You Are Not Your Brain

[Frediano]

Michael:

Yes, I think there is evidence of volition in that visual experiment; we can actually experience ourselves 'choosing' what to value.

Even as we are wetbit bags of meat, we are more that that. We are more than our reptilian brain stems, and even, more than our mammalian overlayers. We may be implemented as wetbits, but there is strong evidence that our wetbits can -choose- what to value.

There is strong evidence even that we are able to understand -how- we can choose what to value.

This visual experiment is -not- evidence that we can't believe our own lying eyes, or are unable to correctly perceive the world as it is; the fact that -we- can understand what is occurring here is evidence of that which can understand-- our minds-- , and that is what makes us uniquely human.

We are not just autonomous neural nets responding to hardwired weightings; we can choose what we value, we can choose what we we weight.

regards,

Fred

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Fred,

We're definitively on the same page.

I'm not sure you would go the next step with me, though. Maybe you would, but it's OK if you don't.

I believe there are things in reality we don't perceive well yet. I also think that human evolution has not stopped and it's an irrational conceit to believe it has.

So I believe it is entirely plausible that we humans are smack dab in the middle of evolving new "sense organs" (for lack of a better term) for perceiving more of what exists than our ancestors could. This means more than the five senses and it is in the brain and mind.

What would that be?

I can't say for sure, but this speculation would explain why so many people in such widely different cultures and times have similar experiences with things like telepathy, near death experiences, etc., but why it is so difficult to repeat them under controlled conditions. (Similarity of illusions for the similarity of accounts is a traditional explanation, one that is palatable to folks who believe current humans are the whole shebang, and it might be true. Or true for some things and not for others. Or untrue... Ditto for charlatanism...)

In the lack of not knowing some things and being unable to know them with certainty, I like the speculations that fit the broadest overall patterns. And the best I can think of is human evolution has not stopped and when something new is developing in a species, it is not instantly perfect. The timescale for evolution is long, much, much longer than one generation, and I expect there are lots of glitches in individual members along the way.

On similar accounts of experiences, I do admit it is possible to involve a lot of people in mass stupidity, but I refuse to admit this is the only alternative to reason at the current stage of human evolution.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

I wondered what that cyst on my ass was all about.

--Brant

evolving as we speak

[Frediano]

Fred,

We're definitively on the same page.

I'm not sure you would go the next step with me, though. Maybe you would, but it's OK if you don't.

I believe there are things in reality we don't perceive well yet. I also think that human evolution has not stopped and it's an irrational conceit to believe it has.

So I believe it is entirely plausible that we humans are smack dab in the middle of evolving new "sense organs" (for lack of a better term) for perceiving more of what exists than our ancestors could. This means more than the five senses and it is in the brain and mind.

What would that be?

I can't say for sure, but this speculation would explain why so many people in such widely different cultures and times have similar experiences with things like telepathy, near death experiences, etc., but why it is so difficult to repeat them under controlled conditions. (Similarity of illusions for the similarity of accounts is a traditional explanation, one that is palatable to folks who believe current humans are the whole shebang, and it might be true. Or true for some things and not for others. Or untrue... Ditto for charlatanism...)

In the lack of not knowing some things and being unable to know them with certainty, I like the speculations that fit the broadest overall patterns. And the best I can think of is human evolution has not stopped and when something new is developing in a species, it is not instantly perfect. The timescale for evolution is long, much, much longer than one generation, and I expect there are lots of glitches in individual members along the way.

On similar accounts of experiences, I do admit it is possible to involve a lot of people in mass stupidity, but I refuse to admit this is the only alternative to reason at the current stage of human evolution.

Michael

There is evidence(a hint) for what you suggest as follows.

I'm a big fan of looking for the inevitable gradients all around us. Everywhere. Physics, economies, love, human activity. (Death being the only concept without interesting gradient-- in fact, Death being the state of lack of all interesting gradient.)

Gradient is necessary even for an understanding of 'identity' -- and here is where the hint, the evidence is, in what you suggest.

Consider the identity 'you' in space and time, in the visible spectrum. There is a well defined abrupt rate of change of the entity 'you' in time that begins at your birth/conception, whichever you prefer. (there is a less well defined prehistory of the sperm and egg cells you came from which is arguably not 'you' but lets leave that issue aside for now.) As well, during the time 'you' exist, there is also a well defined and abrupt rate of change of 'you' with respect to space that begins at your skin, when viewed with the bias of the visible spectrum; what our unaided eyes plainly 'see.' This concept of personal identity is influenced by an abrupt gradient in the visible spectrum of 'you' and 'me.'

Now, and this is not such a leap at all, conside 'you' in the IR spectrum. We don't have IR eyes, but with augmentation, we can 'see' in the IR spectrum. When we look at 'us' in the IR spectrum, suddenly 'we' are reflecting off of nearby surfaces and also the atmosphere around us. There is not quite the same abrupt rate of change of 'us' w.r.t. space in the IR spectrum as there appears to clearly be in the visible spectrum. We can and do communicate with other, when we are close enough, in the IR spectrum; we 'feel' another's presence without physically touching them.

This isn't magic; it is just physics, the universe as it is with us in it.

Mankind was not always aware of the IR spectrum (or any spectrum of light other than that which we could plainly see with our visible light filtering sensory system.)

We know there are other parts of the EM spectrum.

And while we are at it, -look- at the structure of our visible light processing system-- the optic centers of the brain, the optic nerves, the eyes. When looked at from above, the entire stricture appears to be 'reaching out' to the world from the brain.

So, yes-- there is clear evidence that what you hypothesize not only could happen, but already long ago did happen in our evolution.

I agree- I think life in the Universe -meanders- to new possibilities. We are limited only by one thing: what can be in the Universe, as it is. Our example of local meandering life is not limited to what can be with its -imaginings-. Our -imaginings- are not limited by what already is; our imaginings are not limited by much at all, certainly not physical reality. But the subset of what we can bring about from those imaginings -is- limited by what can be. That process of imagining is one means of meandering to a new, perfectly permissible reality.

We sometimes navigate to a new reality by design. We sometimes meander there. Looking at the unverse as it, meander was at work long before navigate arrived. They are both here now, locally at least.

regards,

Fred

[Jules Troy]

I am incapable of spin.

Are you Mongoloid? Obviously you aren't, so tell us how you make moral choices in the face of your claimed incapacity..

--Brant

(Bob quoted what I edited out not knowing he was quoting me.)

[Jules Troy]

Bet you didn't see this one coming Brant!

Thwap!

[BaalChatzaf]

I can't say for sure, but this speculation would explain why so many people in such widely different cultures and times have similar experiences with things like telepathy,

What telepathy? Rhine's work showing "telepathy" has been busted for over 60 years. The brain does produce enough energy to transmit signals in the ER spectra so how would a "mental message" get from Joe to Sally or Alice to Bob? There is not an iota of objective reproducible evidence to support the existence of telepathy.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I can't say for sure, but this speculation would explain why so many people in such widely different cultures and times have similar experiences with things like telepathy,

What telepathy? Rhine's work showing "telepathy" has been busted for over 60 years. The brain does produce enough energy to transmit signals in the ER spectra so how would a "mental message" get from Joe to Sally or Alice to Bob? There is not an iota of objective reproducible evidence to support the existence of telepathy.

Come on, Bob.

At least quote me correctly.

Try this (my bold):

I can't say for sure, but this speculation would explain why so many people in such widely different cultures and times have similar experiences with things like telepathy, near death experiences, etc., but why it is so difficult to repeat them under controlled conditions.

Then you complain:

There is not an iota of objective reproducible evidence to support the existence of telepathy.

Howzat?

Now your comment doesn't make any sense, does it?

I said something and you said the same goddam thing as a refutation.

I thought you used to teach logic.

But you left out what I originally said.

Why would someone do that, I wonder?

I'll let the reader decide for himself.

Also, ever hear of the word "speculation"?

Oh...

I think I used that one, too.

Dayaamm!

Sometimes people don't talk. They just make noises at each other. Grunting from caveman days dressed up as words. Subhuman is a good term for that form of communication. Try words with cognitive substance. They work pretty good on a philosophy forum. Just a suggestion.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Michael has his panties in a bunch because Bob used him for a soapbox.

--Brant

get rid of the panties (I did)--they were too tight in the wrong place (now I just keep them under my pillow)

when Bob "argues" he just repeats himself--he's got that in common with Greg--so prepare for the repeat (the panties will still work for another week)

[moralist]

when Bob "argues" he just repeats himself--he's got that in common with Greg--so prepare for the repeat (the panties will still work for another week)

I have panty reuse down to an artform... and can get four wearings by turning them front to back and inside out.

Greg

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

They were my pink ones, too, with the little pony and donuts on them.

Michael

[moralist]

Bet you didn't see this one coming Brant!

Thwap!

Devo was a live and local phenomenon where I live.

Greg

[moralist]

Relating to the original topic...

Lately there has been some interesting evidence that we are not our brains. I heard one story last night in a radio interview of a woman who had a large aneuryism in her neck and went in for emergency surgery using a process where they put her body on full life support and flatlined her, no heart beat, no EKG (no electrical brain activity). All the blood had been drained from her body and her eyelids were taped shut. After her recovery, she wrote a 20,000 word highly detailed account of the operation from the point of view above looking downward where her body was lying.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

--Brant

put her under again in the same way for the same time but don't cut--but that'd be illegal and unethical (so do it in China where they harvest criminals' body parts for transplants)

I know I'm not my brain because my brain was removed and tossed in the dumpster decades ago, and here I am posting!

[moralist]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole story. I just heard the radio interview. She did accurately recount what was said during the operation and complained about the surgeons' flippant comments, and that they even had the song "Hotel California" playing during the operation. ("you can check out, but you can never leave") She also accurately described the highly specialized instruments they used. She wondered why they cut her leg open when they were supposed to be operating on her neck. (They had installed a tube in her leg to drain out the blood.)

Realized those visual and auditory perceptions occurred in a chilled body that had no blood in it, with no heart beat and zero electrical brainwave activity, and eyes taped shut so they wouldn't dry out during the operation. For the "you are only your brain people", your awareness is only electrical brain activity. So how can consciousness obviously continue to accurately perceive the physical activity of the external world when there is no brain activity? How can person see what's going on with taped eyes? And how can they have the point of view from a vantage point totally outside their body... from above looking down?

And sure, it's just an anecdote. But by no means is this the only event of its kind. There are literally thousands of other similar experiences...

...but I'm sure you can explain them all away.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole story. I just heard the radio interview. She did accurately recount what was said during the operation and complained about the surgeons' flippant comments, and that they even had the song "Hotel California" playing during the operation. ("you can check out, but you can never leave") She also accurately described the highly specialized instruments they used. She wondered why they cut her leg open when they were supposed to be operating on her neck. (They had installed a tube in her leg to drain out the blood.)

Realized those visual and auditory perceptions occurred in a chilled body that had no blood in it, with no heart beat and zero electrical brainwave activity, and eyes taped shut so they wouldn't dry out during the operation. For the "you are only your brain people", your awareness is only electrical brain activity. So how can consciousness obviously continue to accurately perceive the physical activity of the external world when there is no brain activity? How can person see what's going on with taped eyes? And how can they have the point of view from a vantage point totally outside their body... from above looking down?

And sure, it's just an anecdote. But by no means is this the only event of its kind. There are literally thousands of other similar experiences...

...but I'm sure you can explain them all away.

Greg

I'd imagine, out of my medical experience, that installing a tube in her leg would happen before they completely shut her down. They may not have put her down enough. A radio interview you only heard part of weakens the anecdote.

What's with this I gotta believe because I want to believe orientation of yours anyway? You-are-your-brain/you-aren't-your-brain and only you care while I'm happy to just go with being conscious. There's a reason your brain is in your skull and not up your ass.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Relating to the original topic...

Lately there has been some interesting evidence that we are not our brains. I heard one story last night in a radio interview of a woman who had a large aneuryism in her neck and went in for emergency surgery using a process where they put her body on full life support and flatlined her, no heart beat, no EKG (no electrical brain activity). All the blood had been drained from her body and her eyelids were taped shut. After her recovery, she wrote a 20,000 word highly detailed account of the operation from the point of view above looking downward where her body was lying.

Greg

Clearly there is more to each and every one of us, beyond our brains. However each and every one of us is -physical- down to the sub-atomic level.

No spooks, ghosts, or spirits inhabit us.

[william.scherk]

I heard one story last night in a radio interview of a woman who had a large aneuryism in her neck and went in for emergency surgery using a process where they put her body on full life support and flatlined her, no heart beat, no EKG (no electrical brain activity). All the blood had been drained from her body and her eyelids were taped shut. After her recovery, she wrote a 20,000 word highly detailed account of the operation from the point of view above looking downward where her body was lying.

This sounds like a good story. Can you remember anything about her (a name, a year, a place, title of her account -- or the name of the show you listened to) so the rest of us can examine the story?

[Brant Gaede]

No spooks, ghosts, or spirits inhabit us.

Speak for yourself!

--Brant

I claim two out of three--at least!

[Frediano]

We communicate in the visible light spectrum. How? Because at sometime in the distant past, our ancestors evolved these funny looking orbs that reach out from our brains, collect light with rods and cones, and convert stimulation in the visible spectrum that stimulates our optical nerves; our visual processing subsystem pre-processes all that and delivers it to 'something' which figures out what the Hell to do with the stimulation. That same 'something', when our eyes are closed, and or we are sleeping, is also capable of playing back past 'recordings' of actual stimulation, and as well, totally making up stimulation that never happened. We can imagine, we can dream.

We communicate in the sound spectrum, using different sensors apparatus and subsystems that reach out to our ears.

We communicate in the IR spectrum; we sense others and feel them. In some reptiles, this is more advanced.

We communicate in the odor spectrum, unfortunately or fortunately at times.

We sense via taste; we sense acceleration and forces acting on us..

But that's it? Life has stopped evolving? We've discovered all the ways of communicating/sensing the world as it is and those around us?

I seriously doubt that. That is an incredibly parochial view of life. I'd put that one right up there with 'we are alone in the universe,' in the following sense: I may not have been around several hundred million years ago, but intellectually, I accept that something was. Ditto a hundred million years from now; I find it entirely reasonable to accept that life might exist then as well. Ditto life far away not just in time, but in space.

On the way from then to now, we changed. On the way from now to the future, we/life will probably also change. I think, only limited by what can be and what actually happens. On the way there, will 'we' all evolve at a knife edge even pace, or even, in the same direction? In one sense, yes, but in another, no. Random deletions/mutations are one way we 'meander' to unique identities (different from syndromatic deletions, which happen often enough and deterministically enough that those features are shared by a group of otherwise individuals(who are still individuals.)

Along the way, we will experience things we can't explain. We can hypothesize, but that doesn't mean we've explained them. An example is, 'reading someone's mind' without blatant communication. Sometimes we guess. Sometimes we infer from context. Or, sometimes we assume that, to explain something we can't otherwise explain, because it is poorly repeatable, or not repeatable at all. There may be a common near death experience that is entirely based on physiologic similarities. "My whole life flashed before me. I saw people who had passed before me. My memories rushed forth. And so on." Well, who can really explain their dreams?

When I was 14, I -swore- I and three of my friends had seen a ghost one night along a river where we lived. An eerily luminescent, glowing thing close to the ground, seen by all four of us. We believed it ...until the next morning, and we all found a rotted log at that same spot, slimy, which was eerily luminous the night before with bioluminance. But for 12 hours, we were absolutely convinced. We'd seen the inexplicable with our own eyes...until it was explained. I suspect that things like 'rotted logs at night' are quite common in the world.

When I first met my wife 32 yrs ago, I guessed her exact birthday. To this day, she thinks I looked in her purse. I didn't. Did I get lucky? Because many times ever since, out of the blue, she or I will bring up some odd topic or memory, and the other of us look dumbfounded because we were thinking of or were just about to say the same thing. Is that all pure context and familiarity? Maybe. I don't know. But it wasn't that first night I met her. The month and day literally just popped into my head. Not astronomical odds by any means for a simple birthday: 1:365. Not a strong inference, well within the bounds of shit luck. A Lucky guess can happen. Lots of folks who have been with each other long enough report things like that. Does it mean anything? Probably not. Who knows? But as arrogant as I am, I am not arrogant enough to say 'definitely not' when the honest answer is "i Don't know."

However, to date, the repeat-ability of such claims has been very shaky and suspect.

[william.scherk]

While we wait the thirty or a hundred million years for incipient telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, mediumship, remote viewing, astral travelling and other extensions of the human sensorium to kick in, we have our present accomplishments to fill in a bit. We have extended our abilities beyond the body in significant ways,

We came to language and culture, arts and sciences, cities and networks, x-rays, television, radio, telecommunications, the internet. We have the human tools of inquiry that have let us sense the entire spectrum of the IR band, and moreover, the 'sounds' of the cosmic background radiation, the entire electromagnetic spectrum, microscopic changes in blood flow in the brain. We can 'feel' the heat of distant stars and galaxies and 'sense' the contours of objects at the atomic scale. Adjunct to human senses abound in many fields of inquiry. We can 'see' magnetic fields and cosmic rays. We can 'feel the effects of gravity in dark matter. We can hear the voices of the long-dead.

We humans have in our cultural and technological powers entered the realms of 'seeing' and predicting that were once only given by seers and prophets and witches and gods, I think.

It's this acceleration of human 'senses' by extra-human auxiliaries that makes me think it will be unlikely that humans will evolve seeming supernatural abilities via 'new' senses. We have our technological adjuncts -- why would we need evolve them in our own bodies when we can 'plug in'?

[moralist]

I heard one story last night in a radio interview of a woman who had a large aneuryism in her neck and went in for emergency surgery using a process where they put her body on full life support and flatlined her, no heart beat, no EKG (no electrical brain activity). All the blood had been drained from her body and her eyelids were taped shut. After her recovery, she wrote a 20,000 word highly detailed account of the operation from the point of view above looking downward where her body was lying.

This sounds like a good story. Can you remember anything about her (a name, a year, a place, title of her account -- or the name of the show you listened to) so the rest of us can examine the story?

Sure, William.

The author I heard on the radio is Judy Bachrach and her book is "Glimpsing Heaven". She began as a hospice worker and later became an investigative journalist. She was a "dead is dead" skeptic whose view changed as she gathered first person interviews for the book.

I also read this book written by a Doctor. It's a freaking stunner. There are a lot of books in this genre because there is a mountain of evidence. And many of the books are written by highly regarded medical professionals.

In Consciousness Beyond Life, the internationally renowned cardiologist Dr. Pim van Lommel offers ground-breaking research into whether or not our consciousness survives the death of our body.

Like everything else, everyone is free to make up their own mind. One day I'll tell you about my Brother who died just a couple of months ago... but right now I'm still trying to wrap my head around what happened.

Greg

[moralist]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole story. I just heard the radio interview. She did accurately recount what was said during the operation and complained about the surgeons' flippant comments, and that they even had the song "Hotel California" playing during the operation. ("you can check out, but you can never leave") She also accurately described the highly specialized instruments they used. She wondered why they cut her leg open when they were supposed to be operating on her neck. (They had installed a tube in her leg to drain out the blood.)

Realized those visual and auditory perceptions occurred in a chilled body that had no blood in it, with no heart beat and zero electrical brainwave activity, and eyes taped shut so they wouldn't dry out during the operation. For the "you are only your brain people", your awareness is only electrical brain activity. So how can consciousness obviously continue to accurately perceive the physical activity of the external world when there is no brain activity? How can person see what's going on with taped eyes? And how can they have the point of view from a vantage point totally outside their body... from above looking down?

And sure, it's just an anecdote. But by no means is this the only event of its kind. There are literally thousands of other similar experiences...

...but I'm sure you can explain them all away.

Greg

I'd imagine, out of my medical experience, that installing a tube in her leg would happen before they completely shut her down.

So they cut her leg open while she was conscious? Interesting theory. Keep going. I'm sure you can account for everything.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole story. I just heard the radio interview. She did accurately recount what was said during the operation and complained about the surgeons' flippant comments, and that they even had the song "Hotel California" playing during the operation. ("you can check out, but you can never leave") She also accurately described the highly specialized instruments they used. She wondered why they cut her leg open when they were supposed to be operating on her neck. (They had installed a tube in her leg to drain out the blood.)

Realized those visual and auditory perceptions occurred in a chilled body that had no blood in it, with no heart beat and zero electrical brainwave activity, and eyes taped shut so they wouldn't dry out during the operation. For the "you are only your brain people", your awareness is only electrical brain activity. So how can consciousness obviously continue to accurately perceive the physical activity of the external world when there is no brain activity? How can person see what's going on with taped eyes? And how can they have the point of view from a vantage point totally outside their body... from above looking down?

And sure, it's just an anecdote. But by no means is this the only event of its kind. There are literally thousands of other similar experiences...

...but I'm sure you can explain them all away.

Greg

I'd imagine, out of my medical experience, that installing a tube in her leg would happen before they completely shut her down.

So they cut her leg open while she was conscious? Interesting theory. Keep going. I'm sure you can account for everything.

Greg

There are various stages or depths of anesthesia. It's possible they didn't take her down quite enough before they took her completely down.

I'm only accounting for your not accounting.

--Brant

[moralist]

That's called an anecdote. Did she relate the numbers painted on top of the operating lights sometimes put there for collaboration? Did any operating room personnel back up any of her story? Could the whole thing be bullshit?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole story. I just heard the radio interview. She did accurately recount what was said during the operation and complained about the surgeons' flippant comments, and that they even had the song "Hotel California" playing during the operation. ("you can check out, but you can never leave") She also accurately described the highly specialized instruments they used. She wondered why they cut her leg open when they were supposed to be operating on her neck. (They had installed a tube in her leg to drain out the blood.)

Realized those visual and auditory perceptions occurred in a chilled body that had no blood in it, with no heart beat and zero electrical brainwave activity, and eyes taped shut so they wouldn't dry out during the operation. For the "you are only your brain people", your awareness is only electrical brain activity. So how can consciousness obviously continue to accurately perceive the physical activity of the external world when there is no brain activity? How can person see what's going on with taped eyes? And how can they have the point of view from a vantage point totally outside their body... from above looking down?

And sure, it's just an anecdote. But by no means is this the only event of its kind. There are literally thousands of other similar experiences...

...but I'm sure you can explain them all away.

Greg

I'd imagine, out of my medical experience, that installing a tube in her leg would happen before they completely shut her down.

So they cut her leg open while she was conscious? Interesting theory. Keep going. I'm sure you can account for everything.

Greg

There are various stages or depths of anesthesia. It's possible they didn't take her down quite enough before they took her completely down.

I'm only accounting for your not accounting.

--Brant

Ok. Brant... you are only your brain and nothing more.

Greg