Carlos Castaneda

[Ellen Stuttle]

Greg, another question, one concerning Castaneda's death.

Repeating part of an excerpt from the site advertising your wife's book Filming Castaneda:

http://www.filmingcastaneda.com/5.html

[bold emphasis added]

Carlos, [Nuri's] father by adoption, had died two weeks earlier, in April of 1998, from a liver disease, the unthinkable death of an ordinary man, a flaw a sorcerer could easily avoid, according to his boasting in class, and a far cry from the promised group jump into infinity. During the last months of his decline he hid his dying face in shame, even from the chosen women lovers. He did not know that I watched him secretly while he dragged his tired feet from the car into the house, all spryness gone. As death descended I, the sidewalk witness shared the sobering sight with only the few women that took care of him.

The material I quoted from "Straight Dope" specifically identifies the cause of death as cancer:

[...] from "Straight Dope."

link

Before his death from cancer in 1998 [...].

Do you know if his final disease indeed was cancer?

His feeling that as a sorcerer he should have been able to avoid "the unthinkable death of an ordinary man" indicates that he believed at least some of his own story.

His shame, if correctly reported, has a parallel to Rand's mystification that she could have gotten cancer, which she thought came from "bad premises," and her consequent not giving Allan Blumenthal permission to tell his classes why she'd had surgery and warn them against smoking.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Yes, I'm sure [that UCLA didn't rescind Castaneda's doctorate]... even though there is no documentation for something that was not done. If his Doctorate was revoked, we would certainly have known because we were privy to their home and office communications.

Greg

I'd still like documentation. I think there has to have been discussion of the issue on the part of faculty and administrators at UCLA, considering all the flak that was raised.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

I was interested in the psychology of how the targets are culled from the herd and inculcated into the cult. Something like NLP? What does he see? And how does he get their ego's wrapped around believing his fantasies?

The situation with Castaneda's "witches" sounds to me more like they were choosing him, they wanted to be his "helpmates."

A movie you might find worth watching is "Surviving Picasso" - imdb link.

Ellen

Ellen,

"Helpmates". Like they knew (or sensed) he was disassociated from reality and wanted to protect him? Sort of a mothers' instinct? Interesting. I'll check out "Surviving Picasso". Thank you very much for your comment and link.

-Mike E.

I didn't mean "helpmates" in the respect of their feeling Castaneda was disassociated from reality. Judging from what Greg's said, the "witches" believed that Castaneda was a sorcerer. I meant their wanting to be his assistants in his mission.

I saw that sort of thing in action once, in a brief glimpse, at an afternoon presentation I attended given by a New Age guru. He'd not long before been divorced by his wife. There was a young woman in the audience who was obviously trying to attract his notice. I saw the two of them talking together during the break, and I think she was succeeding.

With the Picasso situation, he would show an interest, but the woman would show an eagerness. The woman in the movie ended up running his house and tending to business matters. He didn't treat her well. Eventually, she did leave, just as another was taking her place. The replacement woman says that she's nothing, he's everything, her sole desire is to serve him.

Anthony Hopkins plays Picasso.

Ellen

[Jonathan]

Greg,

I'm curious about what type of equipment you used to record Castaneda. Did you use any special cameras, lenses, film or sound equipment?

J

[moralist]

Yes, I'm sure [that UCLA didn't rescind Castaneda's doctorate]... even though there is no documentation for something that was not done. If his Doctorate was revoked, we would certainly have known because we were privy to their home and office communications.

Greg

I'd still like documentation. I think there has to have been discussion of the issue on the part of faculty and administrators at UCLA, considering all the flak that was raised.

Ellen

It should be easy to find what you're looking for. Just search for UCLA's current list of PhD holders. Carlos got his in 1973. See if he's still on the list.

Maybe Carlos' PhD revocation could have occurred posthumously. But once he died and everyone else living in his house took off, our fun was over because there was nothing more to do. All I know for certain is that it definitely was not done while he was alive.

Greg

[moralist]

Greg, another question, one concerning Castaneda's death.

Repeating part of an excerpt from the site advertising your wife's book Filming Castaneda:

http://www.filmingcastaneda.com/5.html

[bold emphasis added]

Carlos, [Nuri's] father by adoption, had died two weeks earlier, in April of 1998, from a liver disease, the unthinkable death of an ordinary man, a flaw a sorcerer could easily avoid, according to his boasting in class, and a far cry from the promised group jump into infinity. During the last months of his decline he hid his dying face in shame, even from the chosen women lovers. He did not know that I watched him secretly while he dragged his tired feet from the car into the house, all spryness gone. As death descended I, the sidewalk witness shared the sobering sight with only the few women that took care of him.

The material I quoted from "Straight Dope" specifically identifies the cause of death as cancer:

[...] from "Straight Dope."

link

Before his death from cancer in 1998 [...].

Do you know if his final disease indeed was cancer?

His feeling that as a sorcerer he should have been able to avoid "the unthinkable death of an ordinary man" indicates that he believed at least some of his own story.

His shame, if correctly reported, has a parallel to Rand's mystification that she could have gotten cancer, which she thought came from "bad premises," and her consequent not giving Allan Blumenthal permission to tell his classes why she'd had surgery and warn them against smoking.

Ellen

Yes. There was no doubt about that. Carlos ingested Datura that he grew in his back yard. Still he lived pretty long. 72 isn't that young to die, and every one of us is going to eventually croak from something we do.

Perhaps Ayn Rand's flawed premise was that smoking wouldn't damage her lungs.

Greg

[moralist]

Greg,

I'm curious about what type of equipment you used to record Castaneda. Did you use any special cameras, lenses, film or sound equipment?

J

Analog VHS tape cassette camera, no lenses, not close enough to get sound. Remember this was back in 1996-8.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

Just search for UCLA's current list of PhD holders. Carlos got his in 1973. See if he's still on the list.

I don't find such a list.

However, I found something else which indicates that at least one of the professors in the UCLA anthropology department, Clement Meighan, continued to think that Castaneda's reports were of real material. This comes from an article by someone, name John Pint, who argues pro-Castaneda:

link

Shall we then conclude that A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah, How I found Livingstone, and Kon-Tiki are fiction? I note that Castanedas professor at UCLA, highly respected archeologist and anthropologist Clement Meighan, said the following about Castaneda in 1989 (thirteen years after de Mille's attacks): "I had absolutely no reason to think and I still dont think that he was faking it I know this stuff is authentic. I know he got it from an Indian." Perhaps de Mille has committed the classic sin of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Ellen

[moralist]

Just search for UCLA's current list of PhD holders. Carlos got his in 1973. See if he's still on the list.

I don't find such a list.

(shrug...) Ok, that means you can believe that his PhD was revoked.

However, I found something else which indicates that at least one of the professors in the UCLA anthropology department, Clement Meighan, continued to think that Castaneda's reports were of real material. This comes from an article by someone, name John Pint, who argues pro-Castaneda:

link

Shall we then conclude that A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah, How I found Livingstone, and Kon-Tiki are fiction? I note that Castanedas professor at UCLA, highly respected archeologist and anthropologist Clement Meighan, said the following about Castaneda in 1989 (thirteen years after de Mille's attacks): "I had absolutely no reason to think and I still dont think that he was faking it I know this stuff is authentic. I know he got it from an Indian." Perhaps de Mille has committed the classic sin of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Yeah, People lined up on both sides.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

(shrug...) Ok, that means you can believe that his PhD was revoked.

'Tisn't what I believe.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Mike,

I found a Salon article which has information of the sort you're interested in.

It's a long article. Scroll down to get to material about the control techniques.

Greg and his wife appear somewhat before this part.

link

Although she was later devastated when Castaneda banished her from the Sunday sessions, telling her “the spirits spit you out,” she eventually recovered, and now remembers this as the most exciting time of her life. According to all who knew him, Castaneda wasn’t only mesmerizing, he also had a great sense of humor. “One of the reasons I was involved was the idea that I was in this fascinating, on the edge, avant garde, extraordinary group of beings,” Wallace said. “Life was always exciting. We were free from the tedium of the world.”

And because, as Jennings puts it, Castaneda was a “control freak,” followers were often freed from the anxiety of decision-making. Some had more independence, but even Wallace and Bruce Wagner, both of whom were given a certain leeway, were sometimes, according to Wallace, required to have their writing vetted by Donner-Grau. Jennings and Wallace also report that Castaneda directed the inner circle’s sex lives in great detail.

The most difficult part, Wallace believes, was that you never knew where you stood. “He’d pick someone, crown them, and was as capable of kicking them out in 48 hours as keeping them 10 years. You never knew. So there was always trepidation, a lot of jealousy.” Sometimes initiates were banished for obscure spiritual offenses, such as drinking cappuccino (which Castaneda himself guzzled in great quantities). They’d no longer be invited to the compound. Phone calls wouldn’t be returned. Having been allowed for a time into a secret, magical family, they’d be abruptly cut off. For some, Wallace believes, this pattern was highly traumatic. “In a weird way,” she said, “the worst thing that can happen is when you’re loved and loved and then abused and abused, and there are no rules, and the rules keep changing, and you can never do right, but then all of a sudden they’re kissing you. That’s the most crazy-making behavioral modification there is. And that’s what Carlos specialized in; he was not stupid.”

Whether disciples were allowed to stay or forced to leave seems often to have depended on the whims of a woman known as the Blue Scout. [....]

Ellen

[Jonathan]

Greg,

I'm curious about what type of equipment you used to record Castaneda. Did you use any special cameras, lenses, film or sound equipment?

J

Analog VHS tape cassette camera, no lenses, not close enough to get sound. Remember this was back in 1996-8.

Greg

Ah, I see. You were only shooting video. I was assuming that you might have also shot still-frame photos with a long lens and maybe used sensitive audio mics to pick up sound from a distance.

J

[anthony]

Dunno much about cultism, but this guy could almost have been narcissistic, and I know some about them. When you're up close, it's as if a 1000 watt spotlight is on you, alone. That's your reward from them for providing their necessary "Narcissistic Supply". But screw up, and man you're dead!

(It occurred to me back then, the best justice for a narcissist would be another narcissist. Strikes me now, this could be the making of a cult.)

[Mikee]

Mike,

I found a Salon article which has information of the sort you're interested in.

It's a long article. Scroll down to get to material about the control techniques.

Greg and his wife appear somewhat before this part.

link

Although she was later devastated when Castaneda banished her from the Sunday sessions, telling her “the spirits spit you out,” she eventually recovered, and now remembers this as the most exciting time of her life. According to all who knew him, Castaneda wasn’t only mesmerizing, he also had a great sense of humor. “One of the reasons I was involved was the idea that I was in this fascinating, on the edge, avant garde, extraordinary group of beings,” Wallace said. “Life was always exciting. We were free from the tedium of the world.”

And because, as Jennings puts it, Castaneda was a “control freak,” followers were often freed from the anxiety of decision-making. Some had more independence, but even Wallace and Bruce Wagner, both of whom were given a certain leeway, were sometimes, according to Wallace, required to have their writing vetted by Donner-Grau. Jennings and Wallace also report that Castaneda directed the inner circle’s sex lives in great detail.

The most difficult part, Wallace believes, was that you never knew where you stood. “He’d pick someone, crown them, and was as capable of kicking them out in 48 hours as keeping them 10 years. You never knew. So there was always trepidation, a lot of jealousy.” Sometimes initiates were banished for obscure spiritual offenses, such as drinking cappuccino (which Castaneda himself guzzled in great quantities). They’d no longer be invited to the compound. Phone calls wouldn’t be returned. Having been allowed for a time into a secret, magical family, they’d be abruptly cut off. For some, Wallace believes, this pattern was highly traumatic. “In a weird way,” she said, “the worst thing that can happen is when you’re loved and loved and then abused and abused, and there are no rules, and the rules keep changing, and you can never do right, but then all of a sudden they’re kissing you. That’s the most crazy-making behavioral modification there is. And that’s what Carlos specialized in; he was not stupid.”

Whether disciples were allowed to stay or forced to leave seems often to have depended on the whims of a woman known as the Blue Scout. [....]

Ellen

Ellen,

Thanks. I linked to the same article in first post. But at that time I hadn't read more than 10% of it. I found Greg's name and involvement with CC and went straight to the source (Greg). Somewhat disappointed with Greg objectivity about CC at this point. But he has a lot of people to answer to besides this forum. Understandable. Thanks for highlighting this. I plan to research more this weekend. The work week has been busy.

-Mike E

[moralist]

Greg,

I'm curious about what type of equipment you used to record Castaneda. Did you use any special cameras, lenses, film or sound equipment?

J

Analog VHS tape cassette camera, no lenses, not close enough to get sound. Remember this was back in 1996-8.

Greg

Ah, I see. You were only shooting video. I was assuming that you might have also shot still-frame photos with a long lens and maybe used sensitive audio mics to pick up sound from a distance.

J

Nah, it was all low tech amateur, like climbing onto the roofs of buildings to film. Our prime directive was for Carlos never to find out what we had done. He lived and died never knowing. The project netted about 8 hours of video of Carlos and everyone who was associated with him at the time, including those mentioned in that Salon article.

Greg

[moralist]

Mike,

I found a Salon article which has information of the sort you're interested in.

It's a long article. Scroll down to get to material about the control techniques.

Greg and his wife appear somewhat before this part.

link

Although she was later devastated when Castaneda banished her from the Sunday sessions, telling her “the spirits spit you out,” she eventually recovered, and now remembers this as the most exciting time of her life. According to all who knew him, Castaneda wasn’t only mesmerizing, he also had a great sense of humor. “One of the reasons I was involved was the idea that I was in this fascinating, on the edge, avant garde, extraordinary group of beings,” Wallace said. “Life was always exciting. We were free from the tedium of the world.”

And because, as Jennings puts it, Castaneda was a “control freak,” followers were often freed from the anxiety of decision-making. Some had more independence, but even Wallace and Bruce Wagner, both of whom were given a certain leeway, were sometimes, according to Wallace, required to have their writing vetted by Donner-Grau. Jennings and Wallace also report that Castaneda directed the inner circle’s sex lives in great detail.

The most difficult part, Wallace believes, was that you never knew where you stood. “He’d pick someone, crown them, and was as capable of kicking them out in 48 hours as keeping them 10 years. You never knew. So there was always trepidation, a lot of jealousy.” Sometimes initiates were banished for obscure spiritual offenses, such as drinking cappuccino (which Castaneda himself guzzled in great quantities). They’d no longer be invited to the compound. Phone calls wouldn’t be returned. Having been allowed for a time into a secret, magical family, they’d be abruptly cut off. For some, Wallace believes, this pattern was highly traumatic. “In a weird way,” she said, “the worst thing that can happen is when you’re loved and loved and then abused and abused, and there are no rules, and the rules keep changing, and you can never do right, but then all of a sudden they’re kissing you. That’s the most crazy-making behavioral modification there is. And that’s what Carlos specialized in; he was not stupid.”

Whether disciples were allowed to stay or forced to leave seems often to have depended on the whims of a woman known as the Blue Scout. [....]

Ellen

Ellen,

Thanks. I linked to the same article in first post. But at that time I hadn't read more than 10% of it. I found Greg's name and involvement with CC and went straight to the source (Greg). Somewhat disappointed with Greg objectivity about CC at this point. But he has a lot of people to answer to besides this forum. Understandable. Thanks for highlighting this. I plan to research more this weekend. The work week has been busy.

-Mike E

It's ok for you to be disappointed, because it's a good indicator that I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Just realize that your opinion is being formed, not by your own direct personal experience, but by reading what was written third hand by others years after the fact, and by some of whom had never even met Carlos.

Sooner or later in your search you'll come across some unflattering things said about my wife and I. Realize that many of the Castaneda fans hated our guts when they found out what we had done. What was left of his cult tried to haul us into court to confiscate our video. It was a bluff that didn't get anywhere because they had no legal standing.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

Greg,

The second post here quotes you at some length. Are you being quoted accurately, as you recall?

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

Carlos' bait was entertainment and a charismatic personality. He easily could of had his own late night television talk show, because he was actually that good.

I doubt that.

It's ok for you to doubt, because I actually knew him personally and you did not.

Greg

It's not okay for you to doubt because you knew him personally?

--Brant

[moralist]

Greg,

The second post here quotes you at some length. Are you being quoted accurately, as you recall?

Ellen

That's pretty accurate.. It was an interview I gave not too long after I had first met Carlos.

The phrase you bolded about Zen is accurate. Many years ago I read a book on how to do Zen meditation and practiced sitting for a long time. The exercise itself has nothing to do with religion. It's a practical effective time tested approach to calmly observe thoughts and emotions.

Greg

[moralist]

Carlos' bait was entertainment and a charismatic personality. He easily could of had his own late night television talk show, because he was actually that good.

I doubt that.

It's ok for you to doubt, because I actually knew him personally and you did not.

Greg

It's not okay for you to doubt because you knew him personally?

--Brant

Actually meeting someone face to face is different than never having met someone face to face.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

Greg,

The second post here quotes you at some length. Are you being quoted accurately, as you recall?

Ellen

That's pretty accurate.. It was an interview I gave not too long after I had first met Carlos.

When did you first meet Castaneda? According to the linked post it was "before the name 'Tensegrity' was adopted."

The phrase you bolded about Zen is accurate. Many years ago I read a book on how to do Zen meditation and practiced sitting for a long time. The exercise itself has nothing to do with religion. It's a practical effective time tested approach to calmly observe thoughts and emotions.

Greg

I didn't bold anything on the linked page. The bolding was done by whoever made the post.

Incidentally, on looking further into the situation with Casteneda and UCLA, I've concluded that it isn't useful in the context - one pertaining to climate-alarmism - where I was thinking it might serve as a parallel. The Casteneda situation is too messy. Using it might backfire instead of helping.

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

This thread is sort of interesting; Casteneda is not, at least to me, except as a very good fiction writer liar who was in bloom four decades ago then pretty much evaporated. If you want bullshit cultural anthropology for educational purposes, study Margaret Mead. Studying Casteneda that way is only studying the credibility of the UCLA doctoral programs in the "soft sciences."

--Brant

Coming of Age in Samoa, my posterior

[moralist]

Greg,

The second post here quotes you at some length. Are you being quoted accurately, as you recall?

Ellen

That's pretty accurate.. It was an interview I gave not too long after I had first met Carlos.

When did you first meet Castaneda? According to the linked post it was "before the name 'Tensegrity' was adopted."

The phrase you bolded about Zen is accurate. Many years ago I read a book on how to do Zen meditation and practiced sitting for a long time. The exercise itself has nothing to do with religion. It's a practical effective time tested approach to calmly observe thoughts and emotions.

Greg

I didn't bold anything on the linked page. The bolding was done by whoever made the post.

Incidentally, on looking further into the situation with Casteneda and UCLA, I've concluded that it isn't useful in the context - one pertaining to climate-alarmism - where I was thinking it might serve as a parallel. The Casteneda situation is too messy. Using it might backfire instead of helping.

Ellen

I understand about the messy. Carlos was sort of like an earthquake, the closer you were to the epicenter, the greater the damage.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

This thread is sort of interesting; Casteneda is not, at least to me, except as a very good fiction writer liar who was in bloom four decades ago then pretty much evaporated. If you want bullshit cultural anthropology for educational purposes, study Margaret Mead. Studying Casteneda that way is only studying the credibility of the UCLA doctoral programs in the "soft sciences."

--Brant

Coming of Age in Samoa, my posterior

Academic politics, not "bullshit cultural anthropology," is the context in which I was thinking the Castaneda case might be a useful parallel.

I do find Castaneda himself interesting. Also the parallels to Objectivist/ish world dynamics.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Greg,

Possibly you didn't notice this question:

When did you first meet Castaneda? According to the linked post [second quote down here] it was "before the name 'Tensegrity' was adopted."

Ellen