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Coincidentally, I'm in the middle of a re-read (its been 20 yrs) of The Psychology of Self-Esteem.

Thanks for writing it. R.I.P.

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now they need to find someone new they can call devil.

mirror-smiley-emoticon-emoji.png

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

I have mentioned the Landmark Education seminars as being helpful for folks.

One aspect that is fundamental to "transforming," [seems to be the new "ok" word of today's culture] is to place the past where it always has been...the past.

Not a single one of us can change one event that happened yesterday let alone 47 years ago.

A...

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

I have mentioned the Landmark Education seminars as being helpful for folks.

One aspect that is fundamental to "transforming," [seems to be the new "ok" word of today's culture] is to place the past where it always has been...the past.

Not a single one of us can change one event that happened yesterday let alone 47 years ago.

A...

Obviously you're not an historian.

--John Brant

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

I have mentioned the Landmark Education seminars as being helpful for folks.

One aspect that is fundamental to "transforming," [seems to be the new "ok" word of today's culture] is to place the past where it always has been...the past.

Not a single one of us can change one event that happened yesterday let alone 47 years ago.

A...

Obviously you're not an historian.

--John Brant

Ah Churchill...

I would prefer being a historian that did history not "changing" it to fit an agenda.

Some would call it being an honest historian...

A,,,

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

I have mentioned the Landmark Education seminars as being helpful for folks.

One aspect that is fundamental to "transforming," [seems to be the new "ok" word of today's culture] is to place the past where it always has been...the past.

Not a single one of us can change one event that happened yesterday let alone 47 years ago.

A...

Obviously you're not an historian.

--John Brant

Ah Churchill...

I would prefer being a historian that did history not "changing" it to fit an agenda.

Some would call it being an honest historian...

A,,,

Speak of the devil.....Some rational Objectivist wandered over onto one of the FB groups claiming to be Objectivist. He posted something like, "Why is this obssession with the Brandens still going on?" And got hit by a shitstorm of epic proportions, with...you guessed it....Jim Valliant posting to "set the record straight". At least he was polite (but wrong), but others vented their hatred with highly intellectual arguments, such as referring to the Brandens as well, literally, shit under their shoe. So almost 50 years later, some just can't get rid of the Branden odor,...er legacy. My guess though is that most shreiking their hatred were not even around at the time and have not bothered to read any of the three biographies, and certainly not the despised Passion of Ayn Rand by the malodorous (to them) Barbara. Of course, Nathaniel's memoirs are untouhable. .

What this reminded me of was the ritualistic and frequired "Five minute Hate"seesions which citizens had to do in Orwell's 1984.

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Selene, re the mirror graphic - hilarious - and accurate!

I hope that one day, Nathaniel's birthday will be an occasion to recognize and honor his very significant contributions both to psychology and to Objectivism as a philosophy.

Additionally, his contributions (primarily through speeches and oral presentations at conferences) to efforts to reconcile the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism, as a movement.(as contrasted to the substantial philosophical differences between the two).

Unfortunately, there still are occasional references in online forums and in social groups (i.e., Facebook) to the 1968 break, with condemnations of the Brandens as if the dispute had just occurred.

I have mentioned the Landmark Education seminars as being helpful for folks.

One aspect that is fundamental to "transforming," [seems to be the new "ok" word of today's culture] is to place the past where it always has been...the past.

Not a single one of us can change one event that happened yesterday let alone 47 years ago.

A...

Obviously you're not an historian.

--John Brant

Ah Churchill...

I would prefer being a historian that did history not "changing" it to fit an agenda.

Some would call it being an honest historian...

A,,,

Speak of the devil.....Some rational Objectivist wandered over onto one of the FB groups claiming to be Objectivist. He posted something like, "Why is this obssession with the Brandens still going on?" And got hit by a shitstorm of epic proportions, with...you guessed it....Jim Valliant posting to "set the record straight". At least he was polite (but wrong), but others vented their hatred with highly intellectual arguments, such as referring to the Brandens as well, literally, shit under their shoe. So almost 50 years later, some just can't get rid of the Branden odor,...er legacy. My guess though is that most shreiking their hatred were not even around at the time and have not bothered to read any of the three biographies, and certainly not the despised Passion of Ayn Rand by the malodorous (to them) Barbara. Of course, Nathaniel's memoirs are untouhable. .

What this reminded me of was the ritualistic and frequired "Five minute Hate"seesions which citizens had to do in Orwell's 1984.

I do not use Facebook, however, if you would not mind PMing me with it, I might want to check it out.

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Jerry,

I saw that. I could not read Valliant's stuff, though, because he probably blocked me. (I never sought anything from him, so this only means he did not like me joining the group.)

From the one-sided interaction I did see, his real impact is a junkyard dog barking. He has no cultural impact anywhere outside of ortho circles except places like closed Facebook groups. And even then, it's only one or two non-ortho posters who even speak of him in terms that reflect they agree with him on something. (Generally, Frank's drinking.)

Valliant takes what he can get, but that kind of thing is all he can get.

The destiny of boneheads. :smile:

Adam,

This is in a closed Facebook group called For New Intellectuals with about 2,500 members so far. You have to ask to join, but they accepted me for some damn reason. :smile:

It seems to be a mix of orthos and independents. I expect over time the orthos will make a mass exit because the independents do push back at times. Orthos generally need compliance to stick around, not real debate.

Some are already calling for the poster of the Branden thread to be moderated.

Michael

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This is in a closed Facebook group called For New Intellectuals with about 2,500 members so far. You have to ask to join, but they accepted me for some damn reason. :smile:

It seems to be a mix of orthos and independents. I expect over time the orthos will make a mass exit because the independents do push back at times. Orthos generally need compliance to stick around, not real debate.

I just saw a couple of threads over on this site and it illustrates perfectly the difference between OL and many other O-Land places.

A newbie (I think he's a newbie) opened a thread saying he read Ayn Rand but did not agree with everything she wrote. Then he went on stating his confusions over free will or whatever, without saying he was confused about it. The result was some expected snark, but another poster opened a new thread asking why everyone who reads Ayn Rand has to tell folks they read her, but do not agree with everything she wrote.

This thread exploded. Oodles of likes and outright "us against them" discussions among the commenters, with both us and them participating. And the thread was an obvious snipe against the newbie.

I normally don't comment on what goes on at other sites, but this is such a good example, I think it will be useful for OL readers.

While I am glad the "us against them" folks are finally slugging it out (I truly believe this is healthy if for no other reason than to get people interested in Rand from different viewpoints actually talking to each other), notice the two approaches.

The first poster is working through Rand's ideas. Maybe his expression was not the best, but it's obvious he is not a Randian expert. And he is struggling with the brainwashing from academia about free will not existing.

The second poster is preaching to the choir and will hold no truck with a person using his own mind about Rand. It's either the doctrine or the road. If you have doubts, come in humbly and ask to be enlightened on the wisdom from your moral betters. Do not dare question on your own. Or, at least, if you do, keep your mouth shut about it. We don't want to hear that garbage.

I think this preachy approach is lamentable, at least for my life, but it does serve the tribal urges in the human subconscious. Many people in O-Land have a real need to scratch that itch.

Although OL seems to be against Rand at times, our policy is to let people work through the ideas out loud. (So long as they are honestly doing that and not trolling.)

Some day I hope those who are into the us against them mindset realize they are not dealing with an enemy every time a person tries to reconcile his or her sudden attraction to Rand's ideas with what they picked up over their lives.

Working through ideas is messy. And it takes time.

The more I live, the more I believe this is as it should be.

God help us if we could pump out ideological robotic humans by pushing a button.

Apropos, I like the idea of discussing this on an NB thread. He devoted his life to giving space to people to work through ideas on their own. He guided them as a therapist, but he ultimately had them do the work and let them express it, warts and all. Sometimes it got ugly, but it was always people honestly trying to use their minds in the best way they knew how.

I think of OL like that without the therapy.

Either way, this is healthy.

Michael

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I wouldn't be so sure on the "without therapy" thing, Michael.

I'd say reading the stuff here on OL was very good for me in that context. Saved me from the cesspool that is the Ortho mindset, and that's of great psychological value.

Certainly not on the level of any (good, professional) therapist, but therapeutic in its own right nonetheless.

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I wouldn't be so sure on the "without therapy" thing, Michael.

I'd say reading the stuff here on OL was very good for me in that context. Saved me from the cesspool that is the Ortho mindset, and that's of great psychological value.

Certainly not on the level of any (good, professional) therapist, but therapeutic in its own right nonetheless.

David,

Thank you for that thought. The discussions on OL have actually had a therapeutic effect on me, too.

I want to update a couple of my observations above.

In my post referencing Valliant, a person offline suggested to me he might have deleted his posts on Facebook rather than blocked anyone. Fair enough. He might have.

And the "second poster" thread in the Facebook group I mentioned above is not longer there, at least it wasn't when I just now checked. So I presume it has been deleted.

I don't want to keep reporting on this, but some people might read this thread here on OL, go there and not find the things mentioned here.

So there it is.

Or isn't...

:smile:

Michael

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