Is evil rational?

[anthony]

Tony's de-contextualized entity makes no sense to me. How can a human predator as I have described be 'selfless' ... when it seems psychologically more logical that a Bundy/Gacy has only tenuous emotional connections with other humans, whose entire ethos is devoted to slaking his thirsts, his hungers, his bloodlust, his deranged 'compulsion' to hurt and destroy other people.

Now it may be that as Tony lays it out -- by definition a predator (imprudent or not) cannot be rational. And that by definition an irrational person. And that an irrational person is by definition 'selfless.'

But I don't see the logical underpinnings for such a generalization; moreover, if the generalization is true, then Bundy/Gacy were 'selfless.' If this is so, I have no understanding of what that selflessness could mean.

[Tony says] the person "who easily discards or abuses others' rights/liberties - has in fact become obedient and answerable to everybody's authority and has lost his own." If that is true, why hasn't the burglar who stole my television, audio system and CD/DVD collection returned them? Where is the evidence that he bowed to his victim's authority? Where is the evidence of his obedience to me?

Yeah, it is not at all clear what real-world predator becomes 'obedient.' Harming or destroying other people makes him obedient to anti-social impulse or hateful motives in his own soul, I would say. In the case of a gang member whose very standing requires him to obey tribal/gang "law," maiming and killing when ordered, one could make a case that he is obeying an authority and not his own will -- but this would make him no more 'selfless' than anyone with a criminal code of honour, or anyone who must obey a chain of command to kill unlawfully. Being an outlaw, one could argue, might mean being outside normal 'straight' law -- and the community standards that enforce it and other behavioural norms -- but is an outlaw in a gang 'selfless' in the simple sense of the word?

"Obedient", subordinate, dependent - pick one or all of them - indicate loss of independence of mind.

Through, by, or for, others (in a general context).

To exist through their efforts and property, by their authority and approval, or for their forced or unforced service - all boils down to surrender of self, selflessness.

Deliberate evasion, of one's own unmistakable, unavoidable identity (its attributes, vulnerability and fallibilty) equally the nature of other persons, is the crux of all evils perpetrated.

[Brant Gaede]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

[Francisco Ferrer]

"Obedient", subordinate, dependent - pick one or all of them - indicate loss of independence of mind.

Through, by, or for, others (in a general context).

To exist through their efforts and property, by their authority and approval, or for their forced or unforced service - all boils down to surrender of self, selflessness.

Deliberate evasion, of one's own unmistakable, unavoidable identity (its attributes, vulnerability and fallibilty) equally the nature of other persons, is the crux of all evils perpetrated.

Yes, of course, there are predators who are incapable of thinking for themselves. They rely on a mob boss, crime lord, Don or kingpin to do the mental heavy lifting. ("I swear on my mudder's grave, boss, I di-int do it!")

However, the predator I have in mind is his own boss. Like a salesman who scouts a territory before beginning his campaign, the prudent predator is careful, forward-thinking, and trusts himself above all others.

And, while I am sure that there are many predators who depend on their victim's approval ("How did I do in the hold-up yesterday? Did you like the way I eased the gun barrel out of my sleeve?"), the predator I had in mind doesn't value the opinion of his victim. After the job is done, he stops thinking about his victim altogether. And rather than thinking of his career as evil, he regards it as good. Successfully taking from others enhances his standard of living and reinforces his self-esteem.

No doubt there are many predators who evade their own identity. ("I'm not a thief. I'm a security expert.") But the predator I have in mind knows exactly who he is and loses not a wink of sleep over it.

[Wolf DeVoon]

knows exactly who he is and loses not a wink of sleep over it.

Widely accepted definition of a sociopath is someone who lacks ability to empathize with others, sees them as a crop to harvest.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Widely accepted definition of a sociopath is someone who lacks ability to empathize with others, sees them as a crop to harvest.

Livestock.

[anthony]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

Finally, my very own critic and editor!

[anthony]

"Obedient", subordinate, dependent - pick one or all of them - indicate loss of independence of mind.

Through, by, or for, others (in a general context).

To exist through their efforts and property, by their authority and approval, or for their forced or unforced service - all boils down to surrender of self, selflessness.

Deliberate evasion, of one's own unmistakable, unavoidable identity (its attributes, vulnerability and fallibilty) equally the nature of other persons, is the crux of all evils perpetrated.

Yes, of course, there are predators who are incapable of thinking for themselves. They rely on a mob boss, crime lord, Don or kingpin to do the mental heavy lifting. ("I swear on my mudder's grave, boss, I di-int do it!")

However, the predator I have in mind is his own boss. Like a salesman who scouts a territory before beginning his campaign, the prudent predator is careful, forward-thinking, and trusts himself above all others.

And, while I am sure that there are many predators who depend on their victim's approval ("How did I do in the hold-up yesterday? Did you like the way I eased the gun barrel out of my sleeve?"), the predator I had in mind doesn't value the opinion of his victim. After the job is done, he stops thinking about his victim altogether. And rather than thinking of his career as evil, he regards it as good. Successfully taking from others enhances his standard of living and reinforces his self-esteem.

No doubt there are many predators who evade their own identity. ("I'm not a thief. I'm a security expert.") But the predator I have in mind knows exactly who he is and loses not a wink of sleep over it.

"Identity" = man's nature. Thinking independently = volitional conceptualizing. Concepts = Principles to live by.

Predator = man dependent on and determined by others' minds and energy, so incapable of self-esteem.

You have read and understood Rand on this, Francisco; although I know you have no truck with "a volitional consciousness", I suspect this is your joke.

The predator is probably a sociopath, or a nihilist and skeptic, or both.

[Brant Gaede]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

Finally, my very own critic and editor!

Just covering all the bases.

--Brant

the coward's way

[Francisco Ferrer]

"Identity" = man's nature. Thinking independently = volitional conceptualizing. Concepts = Principles to live by.

Predator = man dependent on and determined by others' minds and energy, so incapable of self-esteem.

You have read and understood Rand on this, Francisco; although I know you have no truck with "a volitional consciousness", I suspect this is your joke.

The predator is probably a sociopath, or a nihilist and skeptic, or both.

If we define "animal" as a "non-tool-user," and then discover that there are in fact animals that use tools, then honesty (one of Rand's virtues) requires us to admit tool-users to the category of animals.

Similarly, if we define "man's nature" as non-predatory, and then discover that there are in fact a great number of human predators, then we have to revise our definition.

Regarding "thinking independently": I suppose there are predators who are quick to surrender their minds and become the unthinking servants of powerful masters. But what I had in mind was the predator who is thoughtful and skilled enough to make a success of taking from others without having to answer to a higher authority.

Developing a complete independence from others is admirable and part of the pioneer spirit that made America great. However, there is no compelling reason why today an individual has to churn his own milk, weave his own clothes, and fill his own cavities. In the modern world we can go to others for specialized labor without being ridiculed for being "dependent on and determined by others' minds and energy." If the predator relies on others for his livelihood, so does the teacher, the chiropractor, the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker.

Finally, while I admit that there may be many predators who lack in self-esteem, I am aware of no study that shows that all predators are lacking in self-esteem.

[anthony]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

Finally, my very own critic and editor!

Just covering all the bases.

--Brant

the coward's way

Now don't go away - I need a fierce editor.

[Brant Gaede]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

Finally, my very own critic and editor!

Just covering all the bases.

--Brant

the coward's way

Now don't go away - I need a fierce editor.

I'm too expensive and lazy and you're too hard.

--Brant

I wish I was

[Jules Troy]

The longer your post the less read it's likely to be.

--Brant

the shorter, the less you have to say

Finally, my very own critic and editor!

Just covering all the bases.

--Brant

the coward's way

Now don't go away - I need a fierce editor.

I'm too expensive and lazy and you're too hard.

--Brant

I wish I was

[Jules Troy]

They have a blue pill for that!?

[Brant Gaede]

?

What could you be talking about? The Matrix? I'm not leaving, Keneau.

--Brant

for obvious reasons

[Jules Troy]

Lol I meant Viagra hahah

[Brant Gaede]

Lol I meant Viagra hahah

Never heard of it. Is it an Italian sports car?

--Brant

does it come with a blonde?

[Jules Troy]

Possibly a redhead and a brunette too!

[anthony]

"Identity" = man's nature. Thinking independently = volitional conceptualizing. Concepts = Principles to live by.

Predator = man dependent on and determined by others' minds and energy, so incapable of self-esteem.

You have read and understood Rand on this, Francisco; although I know you have no truck with "a volitional consciousness", I suspect this is your joke.

The predator is probably a sociopath, or a nihilist and skeptic, or both.

If we define "animal" as a "non-tool-user," and then discover that there are in fact animals that use tools, then honesty (one of Rand's virtues) requires us to admit tool-users to the category of animals.

Similarly, if we define "man's nature" as non-predatory, and then discover that there are in fact a great number of human predators, then we have to revise our definition.

Regarding "thinking independently": I suppose there are predators who are quick to surrender their minds and become the unthinking servants of powerful masters. But what I had in mind was the predator who is thoughtful and skilled enough to make a success of taking from others without having to answer to a higher authority.

Developing a complete independence from others is admirable and part of the pioneer spirit that made America great. However, there is no compelling reason why today an individual has to churn his own milk, weave his own clothes, and fill his own cavities. In the modern world we can go to others for specialized labor without being ridiculed for being "dependent on and determined by others' minds and energy." If the predator relies on others for his livelihood, so does the teacher, the chiropractor, the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker.

Finally, while I admit that there may be many predators who lack in self-esteem, I am aware of no study that shows that all predators are lacking in self-esteem.

Again, you ignored wnat "independence" is and what it is not. Like William, it seems, you try explain this "prudent predator" by the biology of animals. However, man's biological nature, or each man's psychology, are insipidly tolerant explanations of the harm, the evil, that men do.

Is it your aim to justify, or even extoll, a predator? you appear to quite admire such a type.

A force of nature, maybe?

William asked: "How can a human predator as I have descibed be 'selfless'. "[?] (i.e. Bundy!!)

Answer: by lack of conviction and principle; by lack of a rational morality; by lack of character; by lack of pride and resolve. By evading the metaphysical nature of man (one's own/others' autonomy and independence, for one)..

They all presuppose 'a self': *I* do this - *I* don't do that - I stand for this.

But "conviction" can't be had or aspired to without a volitional consciousness. Here we come full circle to the root of the contention we have - determinism - by which one is what one is, largely pre-determined, and nothing much to be done about it.

[Selene]

Lol I meant Viagra hahah

Never heard of it. Is it an Italian sports car?

--Brant

does it come with a blonde?

Can't be, Italians and other primitive savages don't need Viagra, we have our minds.

A...

not understood by WASPS and Progressives...

[Francisco Ferrer]

Again, you ignored wnat "independence" is and what it is not. Like William, it seems, you try explain this "prudent predator" by the biology of animals. However, man's biological nature, or each man's psychology, are insipidly tolerant explanations of the harm, the evil, that men do.

Is it your aim to justify, or even extoll, a predator? you appear to quite admire such a type.

A force of nature, maybe?

William asked: "How can a human predator as I have descibed be 'selfless'. "[?] (i.e. Bundy!!)

Answer: by lack of conviction and principle; by lack of a rational morality; by lack of character; by lack of pride and resolve. By evading the metaphysical nature of man (one's own/others' autonomy and independence, for one)..

They all presuppose 'a self': *I* do this - *I* don't do that - I stand for this.

But "conviction" can't be had or aspired to without a volitional consciousness. Here we come full circle to the root of the contention we have - determinism - by which one is what one is, largely pre-determined, and nothing much to be done about it.

I have hardly ignored what independence is. I provided the example of the pioneer whose self-sufficiency makes him 100% independent of the thought and labor of others. Nor have I ignored what independence is not. I said that what I had in mind is not the man who waits upon the decisions of another before taking action.

I do not extoll the predator. I regard him as a pox on society. The issue at hand is not the goodness or evil of the predator but whether such a man can be rational. As I wrote in my first post on this thread, "A man could be both rationally self-interested and a violator of others' rights." I realize that this goes against the Romantic Idealism, er, I mean Realism, pictured in Rand's philoso-fiction. But then so does the possibility that predators could be tall and lean, with faces of angular planes.

Does the prudent predator lack conviction? No, not the conviction that looking out for Number One is Job One. Does he lack principle? No, not the principle that by his life and his love of it, he will never put another man's interests above his own.

Rational morality? Where is the proof that thinking "based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings" (Merriam-Webster) requires one to place the rights of others ahead of one's own goals?

Lack of character? What is pure, unadulterated egoism if not "moral excellence and firmness" (Merriam-Webster)?

Lack of pride and resolve? Where is the evidence that prudent predators cannot take pride in their work and resolve to perform their next task with the same level of competence?

The "metaphysical nature of man"? Where is the evidence that man is non-aggressive and rights-respecting by nature?

If consciousness is indeed volitional, demonstrate that the choice to respect the rights of others is always in one's self-interest.

[Wolf DeVoon]

Edison and Shockley abused and expropriated the work of others. Lindbergh was a nazi. Jack Warner a vindictive tyrant.

I don't think successful psychopaths are entirely an aberration of a bygone era. http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/07/05/psychopathy_and_the_ceo_top_executives_have_four_times_the_incidence_of_psychopathy_as_the_rest_of_us.html

 

[moralist]

Is it your aim to justify, or even extol, a predator? you appear to quite admire such a type.

Interesting point, Tony... I also caught that same lurid fascination with predators in Frank's comments like he's some kind of fan groupie wannabee.

Greg

[moralist]

I suppose there are predators who are quick to surrender their minds and become the unthinking servants of powerful masters. But what I had in mind was the predator who is thoughtful and skilled enough to make a success of taking from others without having to answer to a higher authority.

Dream on, Frank... never gonna happen.

By the higher authority of moral law, no one ever escapes what they become as the result of what they do.

Greg

[Selene]

I suppose there are predators who are quick to surrender their minds and become the unthinking servants of powerful masters. But what I had in mind was the predator who is thoughtful and skilled enough to make a success of taking from others without having to answer to a higher authority.

Dream on, Frank... never gonna happen.

By the higher authority of moral law, no one ever escapes what they become as the result of what they do.

Greg

Nien on the Nietzsche!

A...

[Wolf DeVoon]

I forgot to mention the worst psychopath of all -- Dr. Strangelove.