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I have brought up Christian Objectivism before on OL.as have others...

Christian Objectivist

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I am having a problem here. How can there be Christian -Objectivism-. The major premise of Christianity is that Christ sacrificed himself for the remission of our sins. Such an act is maximally altruistic. How does one resolve this perplexity?

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I am having a problem here. How can there be Christian -Objectivism-. The major premise of Christianity is that Christ sacrificed himself for the remission of our sins. Such an act is maximally altruistic. How does one resolve this perplexity?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Let C be the set of Christian ideas. Let O be the set of Objectivist ideas. Then Christian Objectivism or Objectivist Christainity is the intersection of set C and set O. Perhaps this is a null set.

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I am having a problem here. How can there be Christian -Objectivism-. The major premise of Christianity is that Christ sacrificed himself for the remission of our sins. Such an act is maximally altruistic. How does one resolve this perplexity?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Let C be the set of Christian ideas. Let O be the set of Objectivist ideas. Then Christian Objectivism or Objectivist Christainity is the intersection of set C and set O. Perhaps this is a null set.

In addition Christianity is poisoned by the concept of Original Sin. That pernicious meme colors ALL of Christianity.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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You mean kinda like that "Chosen People" meme?

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You mean kinda like that "Chosen People" meme?

That is one of the Super Bad Memes of Judaism. Fortunately the Jews got the shit kicked out of them by the Assyrians, the Babylonians (Persians), the Romans, the Christians and the Puerto Ricans. That cured most Jews of the Chosen People nonsense.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I dunnnnooooo Ba'al the IDF is pretty badass I don't think they got the memo!

I was referring to times past. At present only Orthodox Jews (a minority of a minority) believe in the Chosen People nonsense.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I kinda like Debbie Schlussel, she has bigger balls than most people. Don't agree with some of her stuff but holy crap she can be a real pit bull.

Dude:

Lol...when you drop a name, provide a link!

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/bio/

I had never heard of her before.

A...

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I am having a problem here. How can there be Christian -Objectivism-. The major premise of Christianity is that Christ sacrificed himself for the remission of our sins. Such an act is maximally altruistic. How does one resolve this perplexity?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Let C be the set of Christian ideas. Let O be the set of Objectivist ideas. Then Christian Objectivism or Objectivist Christainity is the intersection of set C and set O. Perhaps this is a null set.

In addition Christianity is poisoned by the concept of Original Sin. That pernicious meme colors ALL of Christianity.

Ba'al Chatzaf

C'mon Bob. Original Sin = Failure to Choose Human Consciousness. Not hard to understand. If you don't think that that is pretty much a universal, look around you.

As far as Jesus' sacrifice, he looked at the world around him and said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stoned those sent to you. How often would I have gathered your children together, as the hen gathers her chicks under her wing, and you would not! Behold, your home is left unto you desolate!" He saw a world where everyone was caught in a cycle of being victims and victimizers in turn, and told the people that if they felt they absolutely had to make a sacrifice, then let it be Him, the Son of Adam, that the sacrifice of ANY Son of Adam, of any human being was that final, ultimate, infinite sacrifice, the end of any and all human sacrifices. Otherwise, henceforth their home would be left unto them desolate.

This is not a call to Ayn Rand's Altruist straw man, but a call to empowerment against all forces oppression and evil in the world.

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I'll let you guys sort out those ancient rights and wrongs as stumbled down to us through oral history.

However, Steve makes as excellent point:


As far as Jesus' sacrifice, he looked at the world around him and said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stoned those sent to you. How often would I have gathered your children together, as the hen gathers her chicks under her wing, and you would not! Behold, your home is left unto you desolate!" He saw a world where everyone was caught in a cycle of being victims and victimizers in turn, and told the people that if they felt they absolutely had to make a sacrifice, then let it be Him, the Son of Adam, that the sacrifice of ANY Son of Adam, of any human being was that final, ultimate, infinite sacrifice, the end of any and all human sacrifices. Otherwise, henceforth their home would be left unto them desolate.

This is not a call to Ayn Rand's Altruist straw man, but a call to empowerment against all forces oppression and evil in the world.

And, it is a message that strikes to my Christian [de minimus though they are], and my deep seated Randian concepts.

A...

P.S. A grudging congratualtions on your hockey Gold medal.

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I dunnnnooooo Ba'al the IDF is pretty badass I don't think they got the memo!

I was referring to times past. At present only Orthodox Jews (a minority of a minority) believe in the Chosen People nonsense.

Ba'al Chatzaf

And Catholics and Evangelicals -- like only, say 1/4 of the world's population

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I dunnnnooooo Ba'al the IDF is pretty badass I don't think they got the memo!

I was referring to times past. At present only Orthodox Jews (a minority of a minority) believe in the Chosen People nonsense.

Ba'al Chatzaf

And Catholics and Evangelicals -- like only, say 1/4 of the world's population

All the more reason for disbelieving the nonsense.

I have a rule of thumb. Anything the evangelicals bet on I bet against.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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This is not a call to Ayn Rand's Altruist straw man, but a call to empowerment against all forces oppression and evil in the world.

I've no clue what Rand's "Altruist straw man" is, but for the rest, you made a well re-framed, rational parable...I like it.

You can take it further, that Jesus saw around him not just enforced sacrifice of the innocents to their oppressors, but also the blind, accepting SELF-sacrifice of their god-given, independent minds (their "souls") to others' moral authority, power and whim.

And so, 'Jesus said': "I will show you the evil of what you do to yourselves, by my own self-sacrifice - and let me be the last".

(Rand's core meaning of altruism, that the worst is not when people are forced to surrender their minds to a master or the collective, but when they do it automatically and willingly.)

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Robinreborn:

Here is the start of a thread on OL which Petered out .... a little Christian lingo in there...

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Also the thread with this one, Robin:

Hi Bradley,

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never turns to faith in contradiction of reason.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never turns to mercy opposed to justice.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who pursues monetary riches for himself.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never sacrifices his own judgment to a higher-than-human intelligence in the universe.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who in no way believes he and his loved ones will arise from the grave and live forever in happiness
in the presence of Jesus Christ (the son of God and savior of the world) in the kingdom of God.

A Christian can’t be any those five ways. An Objectivist must be all those ways, except the third is elective in degree.

. . .

One cannot be a Christian and an Objectivist.

Stephen

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Also the thread with this one, Robin:

Hi Bradley,

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never turns to faith in contradiction of reason.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never turns to mercy opposed to justice.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who pursues monetary riches for himself.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who never sacrifices his own judgment to a higher-than-human intelligence in the universe.

I can’t buy that one is a Christian who in no way believes he and his loved ones will arise from the grave and live forever in happiness

in the presence of Jesus Christ (the son of God and savior of the world) in the kingdom of God.

A Christian can’t be any those five ways. An Objectivist must be all those ways, except the third is elective in degree.

. . .

One cannot be a Christian and an Objectivist.

Stephen

(Gotta bring this forward so you'll know what I'm talking about)

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This is very interesting.

I think one of the reasons why religion has lasted so long is it's ambiguity. It's very open to interpretation and the interpretations have changed over time. I suppose you could reinterpret Christianity to be compatible with Objectivism, but you'd find yourself disagreeing with Christians most of the time.

I suppose there are practical reasons to consider yourself a christian, there is still discrimination against atheists in this country.

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Culturally I'm a WASP. I never believed in the Supreme Being thing. Or Jesus Christ as the son of God. The Adventists didn't get a hold of me until I was well over seven. By then it was much too late. It was likely always too late. I think it is genetic. In terms of orientation and thinking I've been conceptual since 2 1/2. At five I thought I knew how to think, but I didn't. I was correct that I thought--tried to--for understanding. The tools were quite deficient as such. That's always been my simple orientation, just trying to understand. I had to laboriously learn to not protect my ego for that got in the way and weakened my ego anyway. In this I've been partially--not completely--successful. For instance, my ego is on full display right now. That's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable because I'm still trying to protect it to some extent, which is an expression of weakness. Sans that this post wouldn't even exist. Created, maybe, but then deleted.

When your ego is tied into "God" that subverts it. When it is oriented to reality, that buffs it up. Reality is my God works for me, but pantheism is atheism expressed positively. Because it is a negative term I avoid applying it to myself. I do not call myself an atheist. Besides, I do believe, just not in Him. I believe in reality. A is A. "Believe" is used for axiomatic reasoning for nothing is to be adduced x the axioms to verify them. Reason starts with an assertion and description of the assertion. Reality exists and I exist with a consciousness capable of apprehending that.

--Brant

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Reality is that which is. It is not an object of worship...

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