Fantastic Discussion about Islam and other Religions

[Brant Gaede]

They're Islamic, all right. There's plenty of fascism in Islam for those who want it. Those who want it and use it. If against fellow Muslims, that's their problem. They can ask for help. Against "Infidels" the Infidels get to shoot them. This is self defense. Those who are not fascist get left alone.

--Brant

bloodthirsty SOB

Not disagreeing with you, but that really is only half the battle.

You relentlessly tell everyone what you are doing and why when you fight this expression of fascism. (If you, a young male Muslim, have no fascist state to repair to and fight for you are militarily unemployed and unemployable and lack a true jihad inner compulsion.) If that fascist state is attacked for its fascist expression of exportable and exported terrorism, you don't wage war against it because it's a Muslim state, but because it's a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

--Brant

and you add what to this?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Brant Gaede

[Richard Wiig]

You relentlessly tell everyone what you are doing and why when you fight this expression of fascism. (If you, a young male Muslim, have no fascist state to repair to and fight for you are militarily unemployed and unemployable and lack a true jihad inner compulsion.) If that fascist state is attacked for its fascist expression of exportable and exported terrorism you don't wage war against it because it's a Muslim state, but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

--Brant

and you add what to this?

But it is not seen as fascism by those who are attracted to it. It is seen as morally correct, and that doesn't emanate from what you've termed the fascist state. It emanates from Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. It is an Islamic state, and we are in a position where we must attack it, if we wish to defend ourselves, precisely because it is choosing Islam.

That is an inescapable fact.

but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

[Brant Gaede]

You relentlessly tell everyone what you are doing and why when you fight this expression of fascism. (If you, a young male Muslim, have no fascist state to repair to and fight for you are militarily unemployed and unemployable and lack a true jihad inner compulsion.) If that fascist state is attacked for its fascist expression of exportable and exported terrorism you don't wage war against it because it's a Muslim state, but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

--Brant

and you add what to this?

But it is not seen as fascism by those who are attracted to it. It is seen as morally correct, and that doesn't emanate from what you've termed the fascist state. It emanates from Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. It is an Islamic state, and we are in a position where we must attack it, if we wish to defend ourselves, precisely because it is choosing Islam.

That is an inescapable fact.

but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

Yeah, but we aren't going to war with Indonesia even though there are more Muslims there than any other country on Earth.

--Brant

the only Muslim terrorist out of Indonesia to the United States I'm aware of the the current POTUS

[Selene]

Our leaders are lying to us. Whether or not they are lying to themselves too, I do not know, but I know that you cannot tackle the problem by lying about it.

Let's stay on point here.

The unity of religion and law is a serious problem in Islam.

There we, and Muslim friends of mine agree.

How much contact have you directly had with Muslim families?

That is a completely "non-trap question."

A...

What is the relevance of that? The most I have had to do with muslims is in Indonesia, where I met many wonderfully friendly muslims, and befriended one in particular, who a mate and I befriended after she was robbed on the bus we were travelling on. I know there are many decent muslims. This is not the issue is it?

You try too hard.

All you needed to tell me was the Indonesia part.

Interesting.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I know there are many decent muslims. This is not the issue is it?

Where have I heard that before?

Why, some of my best friends are Negroes...

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

Our leaders are lying to us. Whether or not they are lying to themselves too, I do not know, but I know that you cannot tackle the problem by lying about it.

Let's stay on point here.

The unity of religion and law is a serious problem in Islam.

There we, and Muslim friends of mine agree.

How much contact have you directly had with Muslim families?

That is a completely "non-trap question."

A...

What is the relevance of that? The most I have had to do with muslims is in Indonesia, where I met many wonderfully friendly muslims, and befriended one in particular, who a mate and I befriended after she was robbed on the bus we were travelling on. I know there are many decent muslims. This is not the issue is it?

You try too hard.

All you needed to tell me was the Indonesia part.

Interesting.

A...

I wasn't trying anything, Adam. I'm wondering what point you are making, if any. I wish you'd just be straight up rather than always oblique and obscure. You haven't answered my question about the relevance of any relationships I've had with muslims.

[Richard Wiig]

You relentlessly tell everyone what you are doing and why when you fight this expression of fascism. (If you, a young male Muslim, have no fascist state to repair to and fight for you are militarily unemployed and unemployable and lack a true jihad inner compulsion.) If that fascist state is attacked for its fascist expression of exportable and exported terrorism you don't wage war against it because it's a Muslim state, but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

--Brant

and you add what to this?

But it is not seen as fascism by those who are attracted to it. It is seen as morally correct, and that doesn't emanate from what you've termed the fascist state. It emanates from Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. It is an Islamic state, and we are in a position where we must attack it, if we wish to defend ourselves, precisely because it is choosing Islam.

That is an inescapable fact.

but because it is a supporter-of-terrorism state using some diagram sketched out over a thousand years ago by a desert bandit.

Yeah, but we aren't going to war with Indonesia even though there are more Muslims there than any other country on Earth.

--Brant

the only Muslim terrorist out of Indonesia to the United States I'm aware of the the current POTUS

Of course we are not going to war with Indonesia. We are not going to war with Iraq either, but there we are in Iraq fighting. As for terrorists out of Indonesia, there are plenty of them, and the Bali bombers didn't discriminate between Australians and Americans.

[Brant Gaede]

Forgot about those bastards.

--Brant

[Selene]

I wasn't trying anything, Adam. I'm wondering what point you are making, if any. I wish you'd just be straight up rather than always oblique and obscure. You haven't answered my question about the relevance of any relationships I've had with muslims.

Again let's stay on point.

I am trying to formulate your position on Islam into a debate proposition.

In order to do that, we would have to decide what the status quo is.

Resolved that Islam is a religion of peace would not reflect the status quo in your mind, correct?

Resolved that Islam is a religion of _________.

Essentially, I am trying to formulate a different manner to "argue," debate, or, discuss Islam with you.

It is pretty simple.

A proposition is the claim, proposal, conclusion, or resolution that is being debated, e.g. Resolved: the exploration of space is essential to a strong defense. Propositions, otherwise known as resolutions, are the topics that will be debated.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You haven't answered my question about the relevance of any relationships I've had with muslims.

But I did.

This guy flouting friendships with Muslims has the same meaning as Southern racists saying some of their best friends are black.

It's a statement aimed at trying to pretend the bigot is reasonable and the bigotry is not bigotry.

If you swallow it as reasonable and wait, the bigot always goes back to preaching bigotry openly. Just like this guy has done over and over.

So it's a manipulation tactic for short-term advantage and nothing more.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

Islam is a religion of peace certainly doesn't reflect the status quo in the Western sense. Peace needs to be examined on Islamic terms, not on what you and I both take it to mean. Peace is when Dar al-Harb has come under Dar al-Islam. Peace will reign when Islam reigns. In that sense, it is certainly a religion of peace.

Islam is also a religion of submission.

[Richard Wiig]

You haven't answered my question about the relevance of any relationships I've had with muslims.

But I did.

This guy flouting friendships with Muslims has the same meaning as Southern racists saying some of their best friends are black.

It's a statement aimed at trying to pretend the bigot is reasonable and the bigotry is not bigotry.

If you swallow it as reasonable and wait, the bigot always goes back to preaching bigotry openly. Just like this guy has done over and over.

So it's a manipulation tactic for short-term advantage and nothing more.

Michael

I wasn't asking you, I was asking Adam. I was expecting an agenda from him. As for my raising my friendship with muslims being just more evidence of my bigotry to you, it reminds of what used to happen to people accused of witchcraft. If you deny that you are a witch, it's clear evidence that you are a witch.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

As for my raising my friendship with muslims being just more evidence of my bigotry to you, it reminds of what used to happen to people accused of witchcraft. If you deny that you are a witch, it's clear evidence that you are a witch.

You mean like the way you judge Muslims and preach about it?

Not pleasant when you are judged that way, is it?

But you do it to them and that's OK by you.

Heh.

The thing is, I believe it about you. I've been around your kind a lot.

So this corner of the Internet is not going to be friendly to you spreading your bigotry. I am going to keep exposing you so long as you persist. (That is until I get tired.) If you don't like it, there is an entire Internet out there to preach your bigotry and even bitch about me if you like.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Some of my best friends are bigots.

--Brant

(not really)

[BaalChatzaf]

Islam is a religion of peace certainly doesn't reflect the status quo in the Western sense. Peace needs to be examined on Islamic terms, not on what you and I both take it to mean. Peace is when Dar al-Harb has come under Dar al-Islam. Peace will reign when Islam reigns. In that sense, it is certainly a religion of peace.

Islam is also a religion of submission.

Islam is -essentially- a religion of submission.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Richard Wiig]

I hope you're not calling ALL Muslims submissive. It'd be terrible to think that there's more than one bigot in this thread.

[Brant Gaede]

Everyone is submissive--to something or things or conglomeration of things.

--Brant

reality to be commanded must be obeyed

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

It'd be terrible to think that there's more than one bigot in this thread.

Here's something I can agree with.

[BaalChatzaf]

I hope you're not calling ALL Muslims submissive. It'd be terrible to think that there's more than one bigot in this thread.

It is the doctrine and dogma that requires submission. Individuals have the power to deviate from dogma as much as the please or dare.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Is there a religion that is not based on submission?

[jts]

If Islam is a religion of peace, then why did Peikoff want to attack Iran?

Why is attacking Iran is an okay thing to do (because of Islam) but saying bad things about Islam is bigotry?

Why is it okay to criticize Objectivism and Ayn Rand but not okay to criticize Islam and Muhammad?

If saying bad things about Islam is bigotry, then the Koran has to be one of the most bigotted books ever written. Perhaps Muslims should burn it.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jerry,

Saying bad things about Islam is not bigotry.

I and others here on OL have criticized Islam harshly without bigotry. Plenty of people do that.

Talking and acting like a bigot is bigotry.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

I hope you're not calling ALL Muslims submissive. It'd be terrible to think that there's more than one bigot in this thread.

It is the doctrine and dogma that requires submission. Individuals have the power to deviate from dogma as much as the please or dare.

Ba'al Chatzaf

That is pretty much stating the obvious. Islam does require submission though. Islam means submission.

[Richard Wiig]

If Islam is a religion of peace, then why did Peikoff want to attack Iran?

Why is attacking Iran is an okay thing to do (because of Islam) but saying bad things about Islam is bigotry?

Why is it okay to criticize Objectivism and Ayn Rand but not okay to criticize Islam and Muhammad?

If saying bad things about Islam is bigotry, then the Koran has to be one of the most bigotted books ever written. Perhaps Muslims should burn it.

It's not that I say bad things about Islam, it's the way I say it that Michael doesn't like. I am no bigot, but I say things in a manner that he doesn't like, so in his eyes that makes me a bigot. No matter that I don't collectively judge all muslims as sharia supporters, or as jihadists, or as haters of non-muslims, etc.

[Richard Wiig]

Is there a religion that is not based on submission?

I don't think that's relevant if the focus is Islam, unless it's to highlight any differences. Islam brings submission to the fore in a way that I don't think other religions do. It's very name means submission to Allah.

It is also a religion of the sword and incompatible with freedom.