Guyau Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Jonathan must be on to something true, as Greg hides behind a smiley. “Our own self-inflicted suffering.” Glad to see that our. How about our own self-attained happiness? As in happiness and success manifest in many atheist folk at this site, and in Greg, a theist . . . no, correction . . . a could-care-less about objective truth of that theo matter, rather, duck into subjectivism and get on with the usual political drivel. Love defined would be as in the first entry in your dictionary. Love from God would be the agape sort and, as among your fellows (that our you slipped into), the philos sort. Don’t play innocent of such instruction or pretend that your perpetual ill wishes for humanity and evasion of their goodness is love or put the blame for your hatred on God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 11 hours ago, moralist said: Thanks, Bob. This goes a long way to explaining why we each have such totally different views of the world. I'm also self taught, except without any government education because it would have been a totally senseless waste of time for what I do. Each of our paths went in completely opposite directions. You became an employee while I became an entrepreneur. My son in law also started out as an employee writing code, except he quit, started his own business, and is a successful website architect for the major film studios. What I find odd is that for all of your many years of government education and decades long career you never saw the beautiful transcendent reality that mathematics is a language which pays honor to something far beyond itself. Neither you nor anyone else, no matter how intelligent or highly educated could have ever created the sublimely well ordered principles of mathematics, you could only discover what had already existed. Greg There is nothing wrong with laboring for a wage. A good wage in exchange for good work. It is what keeps the world moving. If everyone were self employed we would not be as well off as we are. Some labor specializations conduce to self employment, others do not. To do what I do well (solve problems) I need the capital provided by others. In fact it is because others need to gather or form capital that I have an opportunity to do what I do best, which is solved problems (mathematically) and write algorithms. You have a problem, I have a solution (sometimes). It is a good straight forward relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: You know math? I know enough math to recognize the obvious fact that it's well ordered and transcendent. pi Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: There is nothing wrong with laboring for a wage. I totally agree, Bob. I was only noting that two totally different paths give rise to two totally different views of the world. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 13 minutes ago, Guyau said: Love defined would be as in the first entry in your dictionary. How do you in your own words define love as applied to your statement? And can you give a concrete example of your definition? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyau Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Which statement? Which question? SB "Love" - v. to value, to esteem, as in "I love the springtime at our place" or "I love man, the glory of the earth." American Heritage Dictionary - 6. Theology - a. God's benevolence and mercy toward man. b. Man's devotion to or adoration of God. c. The benevolence, kindness, or brotherhood that man should rightfully feel toward others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 44 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Mathematics is a human creation and activity from beginning to end. That's the pitfall of government indoctrinated secular hubris... to actually feel entitled to take unearned credit for laws you could never create. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, moralist said: I totally agree, Bob. I was only noting that two totally different paths give rise to two totally different views of the world. Greg Not necessarily. An honest worker knows his wage comes from one who has deployed capital. Workers and Capitalists. Like two hands clasped together. As a worker I have always promoted capitalism. That is where my wage comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, moralist said: That's the pitfall of government indoctrinated secular hubris... to actually feel entitled to take unearned credit for laws you could never create. Greg Nonsense. I have done mathematics, some of it rather difficult and deep. I know how it is made. Do you???? God may have made Heaven and Earth but the Devil created religion to blind the eye and enslave the mind. The quasi-religious view of mathematics is not supported by real honest to goodness working mathematicians. It is the mathematicians who know how and why mathematics was made, not people with a vested interest in religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Not necessarily. An honest worker knows his wage comes from one who has deployed capital. Workers and Capitalists. Like two hands clasped together. As a worker I have always promoted capitalism. That is where my wage comes from. I was referencing our totally different views on God, Bob. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 16 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Nonsense. I have done mathematics, some of it rather difficult and deep. I know how it is made. Do you???? Yes I do. You only discovered the logical order of principles which were already there. You created nothing. Feelings of unearned entitlement of taking credit for making something you didn't create and could never create, are a product of government education. They imprinted your mind. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, moralist said: I was referencing our totally different views on God, Bob. Greg I was raised on the view from Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai). God is powerful. Do not fuck with God. God is also pathetic. Only a pathetic Deity would command Love. Now how can one love a God that kills children??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 23 minutes ago, Guyau said: Which statement? Which question? SB "Love" - v. to value, to esteem, as in "I love the springtime at our place" or "I love man, the glory of the earth." American Heritage Dictionary - 6. Theology - a. God's benevolence and mercy toward man. b. Man's devotion to or adoration of God. c. The benevolence, kindness, or brotherhood that man should rightfully feel toward others. You said: It is often said that God is love and that God loves the world and man. Could you offer your definition of that love in your own words and give a concrete example of it? I'll comment when you've made it clear what you mean by love in that context. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 36 minutes ago, moralist said: I know enough math to recognize the obvious fact that it's well ordered and transcendent. pi Greg I mean know math to do math--and I don't mean arithmetic. I don't. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: I mean know math to do math--and I don't mean arithmetic. I don't. --Brant I know that no man could have ever created the logical laws that make mathematics possible. Although I know there are many who falsely take credit for what they didn't make, but only discovered. This feeling of unearned entitlement is a product of government education. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 29 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Nonsense. I have done mathematics, some of it rather difficult and deep. I know how it is made. Do you???? God may have made Heaven and Earth but the Devil created religion to blind the eye and enslave the mind. The quasi-religious view of mathematics is not supported by real honest to goodness working mathematicians. It is the mathematicians who know how and why mathematics was made, not people with a vested interest in religion. I think Newton would agree with Greg here. But Newton was deeply religious. --Brant we do know math is validated by reality congruence and we had nothing to do with the creation of reality, just its identification and exploitation--in that sense men built Hoover Dam but they did not create the laws of reality that made the dam possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: I was raised on the view from Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai). God is powerful. Do not fuck with God. God is also pathetic. Only a pathetic Deity would command Love. Now how can one love a God that kills children??? What I know of God is totally different from your view. People destroy themselves with their own self inflicted evil. I don't blame God for that... and you do. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, moralist said: I know that no man could have ever created the logical laws that make mathematics possible. Although I know there are many who falsely take credit for what they didn't make, but only discovered. Greg Neither you nor Bob can cross each other's semantical bridge so you argue about very little very much. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyau Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Oh, I see. I've told you what I mean by the term 'love', two senses with two examples, since then. But as for the statement you had in mind, in which I said "It is often said" I should add: When people say God is love, they mean various things, but mainly, if versed, I think they mean the pure outflowing love that goes under 'agape'. And when the passage "For God so loved the world that . . . [perhaps an echo of the older characterization of Prometheus' love for man]" is read, I think the traditional thought has also been of agape. Of course not all who love God or who recite Bible passages are that versed in theological distinctions. And their saying God is love and their loving God and their fellows is good enough for real goodness, without any quibbling. God's incessant love is in no wise excuse for Greg's incessant hatred of his fellows, and Greg does not speak for God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said: I think Newton would agree with Greg here. But Newton was deeply religious. --Brant we do know math is validated by reality congruence and we had nothing to do with the creation of reality, just its identification and exploitation--in that sense men built Hoover Dam but they did not create the laws of reality that made the dam possible They first learned the physics (there hard way -- observing, measuring, thinking) then they built the dam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said: I was raised on the view from Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai). God is powerful. Do not fuck with God. God is also pathetic. Only a pathetic Deity would command Love. Now how can one love a God that kills children??? For that matter, how can one love a God that allows there to be mosquito bites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 16 minutes ago, PDS said: For that matter, how can one love a God that allows there to be mosquito bites? We eat cows to live and mosquitoes eat us to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 36 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: They first learned the physics (there hard way -- observing, measuring, thinking) then they built the dam. Yea... and from their observing, measuring, and thinking they became aware of pre-existing principles which they did not create. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Guyau said: I think they mean the pure outflowing love that goes under 'agape'. And can you offer a concrete example of what you think they mean by "agape"? Quote God's incessant love is in no wise excuse for Greg's incessant hatred of his fellows, and Greg does not speak for God. It is perceived as hate only when there is an emotional feelings based tendency to take things personally when they aren't at all. It's true, I only speak about God... only from what I know by my own direct personal experience of the objective reality of the consequences of my own actions in my own life. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 39 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: We eat cows to live and mosquitoes eat us to live. Understood. But I am hoping to make a more subtle point. Any complaint you might make about God's actions, such as allowing "evil" really comes down to a complaint that God has not constructed a perfect world. I assume you are familiar with this form of Nirvana fallacy. Let's say your complaint was that God allows the very worst disease imaginable, and therefore, to use your word, is "pathetic". Let's name that diseases cancer for young children. Assume further that God heard your prayers or otherwise decided to eliminate that disease. The result of that action by God be to would leave the human race with what used to be the 2nd worst disease, maybe cholera for children or something. The only way there would not be a complaint about God in, for instance, the realm of disease would be for him to eliminate all diseases. And then, once all diseases were eliminated, we would complain that God allows sneezing, coughing, or broken arms, since--at that point in time--those conditions would be the worst medical conditions left. Etc. Etc. Eventually, after many prayers and much compliance by God in response to your complaints, you'll get to mosquito bites. Mosquito bites will be the worst element of the human condition left. God thus cannot win unless he eliminates anything we view, through our human lenses, as negative. Until, of course, he constructs a perfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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