we will burn the American flag, a symbol of oppression and genocide, and in the same action, dismantle our stunted, cynical expectations of what is possible in the world,” the group’s statement concluded. “The current trajectory of history is unsustainable. It is completely unrealistic to desire things stay as they are, and more unrealistic, even abominable, to desire to ‘go back to our roots’. We, the dreamers, are the true realists. We know things can’t continue this way, so we commit to building a better world. A world better than America.”

http://www.theblaze....fourth-of-july/

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I am experiencing a sense of deju vous. Are American rioters similar to terrorists? Are wanna be right wing murderers, like Roof, terrorists? That monster in Tunisia who killed so many, laughed before he opened fire. Yet in America we can't have hit squads taking out the gangsters. We can't have vigilantes (except in fiction) and expect to keep our own constitution alive.

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Freeze Peach!

1398217436908.png

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Freeze Peach!

1398217436908.png

The cartoonist's Constitutional knowledge is rather weak in panel 1.

The government can arrest you for what you "say."

Freedom of speech does not include the right:

To incite actions that would harm others (e.g., “hout[ing] ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.”).

Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919).

To make or distribute obscene materials.

Roth v. United States, 354 U.S. 476 (1957).

To burn draft cards as an anti-war protest.

United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968).

To permit students to print articles in a school newspaper over the objections of the school administration.

Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988).

Of students to make an obscene speech at a school-sponsored event.

Bethel School District #43 v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986).

Of students to advocate illegal drug use at a school-sponsored event.

Morse v. Frederick, __ U.S. __ (2007).

http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

A...

P.S. In the link is a "limited" list of what does constitute free speech, with the citations.

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All of those are more or less controversial depending on values, not logic, for they are contradicting the First Amendment to some seeming amount. That's okay, to some extent. Many rights in the Bill of Rights can be said to be secondary, not primary. The right to bear arms is secondary to the right to self defense even in turn to the right to life. The last is the primary right to all rights but it is not passive. It means the right to take such actions as one might want of a non-rights-violating nature to further and enhance and secure one's own life by one's own judgment. Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater creates panic and is rights' violating initiation of force, but the SCOTUS didn't use that reasoning as far as I know. Being passive doesn't mean giving up your right to life for no one would thus have the right to come up and bonk you on the head, but reality might.

--Brant

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Freeze Peach!

The cartoonist's Constitutional knowledge is rather weak in panel 1.

The government can arrest you for what you "say."

You can't use a free-speech defense to cause a stampede, if your FIRE! call was false.

You can't burn your draft card because it is an administrative document.

You can publish whatever you want 'within community standards' and within the laws protecting minors from exploitation -- child sexual abuse. See: the internet

You can stand in the full sunlight and scream your abuse (and be arrested for disturbing the peace)

-- the cartoon was meant to add a humorous coda to idjits who feel their freeze peach rights are denied in private forums, or by boycott or bans. See OL v Ludenberg, OL v Seymour, OL v Pross.

Subsequent decisions not noted in your pasta affirmed your right to burn the US flag. See Texas v. Johnson.

In future I will carefully assess your sense of humour before adding a cartoon to the flow of discussion.

The idjits in Brooklyn will mill about and shout and burn a flag (unless it is illegal to start a fire in a public park) and generally look like mad anarchist assholes. The mad anarchist assholes face consequences ... yet if someone beats one of them to death or otherwise harms them, there is no defense available in law as far as I can tell.

And the beat goes on. Idjits be idjits.

Edited by william.scherk

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In future I will carefully assess your sense of humour before adding a cartoon to the flow of discussion.

Bill, just post, live dangerously.

You are potentially misreading how the mob is being primed.

I am glad that you pointed out one of the most misquoted pieces of any of the critical Supreme Court cases in American history.

Even on the site of the link that I posted, they cut off the key word before "shout" and that word was "falsely:"

We admit that, in many places and in ordinary times, the defendants, in saying all that was said in the circular, would have been within their constitutional rights. But the character of every act depends upon the circumstances in which it is done. Aikens v. Wisconsin, 195 U. S. 194, 195 U. S. 205, 195 U. S. 206. The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.

A huge difference. Justice Holmes was still wrong. However, it was wartime and a lot of bad law gets made then. We have been at war for quite a while in America and the recent decisions made by SCOTUS are popular. However, they are built on bad law.

A...

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Off topic, Adam, but what do you think about the decision and dissents in SCOTUS's dismissal of the Arizona gerrymandering case?

-- all your points above are cogent, and in another context you might get a chuckle from the XKCD cartoon. I think it likely that the DisarmNYPD idjits will be met by a far-larger mob of folks indulging their own form of free speech. And the idjits likely will be very happy (if cognitively churning at the dissonance) if the NYPD is there to protect them from physical assaults.

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Wow...sorry, did not see this thread...http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15299&page=11#entry233190

____________________________________________________________________

Posted Today, 11:08 AM

This is going to get someone killed this Fourth of July:

Quote

US

Activists Plan to Burn American Flags in New York City Ahead of Fourth of July

Jun. 30, 2015 3:31am Oliver Darcy

A group calling for the immediate disarmament of the New York Police Department plans to burn American flags in a Brooklyn park on Wednesday, just days before the Fourth of July holiday.

Quote

“Disarm NYPD” announced the “Burn the American Flags” event on Facebook, inviting individuals to join the organization at Fort Greene Park to “set fire to this symbol of oppression.”

Organizers said accused Charleston shooter Dylann Roof wasn’t an “isolated actor,” but a “product of a consistent pattern of state-sponsored terrorism and radicalized dehumanization in America.” The event originally was aimed at burning the Confederate flag, but later changed to focus on the stars and stripes.

Quote

“There will be no peace until we tear down this system of oppression,” the group wrote on Facebook. “It isn’t enough to take the flag down; we must put an end to white supremacy once and for all.”

After the event attracted online attention, “Disarm NYPD” defended the event in an online statement.

“We find it a sign of the times that people can care so much about a piece of cloth, while at the same time be so quiet about black churches being burned all over the country,” a post on Facebook said. “Perhaps this is the great difference between us and the so-called ‘patriots’. While they express their loyalty to symbols, we express our loyalty to the lives of the oppressed.”

Quote

“We do not believe the ideals of America are anything to be revered.”

It continued, “We do not believe the ideals of America are anything to be revered. We are building something that will be much better than America. While the so-called patriots yell that we should just leave, we instead choose to dream. We dream of what real freedom looks like: freedom from paramilitaries occupying our communities, beating and killing our sons and daughters; freedom from our communities being destroyed by the speculative capital of gentrification; freedom from mass surveillance; and freedom from systemic racism.”

Quote

“So, we will burn the American flag, a symbol of oppression and genocide, and in the same action, dismantle our stunted, cynical expectations of what is possible in the world,” the group’s statement concluded. “The current trajectory of history is unsustainable. It is completely unrealistic to desire things stay as they are, and more unrealistic, even abominable, to desire to ‘go back to our roots’. We, the dreamers, are the true realists. We know things can’t continue this way, so we commit to building a better world. A world better than America.”

http://www.theblaze....fourth-of-july/

Thankfully, William was correct. There are some great photos from the confrontation.

Here is what happened at Fort Green Park and flag burning:

A group calling itself Disarm NYPD announced the event online last week, inviting people to join them in burning the Confederate flag as a protest against racism. The group later decided to go ahead and toss in the American flag as well, claiming it to be a modern-day symbol of oppression and racial violence, and news of the event quickly spread through the national media — which turned out in force to cover the protest.

The event was slated to take place at the corner of Myrtle Avenue and Washington Place in Fort Greene Park, but when defenders of the stars and stripes showed up in patriotic regalia to fight back, there were no flag-burners in sight.

That is because the activist group was actually performing the promised torching in a tiny barbecue directly in front of the Prison Ship Martyr’s Monument in the center of the park. When smoke arose over the hill, the pro-flag protesters took off running and found a small group of activists — about a dozen, according to cops — most of whom scattered when confronted with incensed members of Bay Ridge motorcycle club the Hallowed Sons.

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/38/28/dtg-fort-greene-flag-burning-2015-07-10-bk.html?utm_source=20150702&utm_medium=email&utm_content=storylink&utm_campaign=newsletter

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