Bataan Death March Survivor Dies

[Brant Gaede]

It was only "the greatest generation" because it didn't fight communists.

--Brant

I fought communists--I won

[Francisco Ferrer]

Sure, sure. My uncle was at Iwo Jima. For centuries children have been raised on stories of men marching cheerfully to their deaths while singing the glory of King and Country.

Theirs not to reason why,

Theirs but to do and die

Statism will begin its overdue retreat when men are not so quick to answer the bugle call of "duty."

You should talk to soldiers who were there. No one of them ever marched cheerfully to their deaths. Most of them were scared but they could focus well enough to complete their missions or die trying. Any soldier who tells who he cheerfully faced death is either lying or is deluded.

Only Jihadis are happy to die for Allah and that is because they get to fuck their 72 virgins endlessly.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I didn't say that that in the heat of battle men weren't scared. I referred to the myths they were given to suckle on in their childhood. What I will say is that my father's generation all too quickly swallowed the big lie that government equals country, that patriotism is following orders from FDR on down, and that real men don't think too hard about why exactly they're fighting German or Japanese (or Vietnamese or Sunni) soldiers--they just do it.

[Francisco Ferrer]

It's an idiotic contest for collectivist minds.

Greatest generation. Greatest vintage of human beings.

Do people who come here really think in those terms?

Excuse me but you seem to...as you stated, with obvious disdain, "greatest generation phooey!"

Surely you have an idea as to what a great generation would be comprised of, you know, values.

Oh, I didn't know you did a vulcan mind meld on me and know what terms I think of. Really.

Never mind.

Happy 4th. of July!

-J

I wished to make the point that there is nothing admirable or remotely great about a populace whose voting majority would send FDR to the White House four times, who with few exceptions never seriously questioned the wisdom of centralizing the economy, granting the President unlimited authority over the nation, enslaving young men by the millions, and lending material aid to the worst murderers in history. Were the young men and women of the 1770's much better? Perhaps not. Too many of them believed that God had invented the African expressly to till their fields and serve their tea.

[Backlighting]

It's an idiotic contest for collectivist minds.

Greatest generation. Greatest vintage of human beings.

Do people who come here really think in those terms?

Excuse me but you seem to...as you stated, with obvious disdain, "greatest generation phooey!"

Surely you have an idea as to what a great generation would be comprised of, you know, values.

Oh, I didn't know you did a vulcan mind meld on me and know what terms I think of. Really.

Never mind.

Happy 4th. of July!

-J

I wished to make the point that there is nothing admirable or remotely great about a populace whose voting majority would send FDR to the White House four times, who with few exceptions never seriously questioned the wisdom of centralizing the economy, granting the President unlimited authority over the nation, enslaving young men by the millions, and lending material aid to the worst murderers in history. Were the young men and women of the 1770's much better? Perhaps not. Too many of them believed that God had invented the African expressly to till their fields and serve their tea.

Understood.

[Selene]

Were the young men and women of the 1770's much better? Perhaps not. Too many of them believed that God had invented the African expressly to till their fields and serve their tea.

A decent question.

I do not know about that second. "Too many of them believed..." is a tough one to prove.

I understand your points though.

I also believe that to lay a general "human problem" at the feet of our independence which did make a significant break in the structure of the relationship between State and subject that has worked is unfair.

What has not worked was keeping it simple to separate and check power from different elements of the State.

You are correct that we have lost that separation and I am terribly tormented that we cannot get it back to any significant degree.

Have you seen the HBO series on John Adams with Paul Giamatti? I watched a lot of it yesterday. Excellent series.

A...

[Francisco Ferrer]

Most of the 13 original states formally abolished slavery before 1800, so it is hardly "unfair" to to treat independence from a local master as philosophically separate from independence from a foreign master. The human problem is one and the same.

Yes, I've seen Giamatti's John Adams twice. One day I'll watch it again.

[moralist]

What has not worked was keeping it simple to separate and check power from different elements of the State.

This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people.

You are correct that we have lost that separation and I am terribly tormented that we cannot get it back to any significant degree.

It was not lost.

It was willfully thrown away by a critical mass of indecent people who failed to govern themselves.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

What has not worked was keeping it simple to separate and check power from different elements of the State.

This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people.

Decent people should not have to put up with their slaves running off and not being returned. Thus the Constitution and its Fugitive Slave Clause made sure that the God-given right to property in human beings would not be abridged.

Of course, if you weren't decent, you didn't get your slaves back. Presumably, they became the property of someone who was decent.

[Brant Gaede]

If you need to feel right and good by hiding in your decency go right ahead. That does not address the proper structure of government and how that is to be maintained over time nor the actuality of what that government ends up doing.

--Brant

people being what they are maybe they need a king?--or . . . ?

[moralist]

Decent people should not have to put up with their slaves running off and not being returned. Thus the Constitution and its Fugitive Slave Clause made sure that the God-given right to property in human beings would not be abridged.

I don't know exactly how to break this to you, Frank... but now is not the dead past.

Today in America slavery does not exist, except for the stupid fools who have sold themselves into slavery to their own debts and the insurance bureaucracy.

Greg

[Selene]

Decent people should not have to put up with their slaves running off and not being returned. Thus the Constitution and its Fugitive Slave Clause made sure that the God-given right to property in human beings would not be abridged.

I don't know exactly how to break this to you, Frank... but now is not the dead past.

Today in America slavery does not exist, except for the stupid fools who have sold themselves into slavery to their own debts and the insurance bureaucracy.

Greg

Little proviso on what Greg just stated.

De jure, slavery does not exist in the US.

De facto, there are individuals who are in illegal slavery traffic within the US.

A...

[moralist]

If you need to feel right and good by hiding in your decency go right ahead.

Yeah... I'm hiding right here in the open with John!

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

- John Adams.

That does not address the proper structure of government and how that is to be maintained over time nor the actuality of what that government ends up doing.

If you seek to maintain the proper structure of government over time... govern your own life first.

And the government you deserve will treat you exactly as decently as you are.decent...

...because it is accountable to exactly the same higher moral law as you are.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

Decent people should not have to put up with their slaves running off and not being returned. Thus the Constitution and its Fugitive Slave Clause made sure that the God-given right to property in human beings would not be abridged.

I don't know exactly how to break this to you, Frank... but now is not the dead past.

Today in America slavery does not exist, except for the stupid fools who have sold themselves into slavery to their own debts and the insurance bureaucracy.

Greg

In Post #32 you wrote, "This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people."

Now if you are truly unwilling to examine an event in the "dead past," how could you know anything about the process or rationale under which the American system of government was designed?

If, as you claim, the Constitution "was designed to work only for decent people," provide evidence that the Fugitive Slave Clause, an unambiguously clear provision of the original Constitution, benefited decent people.

If, on the other hand, you have forbidden yourself from reviewing documents from 1787 then you are making historical claims and at the same time saying those claims cannot be validated.

[moralist]

In Post #32 you wrote, "This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people."

Now if you are truly unwilling to examine an event in the "dead past," how could you know anything about the process or rationale under which the American system of government was designed?

...because I know how those moral principles work in the present.

If, as you claim, the Constitution "was designed to work only for decent people,"

It certainly does. John Adams understood that self evident truth... and so do I.

And if the US Constitution isn't working for you right here and right now... then you aren't decent.

provide evidence that the Fugitive Slave Clause, an unambiguously clear provision of the original Constitution, benefited decent people.

You need to pull your head out of your past, Frank. Here's another shocker for you: Slavery is illegal today.

Show me someone who lives in the past...

...and I'll show you someone who is a failure in the present.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

In Post #32 you wrote, "This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people."

Now if you are truly unwilling to examine an event in the "dead past," how could you know anything about the process or rationale under which the American system of government was designed?

...because I know how those moral principles work in the present.

If, as you claim, the Constitution "was designed to work only for decent people,"

It certainly does. John Adams understood that self evident truth... and so do I.

And if the US Constitution isn't working for you right here and right now... then you aren't decent.

provide evidence that the Fugitive Slave Clause, an unambiguously clear provision of the original Constitution, benefited decent people.

You need to pull your head out of your past, Frank. Here's another shocker for you: Slavery is illegal today.

Show me someone who lives in the past...

...and I'll show you someone who is a failure in the present.

Greg

It is not a self evident truth. The only so called self evident truths are the underlying laws of logic, the principle of identity and the principle of non-contradiction. Anything else is derived from experience.

The reason why the Greek philosophers and their followers through the ages held up real science is because they have the ----A Priori disease. A belief in self evident truths. A belief that one could haul out the cosmos from his mental rectum.

Ba'a Chatzaf

[moralist]

It is not a self evident truth. The only so called self evident truths are the underlying laws of logic,

Ok, Bob... is this statement true?

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

--John Adams

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

It is not a self evident truth. The only so called self evident truths are the underlying laws of logic,

Ok, Bob... is this statement true?

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

--John Adams

Greg

It was also made for political crooks who are doing very well for themselves. Check it out. Read the newspapers.

The word "only" is a snare and a delusion along with the word "all".

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Francisco Ferrer]

In Post #32 you wrote, "This is because the American system of government was designed to work only for decent people."

Now if you are truly unwilling to examine an event in the "dead past," how could you know anything about the process or rationale under which the American system of government was designed?

...because I know how those moral principles work in the present.

Fine. Use your knowledge of the present to show how the American system of government, which included the Fugitive Slave Clause, was designed to work only for decent people. Perhaps your argument is that since there is no Constitutional slavery in the living present, there couldn't have been any in the dead past, an argument similar to the idea that since the guillotine is not used today it must not have been used in the past.

If, as you claim, the Constitution "was designed to work only for decent people,"

It certainly does. John Adams understood that self evident truth... and so do I.

And if the US Constitution isn't working for you right here and right now... then you aren't decent.

What do you know of John Adams? Is your information based on his present existence or are you relying on documents from the dead past?

The fact that John Adams and some other Founders opposed slavery does not mean that the Constitution did not require return upon claim of any "Person held to Service or Labour" in one state who had escaped to another state. Adams did not suspend the clause during his administration.

Should one therefore conclude that none of the many slaves who were returned to bondage under this provision were decent?

Or that those who got their slaves returned to them were decent?

[moralist]

It was also made for political crooks who are doing very well for themselves. Check it out. Read the newspapers.

The word "only" is a snare and a delusion along with the word "all".

Ok Bob... in your opinion John Adams was a liar.

Just wanted you to be perfectly clear exactly where you stood... and you have.

Greg

[moralist]

What do you know of John Adams?

All I know is that he spoke those words...

...and that they are true today.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

It was also made for political crooks who are doing very well for themselves. Check it out. Read the newspapers.

The word "only" is a snare and a delusion along with the word "all".

Ok Bob... in your opinion John Adams was a liar.

Just wanted you to be perfectly clear exactly where you stood... and you have.

Greg

I am sure John Adams was sincere. He was also mistaken as subsequent facts clearly show.

No one is perfect.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Francisco Ferrer]

It is not a self evident truth. The only so called self evident truths are the underlying laws of logic,

Ok, Bob... is this statement true?

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

--John Adams

Greg

What do you know of John Adams?

All I know is that he spoke those words...

...and that they are true today.

Greg

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional for a school district to provide clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional for a nativity scene to be displayed inside a government building. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional to post the Ten Commandments in public schools. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional to have daily Bible readings and the reciting of the the Lord's Prayer in public schools. It is today.

So much for the idea of a Constitution made only for a religious people.

[moralist]

It is not a self evident truth. The only so called self evident truths are the underlying laws of logic,

Ok, Bob... is this statement true?

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

--John Adams

Greg

What do you know of John Adams?

All I know is that he spoke those words...

...and that they are true today.

Greg

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional for a school district to provide clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional for a nativity scene to be displayed inside a government building. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional to post the Ten Commandments in public schools. It is today.

In John Adams's lifetime it was not unconstitutional to have daily Bible readings and the reciting of the the Lord's Prayer in public schools. It is today.

So much for the idea of a Constitution made only for a religious people.

It's notable that you omitted the most important qualifier... moral.

People can be religious and immoral, just as they can be secular and moral.

All of the things you listed are simply the government's response to the loss of morality in the population. The size and nature of the US government today is a monument built by the immorality of the people in their own rotten image... so they are getting the government they deserve rammed right down their throats.

Personally, I have no complaints about how the government treats me. It basically leaves me alone to do as I see fit and to enjoy my life, my liberty, and my pursuit of happiness...

...but I'm sure you also regard the declaration of those God given rights as not being self evident truths uttered by liars.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

My Post #47 refutes your claim in Post #47 that Adams's belief that the Constitution was "made only for a moral and religious people" is true today. Numerous court rulings, of which I have given a fair sample, demonstrate that the Constitution today is a means to support the rights of non-religious, moral people.

Furthermore, as I have earlier shown, not even the original Constitution was "designed to work only for decent people" or "made only for a moral and religious people," since it explicitly protected and preserved the highly immoral institution of slavery.

God-given, self-evident rights? One of the supposedly self-evident rights that the Constitution upheld was for slave owners to to be able to haul their runaway Africans back to the plantation without Yankee abolitionists interfering.

But perhaps "decent" slaves had no complaints.

[Selene]

God-given, self-evident rights? One of the supposedly self-evident rights that the Constitution upheld was for slave owners to to be able to haul their runaway Africans back to the plantation without Yankee abolitionists interfering.

But perhaps "decent" slaves had no complaints.

OK we got it. As you well know, certain issues that made there way into the document were "compromises."