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Greg: You do believe that evolution played a part, am I right? Man didn't leave his Creator's brow fully formed, some thousand years ago, don't you agree?

iow, whatever wonder of nature you can mention, such as those disputed x miles of man's DNA, loses much impact as your central argument.

But I can see how persuasive it may be that an omnipotent Being preconceived of and designed all that we are and observe right now. And an omnipotent God would have designed evolution, too - going along with this.

Spinoza hedged his bets somewhat, but I admire and sympathize with his intent, when he wrote: "By God's direction, I mean the fixed and unchanging order of Nature - it is the same thing whether we say that all things happen according to Nature's laws, or that they are regulated by God's decree and direction."

I can respect his courageous attempt to integrate reason and existence with the rest of it .

Therefore, comparing the omnipotent Designer to the Big Bang hypotheses, Creationism could be attractive, and for many not much less feasible, I could imagine.

But what is truly alien, actually repugnant, is the concept of an omnipresent God.

Men are forever stuck with God as the invader of their consciousness. Supreme moralist, witness and Judge; jealous or loving (whichever one picks).

The Intelligent Design debate for me seems something of a red herring: I think epistemology largely fails when there's no hard 'proof' either way. However, an "omnipresent God" - the invention of men, after all- can't ever be acceptable to reason.

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And those "big numbers" are honest truthfully accurate rational descriptions of physical reality.

The length you gave might be accurate, but so what?

Ellen... I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being that jaded.

I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being wowed by a contextless number.

Suppose the base pairs of the DNA in the "average" adult blue whale's body were strung out - would you take that as even more convincing evidence of God at work?

What about the hydrogen atoms in an "average" star strung as if on a thread?

Ellen

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And those "big numbers" are honest truthfully accurate rational descriptions of physical reality.

The length you gave might be accurate, but so what?

Ellen... I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being that jaded.

I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being wowed by a contextless number.

Suppose the base pairs of the DNA in the "average" adult blue whale's body were strung out - would you take that as even more convincing evidence of God at work?

What about the hydrogen atoms in an "average" star strung as if on a thread?

Ellen

My understanding is that the DNA in the smallest organism is incredibly complex coding. A star is only a little more complex than any conglomeration of inanimate material. So, how did nature get from inanimate material to DNA? That's the question. As for the actual number and its context--27 billion miles--Greg deigns not to reference it, at least so far. It seems Greg actually knows less about this than I do; I don't know much to say the least, but at least I don't throw myself on "God" as an authority to displace my ignorance and as a tool in ratiocination.

--Brant

~glory~ !!

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And those "big numbers" are honest truthfully accurate rational descriptions of physical reality.

The length you gave might be accurate, but so what?

Ellen... I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being that jaded.

I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being wowed by a contextless number.

Suppose the base pairs of the DNA in the "average" adult blue whale's body were strung out - would you take that as even more convincing evidence of God at work?

What about the hydrogen atoms in an "average" star strung as if on a thread?

Ellen

Well, you've just clarified the difference between each of our views, Ellen.

While we are both contemplating exactly the same physical fact, my reaction is awe and gratitude for the infinite wisdom behind of the gift of life, and your reaction is a jaded yawn and a shrug that it's just dumb random chance. Our two completely different reactions demonstrates the principle that each of our views was previously chosen, and that physical evidence is totally powerless to change a view once chosen. Only a genuine life altering experience could ever cause a person to change their view. So we each will live and die with what we chose as we each deserve.

Greg

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Uh, Greg, you're powerless to visit faith upon Ellen. That's the crux. You neither elevate her "view" nor lower yours achieving any equivalency. There is none nor is any possible. It's rational or irrational. Reason or faith. In both cases yours is the latter position while stolen-conceptizing the former. I wonder if Ellen understands she's actually sanctioning your efforts.

--Brant

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Greg: You do believe that evolution played a part, am I right?

In my opinion, yes. The process of evolution unfolds according to the specific orderly design of previously existing laws which govern it.

In terms of morality, while it appears that the world is generally devolving, this is not necessarily the case. This world is actually two worlds, Paradise and hell, which are all swirled around each other like water and oil, but without actually combining... and each of us is on a journey to one world or the other.

And whenever things in general get to stinking too much, the toilet gets flushed. Ayn Rand did a pretty thorough job of describing the America's Apocalypse, as well as describing how Americans will be safe in Galt's Gulch when it happens.

Greg

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Greg is like the little drummer boy. He has this mental image of Jesus smiling on him. You guys are hopeless arguing with him. Like arguing with an insect.

"Arguing with him" is not what I'm about. If he and I were having a private conversation on and about these matters, I would have disengaged long ago, but he has to be dealt with in such a public forum like OL. It's only a matter of how he is dealt with. Ignoring him completely is one way. Not my choice.

--Brant

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Greg: You do believe that evolution played a part, am I right?

In my opinion, yes. The process of evolution unfolds according to the specific orderly design of previously existing laws which govern it.

In terms of morality, while it appears that the world is generally devolving, this is not necessarily the case. This world is actually two worlds, Paradise and hell, which are all swirled around each other like water and oil, but without actually combining... and each of us is on a journey to one world or the other.

And whenever things in general get to stinking too much, the toilet gets flushed. Ayn Rand did a pretty thorough job of describing the America's Apocalypse, as well as describing how Americans will be safe in Galt's Gulch when it happens.

Greg

Oh, great. Now I'm going to hell, too?

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Uh, Greg, you're powerless to visit faith upon Ellen.

I actually didn't, Brant.

I merely noted that each of our two completely different responses to exactly the same information are the result of each of us having previously chosen a different view.

Greg

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Greg: You do believe that evolution played a part, am I right?

In my opinion, yes. The process of evolution unfolds according to the specific orderly design of previously existing laws which govern it.

In terms of morality, while it appears that the world is generally devolving, this is not necessarily the case. This world is actually two worlds, Paradise and hell, which are all swirled around each other like water and oil, but without actually combining... and each of us is on a journey to one world or the other.

And whenever things in general get to stinking too much, the toilet gets flushed. Ayn Rand did a pretty thorough job of describing the America's Apocalypse, as well as describing how Americans will be safe in Galt's Gulch when it happens.

Greg

Oh, great. Now I'm going to hell, too?

How should I know? You should know because you're the one who gets the consequences of your own actions. It's totally up to you. You're on your own. Just as I set into motion the consequences of my own actions which have absolutely nothing to do with you.

Greg

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Like a blind man in the land of the sighted, Greg seems to see a reality of light and darkness with no colors or shades.

A...

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Me, I've got this thing about Conviction. I understand, I take it as given, where religious folk in all their variations are coming from -and we agree to disagree, nearly always. Nothing gets too heated. But what I respect in them is that they are able to hold convictions.

Love it! even if I think (know) they are wrong.

But God preserve me from secular skeptics who won't commit to one firm idea. (Except the firm idea that nothing is firm).;}

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And those "big numbers" are honest truthfully accurate rational descriptions of physical reality.

The length you gave might be accurate, but so what?

Ellen... I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being that jaded.

I believe that no matter how hard I tried, I could never come close to being wowed by a contextless number.

Suppose the base pairs of the DNA in the "average" adult blue whale's body were strung out - would you take that as even more convincing evidence of God at work?

What about the hydrogen atoms in an "average" star strung as if on a thread?

Ellen

My understanding is that the DNA in the smallest organism is incredibly complex coding.

Yes. It's terabytes of well ordered rational coherent information which govern specific forms and functions necessary for physical life.

See?

Two completely different responses to exactly the same information.

Greg

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Like a blind man in the land of the sighted, Greg seems to see a reality of light and darkness with no colors or shades.

A...

Like Al Gore on climate change, the Stalker takes every possible outcome on every subject as proof of his theories -- all outcomes confirm his theories, none refute them.

J

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And this, MSK, is why some of us take issue with Greg. You see him as a "live and let live" kind of guy, and that is the kind of philosophy he seems to follow on the surface. Underpinning that, however, is a disconcerting smugness that thus far has only been an annoyance, at least for me. He says in one breath, yes of course it's a lovely world where we all have our own views. In the next breath he says something about just desserts that implies he really has no tolerance at all for anyone's view but his own. Finally, in this thread, he shows his true character. In his view, there's an eternal lake of fire and brimstone reserved for those who do not agree with him. That is most definitely not a live and let live philosophy.

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Uh, Greg, you're powerless to visit faith upon Ellen.

I actually didn't, Brant.

I merely noted that each of our two completely different responses to exactly the same information are the result of each of us having previously chosen a different view.

Greg

Stalker,

The fact that you have a previously chosen view, and that no evidence will change your mind, is not proof that all others have the same mentality. Repeating your stupid theory about "previously chosen views" a million more times won't make it true.

J

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Good actor.

Good movie.

It answers my argument about how you perceive reality...how?

Life is not a movie dude...you try that with some folks that I have known and you would never been found and if you had been found, using another quote from a movie, "they'll need dental records to identify your body."

Again, life is not a movie.

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In the next breath he says something about just desserts that implies he really has no tolerance at all for anyone's view but his own.

That's odd... Confusing agreement with tolerance is generally what liberals do.

Finally, in this thread, he shows his true character. In his view, there's an eternal lake of fire and brimstone reserved for those who do not agree with him. That is most definitely not a live and let live philosophy.

I didn't invoke that image, that's your own not mine. Paradise and hell are not nearly that melodramatic.

Paradise is simply happy grateful people going about their business of living productive meaning-filled lives.

Whereas hell is just perpetually emotionally offended victims angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) others.

I have no problem with your choice to disagree with Ayn Rand's dead-on accurate prescience on the fate of America even as it unfolds all around you right here and now.

If you see the coming flood you build an ark because it's simple rational logical common sense.

Don't see a flood coming? Ok with me. Don't build one.

Greg

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Good actor.

Good movie.

It answers my argument about how you perceive reality...how?

Life is not a movie dude...you try that with some folks that I have known and you would never been found and if you had been found, using another quote from a movie, "they'll need dental records to identify your body."

Again, life is not a movie.

Lighten up. That was meant as humor. :wink:

Greg

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Good actor.

Good movie.

It answers my argument about how you perceive reality...how?

Life is not a movie dude...you try that with some folks that I have known and you would never been found and if you had been found, using another quote from a movie, "they'll need dental records to identify your body."

Again, life is not a movie.

Lighten up. That was meant as humor. :wink:

If you want to see Walken on his game, you just have to see the movie "Envy".

Greg

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