Why is there religion???

[BaalChatzaf]

47 minutes ago, merjet said:

The moralist and master of self-delusion strikes again ... and again.

 

 

You still pay taxes and hope you are able to recoup the expense from customers buying what you make or do.  There is no guarantee that you will succeed. Good for you if you do,  too bad if you don't.  You still have to make a check out to the government just like the rest of the peasants. 

I was an independent contractor  for 15 years.  I still considered taxes  as an expense that had to be recouped out of future earnings. 

[moralist]

12 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Which European liberal socialist insists that taxes reduce productivity and employment thus lowering the amounts of goods and services available for consumption?

I don't experience the effect you're describing. But I do believe what you're saying holds true for you. It just doesn't apply to me because I operate within a different economic system than you do.

There's a Capitalist principle of production you won't understand because you're not one. This principle is called:

PARITY

When people buy my goods and services, the cost of government is already built into the purchase price they pay me. Npw I also buy goods and services with the cost of government already built into the purchase price I pay. (Here's the part what you won't get.) There is parity between what I'm paid and what I pay. Since I'm a Capitalist my economic well being is built upon the foundation of capital, and not credit and debt like most people. I'm also a producer and always produce more than I consume, so I always have extra profits to invest in other financial ventures as the opportunities arise. Solvency is what makes me immune from the effects of the debt based economy. I've prospered through decades of cyclical debt bubble collapses.

As to the description of your complaint about taxes... There's not a God damned thing you can do about them. You're totally powerless. Complaining about them is an utterly meaningless waste of your time and energy, because you have absolutely no possible solution in your own life.

In contrast to your situation, I did find my own solution. It's being a Capitalist producer. I create my own wealth and use it to buy my own freedom.

 

 

Greg

 

 

[moralist]

11 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

You pay your taxes because that is the law.  .

I pay no taxes. My clients pay all of my taxes. I already told you that you'll never understand this because you're not a Capitalist producer.

 

Quote

If there was no government neither you nor I would be paying taxes.

...and if pigs had wings, they'd fly!

But there IS a government, Bob... I live just fine in this world just as it is right now. You are welcome to live in your intellectual "if" fantasies.

 

Greg

[moralist]

7 hours ago, merjet said:

The moralist and master of self-delusion strikes again ... and again.

The objective reality of my financial bottom line says otherwise. However, you're welcome to continue to entertain that fantasy as long as it serves the purpose of excusing your own failure.

 

Greg

[merjet]

The master of self-delusion wrote:

 

Quote

I pay no taxes. My clients pay all of my taxes.

I'll believe that when I see zeros on lines 44 and 27 of your Form 1040. 

What is the tax situation when you are the client/customer? 

[Brant Gaede]

8 hours ago, moralist said:

The objective reality of my financial bottom line says otherwise. However, you're welcome to continue to entertain that fantasy as long as it serves the purpose of excusing your own failure.

Greg

Your successes are not another man's failure.

--Brant

except when you are shooting at each other

[Brant Gaede]

8 hours ago, moralist said:

In contrast to your situation, I did find my own solution. It's being a Capitalist producer. I create my own wealth and use it to buy my own freedom.

Greg

There I was pickin' cotton and I found this pot o' gold . . .

--Brant

ol times there r not fergotton

[Brant Gaede]

8 hours ago, moralist said:

I don't experience the effect you're describing. But I do believe what you're saying holds true for you. It just doesn't apply to me because I operate within a different economic system than you do.

There's a Capitalist principle of production you won't understand because you're not one. This principle is called:

PARITY

When people buy my goods and services, the cost of government is already built into the purchase price they pay me. Npw I also buy goods and services with the cost of government already built into the purchase price I pay. (Here's the part what you won't get.) There is parity between what I'm paid and what I pay. Since I'm a Capitalist my economic well being is built upon the foundation of capital, and not credit and debt like most people. I'm also a producer and always produce more than I consume, so I always have extra profits to invest in other financial ventures as the opportunities arise. Solvency is what makes me immune from the effects of the debt based economy. I've prospered through decades of cyclical debt bubble collapses.

As to the description of your complaint about taxes... There's not a God damned thing you can do about them. You're totally powerless. Complaining about them is an utterly meaningless waste of your time and energy, because you have absolutely no possible solution in your own life.

In contrast to your situation, I did find my own solution. It's being a Capitalist producer. I create my own wealth and use it to buy my own freedom.

Greg

Okay. You pay taxes just like your clients do--but they don't count. And since you make more than the taxman takes you're happy as a pig in slop.

--Brant

farmer: Mary Ann--it's time to hang some ham

government: milk cow or beef cow: ennie meanie minie moe, which cow today shall go?

pig: I'm free, I'm free, I'm free!

cow: moo, moo, moo! (I can keep my shit!)

[Brant Gaede]

15 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

You still pay taxes and hope you are able to recoup the expense from customers buying what you make or do.  There is no guarantee that you will succeed. Good for you if you do,  too bad if you don't.  You still have to make a check out to the government just like the rest of the peasants. 

I was an independent contractor  for 15 years.  I still considered taxes  as an expense that had to be recouped out of future earnings. 

This is the free from logic thread! (SAFE PLACE!)

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

22 hours ago, moralist said:

Don't you know anything about American Capitalism, Brant?

My clients voluntarily seek me out and freely choose to do business with me. In over 35 years, I've never spent one penny on advertising and have completely relied on my clients personal recommendations for my business success.

Read Francisco's Money Speech. It's ALL there right in front of your freaking face in black and white.

I live by those principles... because they work.

Greg

I'm making a point about your lack of logic. A lot of what you say about freedom is true. A lot is crap.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

9 hours ago, moralist said:

I pay no taxes. My clients pay all of my taxes. I already told you that you'll never understand this because you're not a Capitalist producer.

 

...and if pigs had wings, they'd fly!

But there IS a government, Bob... I live just fine in this world just as it is right now. You are welcome to live in your intellectual "if" fantasies.

 

Greg

Bullshit.  You remit taxes  and your check says pay to the order of <government>.   You hope future income will cover your taxes and expenses and still produce enough profit for you to live on, invest with and save.   Do you make out a check to the government.   Yes or No.  Which is it?

[PDS]

On 5/25/2016 at 9:50 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I have only skimmed through this thread, so if the following was mentioned, I missed it and sorry.

I recently finished reading The Confessions of Saint Augustine (John K. Ryan translation).

Augustine's argument about man's need for religion is far more sophisticated than I would have thought for a Catholic around 400 AD. He goes into the nature of time, of memory, senses, even of God as far as Augustine can understand Him--and it is not a trivial understanding. In fact, there is some Greek philosophy mixed in.

The need for religion argument goes something like the following. Man can make many things, but he cannot make himself. Thus God made man. God also made all natural things (including time) out of nothing--but a nothing that was obviously something to God. In other words, this part is beyond human understanding and can only be worshipped (or not). Man can control what he can do and perceive, but he can only worship (or not) what he cannot avoid and does not understand--including the force that made him.

I don't recall where Augustine objected to worshipping idols (his deal was against a pagan dualistic kind of Christianity called Manichaeism because he was a member for over a decade before converting), but I did read this objection over and over in The Old Testament. The reason I mention it is because it is based on a simplified form of Augustine's argument about God making man and nature. The argument is that God made man, then man made idols with the hands and materials God gave to man, then man worshipped those idols instead of God. Man thus worshipped things he made rather than worshipping the thing (God) that made him. This was the reason it was such a sin.

The need for religion to ancient Jews and Christians (as far as I can tell) mostly boils down to trying to understand how man can make things, but cannot make himself or make nature.

One of the coolest parts of Augustine's thinking was about God's rest on the seventh day in Genesis. (Note, Augustine considers a creation day as a time span different than an earthly day). Augustine claimed that God, after making everything, rested and is still at rest (and will continue), and that man reflects this pattern with human death--i.e., man makes a lot of things like God did, and also like God, man rests for eternity when his time comes around.

I can't say much about the metaphysics since this is beyond my experience, but this parallel in Christian storytelling is really cool.

 

Michael

MSK:

The thread's name is Why is There Religion, and you have brought up St. Augustine's Confessions.     

Kudos to you for having recently read this, and thank you for your thoughts on the book.    Very interesting comments.   

It has been a few years since I have read the Confessions, but you have inspired me to take another peak at it/them. 

[Jon Letendre]

9 hours ago, moralist said:

I don't experience the effect you're describing. But I do believe what you're saying holds true for you. It just doesn't apply to me because I operate within a different economic system than you do.

There's a Capitalist principle of production you won't understand because you're not one. This principle is called:

PARITY

When people buy my goods and services, the cost of government is already built into the purchase price they pay me. Npw I also buy goods and services with the cost of government already built into the purchase price I pay. (Here's the part what you won't get.) There is parity between what I'm paid and what I pay. Since I'm a Capitalist my economic well being is built upon the foundation of capital, and not credit and debt like most people. I'm also a producer and always produce more than I consume, so I always have extra profits to invest in other financial ventures as the opportunities arise. Solvency is what makes me immune from the effects of the debt based economy. I've prospered through decades of cyclical debt bubble collapses.

As to the description of your complaint about taxes... There's not a God damned thing you can do about them. You're totally powerless. Complaining about them is an utterly meaningless waste of your time and energy, because you have absolutely no possible solution in your own life.

In contrast to your situation, I did find my own solution. It's being a Capitalist producer. I create my own wealth and use it to buy my own freedom.

 

 

Greg

 

 

Which European liberal socialist insists that taxes reduce productivity and employment thus lowering the amounts of goods and services available for consumption?

[moralist]

39 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Which European liberal socialist insists that taxes reduce productivity and employment thus lowering the amounts of goods and services available for consumption?

I found my own solution for your impotent complaint about taxes... while you did not. Liberal socialists are helpless complaining victims. American Capitalists solve their own problems... so why can't you? 

Greg

[moralist]

27 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Bullshit.  You remit taxes  

No, I simply transfer the same taxes paid to me. That's parity. I told you you'll never understand this most simple basic elementary concept of business because you've never been a Capitalist producer. This simple concept is beyond your government educated intellect. But thanks anyway for demonstrating the consequences of your own choice to be imprinted by your government.

 

Greg

[Jon Letendre]

22 hours ago, moralist said:

As a Capitalist, I did productive work to earn the money to purchase the computer in a fair value for value exchange which was produced by other Capitalists.

 

Jeez... what the f**k is up with you people?

Aren't there any American Capitalists here?

Didn't anyone here actually f**king READ Atlas Shrugged?

Didn't anyone here actually LEARN anything from it?

Didn't anyone here actually USE what they learned in real life?

Why not?

This is like talking to a bunch of European liberal socialists!  

Greg

Which European liberal socialist insists that taxes reduce productivity and employment thus lowering the amounts of goods and services available for consumption?

[moralist]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

I'm making a point about your lack of logic. A lot of what you say about freedom is true. A lot is crap.

--Brant

(shrug...) I'm not an intellectual, Brant. I simply do what's morally right because it produces beneficial results.  Each of us chooses our path. I chose the American Capitalist path to economic freedom because its inherent code of ethics works.

 

Greg

[Jon Letendre]

So, you are full of shit and write a lot of worthless crap even you know is plain stupid, or is it that you are going to name some European liberal socialists who say that taxes reduce productivity and employment thus lowering the amounts of goods and services available for consumption?

[BaalChatzaf]

13 hours ago, moralist said:

I pay no taxes. My clients pay all of my taxes. I already told you that you'll never understand this because you're not a Capitalist producer.

 

...and if pigs had wings, they'd fly!

But there IS a government, Bob... I live just fine in this world just as it is right now. You are welcome to live in your intellectual "if" fantasies.

 

Greg

Nonsense.  The tax liability is yours and you remit to the government.  Just like everyone else.  By the way I was an independent software contractor for fifteen years and I produced software for money.  Like building a house and being paid for it.  I never fancied that my clients paid my taxes.  They paid their tax and I paid mine.  You maintain this solopsist illusion that you exist entirely by your efforts.  Not so.  You use roads you did not build.  You use vehicles you neither designed nor constructed.  You wear clothes you did not weave or spin and you eat food you did not grow.  

[PDS]

3 hours ago, moralist said:

No, I simply transfer the same taxes paid to me. That's parity. I told you you'll never understand this most simple basic elementary concept of business because you've never been a Capitalist producer. This simple concept is beyond your government educated intellect. But thanks anyway for demonstrating the consequences of your own choice to be imprinted by your government.

 

Greg

So, I charge $450 per hour as a good old fashioned capitalist.    Nobody puts a gun to anybody's head and presto, for some reason, people hire me.

It sure seems like I pay taxes on this money each year:  once every quarter, and once every April 15 to "true up" the gap between the quarterly payments I have made and the remaining amounts owed.   If I didn't do this, jail awaits.

How is this different than what you are describing?  

If all you are saying is that your pricing is higher so that you can capture your tax liabilities, isn't that like saying my $450 hourly rate implicitly captures my tax liabilities?  And isn't the same true for everybody else who either has a job, or is self-employed, including the guy working at McDonald's?  

In other words, the guy at McDonald's makes 7.5% less than he otherwise would because his employer is paying his FICA/FUTA and other taxes.    Everybody's compensation has an implied load attached, i.e., the tax load.   There is nothing special about being a plumber, electrician, or lawyer that makes this more or less true. 

[BaalChatzaf]

3 minutes ago, PDS said:

So, I charge $450 per hour as a good old fashioned capitalist.    Nobody puts a gun to anybody's head and presto, for some reason, people hire me.

It sure seems like I pay taxes on this money each year:  once every quarter, and once every April 15 to "true up" the gap between the quarterly payments I have made and the remaining amounts owed.   If I didn't do this, jail awaits.

How is this different than what you are describing?  

If all you are saying is that your pricing is higher so that you can capture your tax liabilities, isn't that like saying my $450 hourly rate implicitly captures my tax liabilities?  And isn't the same true for everybody else who either has a job, or is self-employed, including the guy working at McDonald's?  

In other words, the guy at McDonald's makes 7.5% less than he otherwise would because his employer is paying his FICA/FUTA and other taxes.    Everybody's compensation has an implied load attached, i.e., the tax load.   There is nothing special about being a plumber, electrician, or lawyer that makes this more or less true. 

You make out your check to the government and your customers make out their checks to you or your firm.  Pay attention to the observables....

[PDS]

34 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

You make out your check to the government and your customers make out their checks to you or your firm.  Pay attention to the observables....

Yes, Baal, I understand this.   I have 28 employees where I need to make payroll twice a month.   This is not a foreign concept to most people.   

The point is, whether they even know it or not, everybody does what Greg claims to have figured out-- no matter what the check says, unless they aren't paying taxes.  

[Brant Gaede]

4 hours ago, moralist said:

(shrug...) I'm not an intellectual, Brant. I simply do what's morally right because it produces beneficial results.  Each of us chooses our path. I chose the American Capitalist path to economic freedom because its inherent code of ethics works.

Greg

The more important to you the righter you are. As per your words.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

4 hours ago, moralist said:

No, I simply transfer the same taxes paid to me. That's parity. I told you you'll never understand this most simple basic elementary concept of business because you've never been a Capitalist producer. This simple concept is beyond your government educated intellect. But thanks anyway for demonstrating the consequences of your own choice to be imprinted by your government.

Greg

Nobody pays taxes?

--Brant

sounds like a good idea

[moralist]

6 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Your successes are not another man's failure.

--Brant

except when you are shooting at each other

You're right, Brant.

Bob's failure is his own to deal with and has absolutely nothing to do with my choice to walk a completely different path from his.

My successes come from helping other American Capitalists to be successful, because that's how American Capitalism works.

WIN/WIN

Again... you really should take another long hard look at Francisco's Money Speech. I didn't make this up. I got it from Ayn.

 

Greg