Natanyahu Lowers the Boom

[Selene]

To see why Hamas would reject a cease-fire from Israel, all you have to do is look at the history.

Would you give us a time frame for this particular slice of history that you refer too?

1949-2014

So, every Israeli act since 1949 justifies their evil intentions, correct?

[SoAMadDeathWish]

To see why Hamas would reject a cease-fire from Israel, all you have to do is look at the history.

Would you give us a time frame for this particular slice of history that you refer too?

1949-2014

So, every Israeli act since 1949 justifies their evil intentions, correct?

Is it now considered evil to defend yourself from an aggressor, or are you just going to pretend that Israel's numerous violations of ceasefire agreements never happened?

[Selene]

So, every Israeli act since 1949 justifies their evil intentions, correct?

Is it now considered evil to defend yourself from an aggressor, or are you just going to pretend that Israel's numerous violations of ceasefire agreements never happened?

Here is a new concept for you, you answer my question.

Then you can ask me questions.

[SoAMadDeathWish]

So, every Israeli act since 1949 justifies their evil intentions, correct?

Is it now considered evil to defend yourself from an aggressor, or are you just going to pretend that Israel's numerous violations of ceasefire agreements never happened?

Here is a new concept for you, you answer my question.

Then you can ask me questions.

Your question is a loaded question.

[PDS]

Can somebody remind me how the ignore function works again?

[SoAMadDeathWish]

Can somebody remind me how the ignore function works again?

Here you go:

[Selene]

Here is a new concept for you, you answer my question.

Then you can ask me questions.

Your question is a loaded question.

What are the elements of a "loaded question?"

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I have a friend I was discussing this with offline.

He told me he was a hardliner about Israel and did not agree with Yaron (see my post above re the podcast).

When I encounter people who argue like Naomi, I am inclined to agree with him.

Hamas would wipe Jews off the face of the earth and people like her would easily sit by and watch Jews wiped off the face of the earth and not raise a peep.

This already happened once in recent history--just like this. It doesn't need to happen again for people like me to stand up and say stop it.

When the stakes and reason are like that, I say my friend has a right to be a hardliner

Can somebody remind me how the ignore function works again?

Here you go:

And here ya go.

You're moderated.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I don't mind discussion against Israel.

The issue is complicated.

But I don't want bigotry preached on OL.

Bigots can do their bigot stuff elsewhere.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This child is writing to me offline to call me a coward.

If it keeps up, I will ban her.

Michael

EDIT: Naomi will no longer participate on OL.

[merjet]

This child is writing to me offline to call me a coward.

If it keeps up, I will ban her.

Michael

EDIT: Naomi will no longer participate on OL.

She won't have a chance to tell us how saintly, virtuous, and productive the Palestinians are?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Merlin,

I have not allowed OL to become a soapbox for anti-Muslim bigotry. Hell, we've even had a few Muslims show up to discuss Rand.

By the same token, I will not allow it to become a soapbox for antisemitism. This girl tried to couch her anti-Jew bigotry in rhetoric and technicalities, but I grew up around racists. I know the signs and it's pretty easy to tell when it's bigotry and when it's honest criticism.

She's a bigot.

I've seen this for some time, but she has done a pretty good job of keeping a lid on it until now. Not a great job, really, but passable. As usual, I was hoping for a change for the better.

Now I'm deeply involved in some projects and I just don't have time to babysit bigots.

Michael

[PDS]

Shall we now change the title of this thread to "MSK Lowers the Boom"?

Good call, I would say, MSK.

I don't know if she was a sock puppet or not, but I don't think your forum is going to suffer much from her absence.

[Francisco Ferrer]

Let me first emphasize that the moderator is fully within his rights to bar certain individuals from his forum. I've certainly had my own disagreements with SoAMadDeathWish. I know she could be prickly at times.

However, I regret the decision. Naomi made points that, if not always correct, deserved to be debated. It seems to me that during those debates more ad hominems flew at her than from her.

I warned her in a private message that the Israeli-Palestinian topic is a very touchy one and that I had given up trying to argue on this forum that there have been wrongs done by both sides.

She said she was prepared for the "sh__storm."

I'm sorry she's gone. I wish her well.

[anthony]

Yah, I never like to see anyone go, and there were some things I appreciated about Naomi.

I live in a country where anti-semitism is almost being publicly encouraged by statements from on high, the ANC attacking Israel at every turn. Now, hate speech is horrendous on Facebook. People are murdered here for less. I am concerned about the small minority of Jews, they who were the liberals who opposed apartheid and do more for poorer blacks than anyone. I thought at one stage Naomi was beginning to realise that hate-filled slogans and lies have active consequences from ignorant people, but sadly, no.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Francisco,

The Palestinian-Israeli issue is not all that touchy on OL. I grant that many reasonable people opine on cultures they have no notions of, but OL readers are pretty darn intelligent. They're not sheeple.

The preaching of collective hatred is touchy here, though. It's a sore point with me.

I was taught cinema by a dear Palestinian friend in Brazil and I married into an Arabian family down there. I am VERY familiar with that culture, more so than most of the non-Muslim Americans I have seen discussing this stuff online. My own two sons have that blood in them.

These are good people just like Jews are good people. I love them all.

It's the hate mongers who spoil it. And they always spoil it for everyone.

This girl is a hate-monger. Like I said, she is a bigot. (According to you, she wanted a shit-storm. Well, we're not even going to break wind over her.)

I don't want hate-mongering on OL. It's not that I choose one side over another. Oh... I will on specific issues, but I will not scapegoat entire collectives.

It's that I don't want all that hate-mongering around me. I don't want to breathe the same air as hate-mongers. They blow my high and they are generally mediocre people. I want distance from them. They don't build anything and they don't make the world a better place.

It's just not that complicated, unless one is a bigot and a hate-monger.

And then it gets complicated. For some damn reason, these idiots want to be around me.

Let them go join a hate-club somewhere. It's not like there is a lack of options.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

btw - Notice that this thread started with a pretty glaring error.

And notice that it got corrected without a lot of ceremony.

That's what reasonable intelligent people do. They correct their errors. They are not immune to having strong opinions, but they correct their errors.

Notice that hate-mongers don't do that. They dig in and keep preaching hate.

This thread is a great case study for this point.

Michael

[Selene]

It was the right move to make.

I was at the point with her like a feral cat playing with a cockroach.

I was amused with her.

Hey, maybe we can get Casey back!

[BaalChatzaf]

No, because I'm right, and you haven't really presented any arguments to the contrary. The genocide is at the stage of herding the undersirables into ghettos. They're just one step away from concentration camps.

Jews will never herd people into concentration camps. Not ever. I would bet my life on it. I would even bet the lives of Palestinians on it. If the Israeli government wanted to "rid rid of the problem" they would have done it right after the six day way or the 1973 war.

Allowing Gaza to exist as an autonomous entity was a very big mistake on the part of the Israelis and the Hamas Rocketeers have been making them pay for that mistake for decades.

Ba'al Chatzaf.

[PDS]

No, because I'm right, and you haven't really presented any arguments to the contrary. The genocide is at the stage of herding the undersirables into ghettos. They're just one step away from concentration camps.

Jews will never herd people into concentration camps. Not ever. I would bet my life on it. I would even bet the lives of Palestinians on it. If the Israeli government wanted to "rid rid of the problem" they would have done it right after the six day way or the 1973 war.

Allowing Gaza to exist as an autonomous entity was a very big mistake on the part of the Israelis and the Hamas Rocketeers have been making them pay for that mistake for decades.

Ba'al Chatzaf.

Ba'al: I am friends with some Hittites, Canaanites, and Jebusites from the Book of Deuteronomy who would like to have a word with you.

[william.scherk]

I respect MSK's call, and his 'it's complicated' views on Palestine/Israel. I have zero respect for Hamas. In each case they have lobbed rockets into Israel (even with no deaths) they knew quite well that Israel would use disproportionate force against their positions, leaders, HQs, rocket launching areas, and so on. Right now the death tolls are 180-odd Gazans (including children) and 2 Israelis.

So I revile the jihadists who took control of Gaza and established their dictatorship, and I revile their short-sighted tactics and their ugly revision of Islam.

Having said that, Gazans have my sympathy. They suffer and their suffering should not be swept away. I think we should occasionally listen to the voices of Israelis who oppose the kind of overwhelming reprisals we see. We should also be alert to a my-country-right-or-wrong settling of our minds.

As for Naomi Ludenberg, alexythimic 20-something from Chicago, I wish her well. The internet has a huge scope for argument of every kind and flavour of madness. No doubt Naomi will find a good fit somewhere else. I wonder what it is like to be not quite able to read the emotions of self and others.

Edited July 15, 2014 by william.scherk

[BaalChatzaf]

I respect MSK's call, and his 'it's complicated' views on Palestine/Israel. I have zero respect for Hamas. In each case they have lobbed rockets into Israel (even with no deaths) they knew quite well that Israel would use disproportionate force against their positions, leaders, HQs, rocket launching areas, and so on. Right now the death tolls are 180-odd Gazans (including children) and 2 Israelis.

So I revile the jihadists who took control of Gaza and established their dictatorship, and I revile their short-sighted tactics and their ugly revision of Islam.

Having said that, Gazans have my sympathy. They suffer and their suffering should not be swept away. I think we should occasionally listen to the voices of Israelis who oppose the kind of overwhelming reprisals we see. We should also be alert to a my-country-right-or-wrong settling of our minds.

As for Naomi Ludenberg, alexythimic 20-something from Chicago, I wish her well. The internet has a huge scope for argument of every kind and flavour of madness. No doubt Naomi will find a good fit somewhere else. I wonder what it is like to be not quite able to read the emotions of self and others.

The force was proportionate. Kill the Hamas Rocketeers and too f*cking bad if they set up behind baby cribs, hospital beds, and women's skirts. The Israelis simply cannot afford to permit sentimentality to interfere with their proper defense. Unfortunately the Israelis do not have the balls to finish Gaza once and for all. It would reflect badly on them, I suppose.

[moralist]

I was amused with her.

I didn't trust it's claimed gender as being true... however, it did provide entertainment value until it failed the Israel test big tiime. The Jews are like that. There's no middle road. They were chosen to be the world's moral acid test.

Greg

[moralist]

I respect MSK's call, and his 'it's complicated' views on Palestine/Israel. I have zero respect for Hamas. In each case they have lobbed rockets into Israel (even with no deaths) they knew quite well that Israel would use disproportionate force against their positions, leaders, HQs, rocket launching areas, and so on. Right now the death tolls are 180-odd Gazans (including children) and 2 Israelis.

So I revile the jihadists who took control of Gaza and established their dictatorship, and I revile their short-sighted tactics and their ugly revision of Islam.

Having said that, Gazans have my sympathy. They suffer and their suffering should not be swept away. I think we should occasionally listen to the voices of Israelis who oppose the kind of overwhelming reprisals we see. We should also be alert to a my-country-right-or-wrong settling of our minds.

As for Naomi Ludenberg, alexythimic 20-something from Chicago, I wish her well. The internet has a huge scope for argument of every kind and flavour of madness. No doubt Naomi will find a good fit somewhere else. I wonder what it is like to be not quite able to read the emotions of self and others.

The force was proportionate. Kill the Hamas Rocketeers and too f*cking bad if they set up behind baby cribs, hospital beds, and women's skirts. The Israelis simply cannot afford to permit sentimentality to interfere with their proper defense.

No matter that the Israelis do, they're hated anyways.

Nataynhu was smart to stop for 6 hours to allow the enemies of Israel to show their true colors.

Unfortunately the Israelis do not have the balls to finish Gaza once and for all. It would reflect badly on them, I suppose.

They're not done yet. Remember what happened last Blood Moon Tetrad?

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

No matter that the Israelis do, they're hated anyways.

Nataynhu was smart to stop for 6 hours to allow the enemies of Israel to show their true colors.

That is a given. Jews are the bogey men of the human race.

And yes, Bibi made a cool move.

P.S. Blood Moon or not the Israelis are never going to allow a charge of genocide to be pinned on them, even if they suffer for not doing so. You have to be Jewish to comprehend that. In certain areas and issues Jews are bashful. The last unbashful Jew was Sampson who brought the temple of Dagon down on the heads of the Philistines as well as himself. BTW Phillistine translated into Hebrew and Arabic means Palestinian. (פלשתימ, הפלסטיני)

Ba'al Chatzaf