Michael Stuart Kelly

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Greg is saying there is an individual, personal way in present-day America that you don't reference. He never goes macro like you do which is the opposite side of the coin of legitimate criticism for you never go micro.

My complaint was on this one thing. Greg goes all wrong with all his ad hominem approach to discussion and I've repeatedly called him out on it, even about you although I came to the decision to leave you and him alone with it for it seems to do you no harm and him no good.

Your macro doesn't match up with his micro. Neither truly represents an integration of the two even though Greg does give some mention to what a wonderful country this is to entreprenureal producers and how the parasites deserve the world they make for themselves respecting their government. It's their government. As for me, I have no real information about what kind of man is behind the curtain. I am 97.63% sure you are a man. Greg is out in the open, more or less.

--Brant

As for Rand and Greg and their definitions of economic freedom, I never go into those caves--nor yours; I already know how to breathe (thank you, Ayn, and goodbye) and I have no use for libertarian anarchy or any other utopian thinking (thank you Ayn, and goodbye) except for basic reference and lucidity for the only way to get Utopia is with genocide as opposed to in principle fighting for and moving toward more in human personal, moral and political freedoms, of which economic is the least of it being automatically derivative off those necessary antecedents

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In an individual, personal way, one could live as a cat burglar in Galt's Gulch and then brag about how parasitism is alive and well.

When government takes one-fourth of the nation's GDP and controls all of the economy's pressure points, it is self-delusion to think of that country as a free market in any meaningful sense of the term. Of course there are shadows where one can operate without Big Brother's scrutiny. There were black markets in the Soviet Union, too.

Furthermore, as government grows, the less the economy grows. And, of course, more government, less individual freedom.

I have never disparaged individuals who heroically escape the clutches of red tape and interference. But operating in the shadows necessitates risks and opportunity costs. Nothing stops a person from selling millions of boxes of cereal without nutrition labels--except the federal government. Nothing stops a person from hiring thousands of teenagers for under $7/hr.--except the federal government.

One of the points most clearly made by the conclusion of Atlas Shrugged is that it's not just a village full of entrepreneurs who are worth saving; it's an entire nation whose name used to be synonymous with freedom that also matters.

If the Moralist has completely escaped the IRS, the Fed, the FDA, the FEC, the FCC, the NSA, and the rest of the alphabet nomenklatura commanded by Obama, bravo! But why all the whining and insulting directed towards those want to shrink Washington at least down to pre-New Deal size?

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Greg is saying there is an individual, personal way in present-day America that you don't reference. He never goes macro like you do which is the opposite side of the coin of legitimate criticism for you never go micro.

Frank will never understand what it means to live like an American today, Brant.

He doesn't dare to reference the micro personal level without admitting his own failure at that level... and his avoidance only highlights it even more. So by default all he's left with is droning on about dry macro theory like a stale government funded academic who can only talk because he can't do.

Micro is the only place where an individual has autonomous control and can take positive action. That's the only place where things actually get done. Everything else is just empty impotent intellectual word-drivel.

Greg

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f the Moralist has completely escaped the IRS, the Fed, the FDA, the FEC, the FCC, the NSA, and the rest of the alphabet nomenklatura commanded by Obama, bravo! But why all the whining and insulting directed towards those want to shrink Washington at least down to pre-New Deal size?

Well, Nathaniel Branden called it The Disowned Self. I have no way to know if it applies to Greg and I do not do what he does and tell him it does anyway, But such a self would see you as a reproach to a smart person who turned his back on "a life of the mind." (NB's description of Ayn Rand who was all about what Greg is not that way.)

--Brant

PS: As usual, Greg, I don't agree with everything you say for you take what might be a legit generality and apply it to one particular person through interpretation of his words, not actual observation of his living, functioning person--nor is anyone under any obligation to defend himself from you by coming with the missing data even if it's true of him or her

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I answered you in Post #151:

Just another reminder that you're still avoiding the question, Frank. And I'll just keep reminding you every time you evade it.

Why are Americans securing their economic freedom just the way things are right now... while you can't?

Your avoidance raises another question of why you would need to evade such a dimple direct question of why Americans are able to do what you can't... and they do it in spite of the government... while you whine about it oppressing you.

I am delighted to hear that you live in that portion of the United States where there are no federal taxes; no federal restrictions on oil drilling, mining, farming, or forestry; no EPA restrictions; no federal minimum wage; no federal welfare program; no Federal Reserve-controlled currency or interest rates; no Anti-Trust Division; no federally managed educational institutions; and no federal gun restrictions.

Truth is, I live and work in an area with the highest taxes and some of the most stringent government regulations in the nation. No one can buy into our neighborhood for under seven figures. I have prospered here for decades regardless of the government or who happens to be in office.

And I'm able to do it because I live by American values...

...which also explains why you can't.

Greg

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If the Moralist has completely escaped the IRS, the Fed, the FDA, the FEC, the FCC, the NSA, and the rest of the alphabet nomenklatura commanded by Obama, bravo!

But I don't escape it, Frank... I rise above it by being an American Capitalist producer. You can only think of escape because you can't properly deal with the world as it is right now.

While the failures can only dream of Utopia... the successful are building their own.

Your comments have made it clear that this is something about which you know nothing because you produce nothing.

Greg

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Now you're playing the same kind of words games as FF, Greg.

It was clear to everyone, except you apparently (or maybe not), that this "rising above" you speak of is what he was asking about, and that he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

And you effectively answered him by saying "I just *did*."

(Also, Brant, you mentioned something a few pages back about how college students here disappear [can't figure out how to quote stuff on the mobile version of the site]... From my own perspective, it's not disappearing, it's that we just don't post often... Which I grant you could be what you meant, but we're, at least, I'm, still here.)

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

I know part of what you are going to say. You will say the non-producers pay both their own taxes and other people's taxes because they are losers.

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

Yes... and it's not just me.

Every business passes all of their costs onto the end user.

It's amazes me that no one seems to understand this elementary business principle. It's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Like I'm the only one who has ever put it into words.

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

All everyone here seems to think of is escape! :laugh:

The answer is so simple.

I produce more than I consume... way more. :wink:

Greg

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Now you're playing the same kind of words games as FF, Greg.

It was clear to everyone, except you apparently (or maybe not), that this "rising above" you speak of is what he was asking about, and that he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

And you effectively answered him by saying "I just *did*."

(Also, Brant, you mentioned something a few pages back about how college students here disappear [can't figure out how to quote stuff on the mobile version of the site]... From my own perspective, it's not disappearing, it's that we just don't post often... Which I grant you could be what you meant, but we're, at least, I'm, still here.)

I think I meant and said high school students here who went to college, not any who found OL while in college. Spread the word!

--Brant

you're still here?--go away!

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

Yes... and it's not just me.

Every business passes all of their costs onto the end user.

It's amazes me that no one seems to understand this elementary business principle. It's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Like I'm the only one who has ever put it into words.

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

All everyone here seems to think of is escape! :laugh:

The answer is so simple.

I produce more than I consume... way more. :wink:

Greg

I rob banks.

--Brant

what's left over I put into the bank--ergo, I produce more than I consume (come and get me you dirty coppers!)

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he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

The answer will always be the same:

I produce more than I consume. It's called making money. All I'm doing is following Ayn Rand's advice in Franscisco's Money Speech. I believe that is the most effing awesome thing she ever wrote.

Jeez... isn't there anyone here who has actually read it? If they have, is anyone here actually doing anything about it?

I am. :smile:

Greg

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

Yes... and it's not just me.

Every business passes all of their costs onto the end user.

It's amazes me that no one seems to understand this elementary business principle. It's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Like I'm the only one who has ever put it into words.

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

All everyone here seems to think of is escape! :laugh:

The answer is so simple.

I produce more than I consume... way more. :wink:

Greg

I rob banks.

Even though you're just joking around... robbing banks produces nothing. :wink:

Greg

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he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

The answer will always be the same:

I produce more than I consume. It's called making money. All I'm doing is following Ayn Rand's advice in Franscisco's Money Speech. I believe that is the most effing awesome thing she ever wrote.

Jeez... isn't there anyone here who has actually read it? If they have, is anyone here actually doing anything about it?

I am. :smile:

Greg

I put it in the top ten of Ayn's work and possibly the top five.

Hell, the first damn paragraph slam dunks the concept.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced."

"But money is only a tool."

"Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?"

In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law – men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims – then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

Paging Sir Jeb The Reluctant and Evita The Shameless...

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

original source: Part II, Section 2, pages 387-391 of the paperback edition of

"Atlas Shrugged" [1957 novel] by Ayn Rand

A...

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

Yes... and it's not just me.

Every business passes all of their costs onto the end user.

It's amazes me that no one seems to understand this elementary business principle. It's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Like I'm the only one who has ever put it into words.

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

All everyone here seems to think of is escape! :laugh:

The answer is so simple.

I produce more than I consume... way more. :wink:

Greg

I rob banks.

Even though you're just joking around... robbing banks produces nothing. :wink:

Greg

I have other sources of income. Another job is to counterfeit 100 dollar bills and drop them from helicopters on poor people so they can spend them at WalMart stimulating the economy in which you dwell producing more than you consume so it's a win/win for all of us.

-- Alan Brant, The Maestro

you can pay thank me with applause

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he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

The answer will always be the same:

I produce more than I consume. It's called making money. All I'm doing is following Ayn Rand's advice in Franscisco's Money Speech. I believe that is the most effing awesome thing she ever wrote.

Jeez... isn't there anyone here who has actually read it? If they have, is anyone here actually doing anything about it?

I am. :smile:

Greg

I put it in the top ten of Ayn's work and possibly the top five.

Hell, the first damn paragraph slam dunks the concept.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

A...

I've read those words a zillion times and they still give me chills. :smile:

What Ayn Rand wrote was not empty intellectual academic theoretical drivel. It's concrete practical real world advice on the ethical propriety of making and managing money. I simply built my business on her principles, and it has supplied all of our needs and wants for decades... regardless of all of the government taxes and regulations.

America offers everyone exactly the same opportunity to earn their own economic freedom. And if people fail to make use of that opportunity, it isn't because of the government...

...it's their own God damned fault.

Greg

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Question for Greg:

You don't pay taxes because you as a producer include your taxes in the price of the product or service you sell. So your customers pay your taxes for you. Is that correct so far?

Yes... and it's not just me.

Every business passes all of their costs onto the end user.

It's amazes me that no one seems to understand this elementary business principle. It's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Like I'm the only one who has ever put it into words.

But consider. When you buy food or a car or a computer or furniture or a fridge, you yourself are a customer and the price of what you buy includes someone else's taxes. So just as your customers pay your taxes for you, you as a customer pay someone else's taxes.

So did you really escape paying taxes?

All everyone here seems to think of is escape! :laugh:

The answer is so simple.

I produce more than I consume... way more. :wink:

Greg

I rob banks.

Even though you're just joking around... robbing banks produces nothing. :wink:

Greg

I have other sources of income. Another job is to counterfeit 100 dollar bills and drop them from helicopters on poor people so they can spend them at WalMart stimulating the economy in which you dwell producing more than you consume so it's a win/win for all of us.

-- Alan Brant, The Maestro

you can pay thank me with applause

I thought that was Ben Bernanke. Wasn't his nickname "Helicopter Ben"? :wink:

Greg

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You finally got me. Your patience has paid off.

--Brant

at least I have my own private operation in my basement

So do I. :smile:

It took me a year to jackhammer out a 12' x24' basement under our house.

IMG_5009.jpg

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Now you're playing the same kind of words games as FF, Greg.

It was clear to everyone, except you apparently (or maybe not), that this "rising above" you speak of is what he was asking about, and that he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

And you effectively answered him by saying "I just *did*."

(Also, Brant, you mentioned something a few pages back about how college students here disappear [can't figure out how to quote stuff on the mobile version of the site]... From my own perspective, it's not disappearing, it's that we just don't post often... Which I grant you could be what you meant, but we're, at least, I'm, still here.)

I think I meant and said high school students here who went to college, not any who found OL while in college. Spread the word!

--Brant

you're still here?--go away!

Ah, so you did, my apologies. I suppose it doesn't count that I found O-ism in high school, and OL once I got to college, does it?

I did meet a guy in an English course who was a huge fan of Rand -- but in an extremely unhealthy way... Absolutely consumed, and convinced that she was right to call her philosophy as she conceived of it as completely perfect in every possible way. I sometimes regret that I didn't try to show him to this place, as I myself started out as he was when I first found Rand.

I did, however, call him out for plagiarizing massive sections of essays by Don Watkins and Yaron Brook (and actually the opening lines of the Money Speech) for his proselytizing endeavors. The professor (very liberal, very feminist) applauded me for it... Until I said I'm a huge fan of Objectivism, and simply didn't want this random student to take credit for these great ideas. (Not strictly true in the sense the professor took it, but the look on his face was priceless as he muttered under his breath that such infighting is bound to happen under such a "self-absorbed" worldview.

he was asking just how exactly you managed to do that while still living and working and trading in this country.

The answer will always be the same:

I produce more than I consume. It's called making money. All I'm doing is following Ayn Rand's advice in Franscisco's Money Speech. I believe that is the most effing awesome thing she ever wrote.

Jeez... isn't there anyone here who has actually read it? If they have, is anyone here actually doing anything about it?

I am. :smile:

Greg

Plenty of people produce more than they consume, yet still pay taxes, obey regulatory measures, and comply with myriad other mix economy absurdities.

So you're still evading the real meat of the question, it seems.

(But this is just whining from a looter who can't control his life, right?)

-David

absolutely will not go away

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-David

absolutely will not go away

So sad, we finally get an intelligent young man to stick around and he has to get in John Brant's face!!

And he was so young too...

Brant will start off with a warning shotgun.gif

then if he misses which is rare and you don't take the warning, well then it gets really ugly

transformer-gun.gif

I tried to warn him...

A...

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You had to go tell him about John Brant!

Now he'll get away!

--John Brant

a big one too, nutz! (we almost had him!)

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Plenty of people produce more than they consume, yet still pay taxes, obey regulatory measures, and comply with myriad other mix economy absurdities.

There sure are. :smile:

I'm obviously not the only American who enjoys economic independence in the present economic climate. In fact I'm among the least of them. There are lots of other Americans who are way more successful than I'll ever be. Heck, I haven't even been educated in a government college, although I consider that to be a advantage not to have been brainwashed by the drivel of useless tenured unproductive do nothing government benefits dependent leeches.

I can tell you this... there is more value in Ayn Rand's Francisco Money Speech than in any government school. What I learned from her I put to use in my life.

So you're still evading the real meat of the question, it seems.

What would you like to know? Ask whatever you want and I'll be happy to respond with specifics.

Greg

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-David

absolutely will not go away

I tried to warn him...

A...

Pff, don't try play the disappointed would-be hero.

You did no such thing.

(Else I'm losing my mind... Was inevitable I suppose. The signs where there are all along -- I didn't used to be so forgetful.)

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From the Money Speech: "You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood – money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities."

This crumbling civilization and jungle creeping into the cities that Francisco mentioned--what's the problem? All one had to do was rise above it by being an American Capitalist producer! In fact, why were all the heroes in the book sneaking off to Atlantis? All they had to do was produce more dollars than the looters consumed.

Problem solved. Atlas Shrugged could have ended 700 pages sooner.

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