Why did people vote for Obama the 2nd time?

[moralist]

[...] the Christian Church had degenerated into a feminized liberal feel good self esteem Barney the Dinosaur club designed to make people feel comfortable in their moral weakness.

Yeah, the good old days of torture chambers and (literal) burning of heretics had gone out of fashion.

Ellen

That's silly, Ellen. Why behave as if that was the only alternative when it obviously isn't?

[moralist]

Reality is a conglomeration of facts--all facts, known and unknown.

I see that differently, in that reality is the constant flow of events originating in the present and disappearing into the past.

[Brant Gaede]

Reality is a conglomeration of facts--all facts, known and unknown.

I see that differently, in that reality is the constant flow of events originating in the present and disappearing into the past.

You just made a factual statement?

--Brant

reality is a reality in motion

[Selene]

[...] the Christian Church had degenerated into a feminized liberal feel good self esteem Barney the Dinosaur club designed to make people feel comfortable in their moral weakness.

Yeah, the good old days of torture chambers and (literal) burning of heretics had gone out of fashion.

Ellen

That's silly, Ellen. Why behave as if that was the only alternative when it obviously isn't?

Just as "silly" as when you selectively distort only one possible outcome for an individual citizen who purchases insurance?

Incidentally, do you purchase automobile liability insurance?

A...

[Ellen Stuttle]

[...] the Christian Church had degenerated into a feminized liberal feel good self esteem Barney the Dinosaur club designed to make people feel comfortable in their moral weakness.

Yeah, the good old days of torture chambers and (literal) burning of heretics had gone out of fashion.

Ellen

That's silly, Ellen. Why behave as if that was the only alternative when it obviously isn't?

Why did you behave as if the reason you gave was the reason why Rand became negative toward Christianity?

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen: Indeed, it's useful to know that Rand's time-line matters. Apparently, it follows her personal evolution away from Nietzchean egoism.

Independence "one's acceptance of the responsibility of forming one's own judgments and of living by the work of one's own mind" becomes a virtue. Rationality, of course, is "man's basic virtue". [VOS, 1961] Reason supplants independence, as primary of the three cardinal values. Otherwise, not much changes that I see. Reason (the value) depends upon volition and independence of mind (the virtue), surely?

Rand merely re-shuffled the deck, I think (and I don't think she would completely discount her earlier Dudley letter, which is quite "wonderful".)

I don't think that Rand "merely re-shuffled the deck." Instead, that she made significant changes in how she thought of "the deck," including developing her view of "volitional consciousness," according to which subscribing to any form of what she (embracingly) called "mysticism" means that one isn't making the choice of activating properly human consciousness.

The Journals material from Rand's discontinued "The Moral Basis of Individualism" includes editorial comments indicating changes in process in Rand's thinking. Unfortunately, since a suspicion of tampering clouds the Journals material, we can't tell if the actual changes might have been even larger than the acknowledged ones.

Ellen

[anthony]

Ellen: Indeed, it's useful to know that Rand's time-line matters. Apparently, it follows her personal evolution away from Nietzchean egoism.

Independence "one's acceptance of the responsibility of forming one's own judgments and of living by the work of one's own mind" becomes a virtue. Rationality, of course, is "man's basic virtue". [VOS, 1961] Reason supplants independence, as primary of the three cardinal values. Otherwise, not much changes that I see. Reason (the value) depends upon volition and independence of mind (the virtue), surely?

Rand merely re-shuffled the deck, I think (and I don't think she would completely discount her earlier Dudley letter, which is quite "wonderful".)

I don't think that Rand "merely re-shuffled the deck." Instead, that she made significant changes in how she thought of "the deck," including developing her view of "volitional consciousness," according to which subscribing to any form of what she (embracingly) called "mysticism" means that one isn't making the choice of activating properly human consciousness.

Ellen

I'm sure you are quite right. A lame attempt at humor on my part. Even so, to return to the original point, I have the conviction that her 'relegation' of independence to lesser status to reason/rationality should be seen in the light of ~not~ in the least, undermining or diminishing egoism-independence, but rather of placing reason at ultimate spot in an expanded conceptual hierarchy.

Her "deck" got bigger - if this makes any sense.

[Brant Gaede]

All the Ayn Rand material published since her death with the possible exception of Philosophy, Who Needs It, is the worst kind of second-hand garbage imaginable. This includes all that philosophical conversation tacked onto Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

--Brant

think "fraud"

[moralist]

Reality is a conglomeration of facts--all facts, known and unknown.

I see that differently, in that reality is the constant flow of events originating in the present and disappearing into the past.

You just made a factual statement?

--Brant

reality is a reality in motion

Words are just descriptors. There's a difference between talking about doing and actually doing.

Greg

[Selene]

Greg:

Do you purchase automobile liability insurance?

A...

[Brant Gaede]

Reality is a conglomeration of facts--all facts, known and unknown.

I see that differently, in that reality is the constant flow of events originating in the present and disappearing into the past.

You just made a factual statement?

--Brant

reality is a reality in motion

Words are just descriptors. There's a difference between talking about doing and actually doing.

Greg

Slip sliding away, slip sliding away. The closer I get to my destination, the more you slip slide away.

--Brant

I was a man, a damn fine man--then I met a pussy, now what a mess I am!

[moralist]

Reality is a conglomeration of facts--all facts, known and unknown.

I see that differently, in that reality is the constant flow of events originating in the present and disappearing into the past.

You just made a factual statement?

--Brant

reality is a reality in motion

Words are just descriptors. There's a difference between talking about doing and actually doing.

Greg

Slip sliding away, slip siding away. The closer I get to my destination, the more you slip slide away.

--Brant

I was a man, a damn fine man--then I met a pussy, now what a mess I am!

Just because you can point at the moon with your finger, that doesn't make your finger the Moon.

(...and I'm not giving you the finger.)

Greg

[Mikee]

Greg,

Are you Greg Mamishian from Topanga Canyon who attended meetings for some time with Carlos Castaneda?

I apologize if you feel I've invaded your privacy, but I find your personality and point of view to be very unusual. And oddly familiar. I worked in the Pacific Palisades, Brentwood area in 1976-77 and got up to Topanga Canyon a couple of times. I may have met someone that you remind me of. I don't have a great memory for detail however. I worked in a lot of houses, some quite expensive, installing and repairing alarm systems. Met a lot of very interesting people. I found I couldn't stay long in that area. People just seemed too loose, slow moving. I wanted to get back to the bay area where there was just more energy. Anyway, I checked your name and did a search, first for your name origin (helps to know a persons' heritage if you want to understand them). Nothing. But tons of activity on forums. And it appears you've been interviewed more than once by writers interested in Carlos Castaneda. That would be a fascinating story if you'd care to tell it, particularly your transition to Christianity and your belief in God.

[moralist]

Greg,

Are you Greg Mamishian from Topanga Canyon who attended meetings for some time with Carlos Castaneda?

I apologize if you feel I've invaded your privacy, but I find your personality and point of view to be very unusual. And oddly familiar. I worked in the Pacific Palisades, Brentwood area in 1976-77 and got up to Topanga Canyon a couple of times. I may have met someone that you remind me of. I don't have a great memory for detail however. I worked in a lot of houses, some quite expensive, installing and repairing alarm systems. Met a lot of very interesting people. I found I couldn't stay long in that area. People just seemed too loose, slow moving. I wanted to get back to the bay area where there was just more energy. Anyway, I checked your name and did a search, first for your name origin (helps to know a persons' heritage if you want to understand them). Nothing. But tons of activity on forums. And it appears you've been interviewed more than once by writers interested in Carlos Castaneda. That would be a fascinating story if you'd care to tell it, particularly your transition to Christianity and your belief in God.

Yes, I am, Mike.

And no, I don't consider it an invasion at all, because everything on the internet is already public.

As well as writers' interviews, the BBC also came here and filmed a one hour documentary in which my wife and I were involved. It was called "Tales from the Jungle Carlos Castaneda". I believe you can still find it on YouTube. My wife also wrote a book called "Filming Castaneda", as we secretly filmed Carlos in the last year of his life, and he died never knowing what we had done. It's the only existing video of him in the world.

This is going to go way off topic, (and possibly outside the parameters of this forum), so, if you don't mind, could you copy your post and begin a thread in a section where you think it might be the most appropriate, and I'll be happy to tell you about anything you want to know.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I still find it hard to believe UCLA gave Carlos Castenada a PhD with his first book--I think it was Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge--accepted as the dissertation. He was an excellent and quite readable writer, however, who was more interested in his story-telling than cultural anthropology. Nathaniel Branden's wife Patricia was quite taken with his work, Nathaniel not so much. I read almost all of his books way back then, it had a lot to do with my growing up in the southwest and my very superficial and slight knowledge of the Yaqui Indians, but the time-shifting in Mexico City in the last book I read was too much for me. All I can say is those were the 1970s. Long gone with Carlos.

--Brant

I didn't go to Woodstock and never cared that I missed it

[PDS]

Greg,

Are you Greg Mamishian from Topanga Canyon who attended meetings for some time with Carlos Castaneda?

I apologize if you feel I've invaded your privacy, but I find your personality and point of view to be very unusual. And oddly familiar. I worked in the Pacific Palisades, Brentwood area in 1976-77 and got up to Topanga Canyon a couple of times. I may have met someone that you remind me of. I don't have a great memory for detail however. I worked in a lot of houses, some quite expensive, installing and repairing alarm systems. Met a lot of very interesting people. I found I couldn't stay long in that area. People just seemed too loose, slow moving. I wanted to get back to the bay area where there was just more energy. Anyway, I checked your name and did a search, first for your name origin (helps to know a persons' heritage if you want to understand them). Nothing. But tons of activity on forums. And it appears you've been interviewed more than once by writers interested in Carlos Castaneda. That would be a fascinating story if you'd care to tell it, particularly your transition to Christianity and your belief in God.

Yes, I am, Mike.

And no, I don't consider it an invasion at all, because everything on the internet is already public.

As well as writers' interviews, the BBC also came here and filmed a one hour documentary in which my wife and I were involved. It was called "Tales from the Jungle Carlos Castaneda". I believe you can still find it on YouTube. My wife also wrote a book called "Filming Castaneda", as we secretly filmed Carlos in the last year of his life, and he died never knowing what we had done. It's the only existing video of him in the world.

This is going to go way off topic, (and possibly outside the parameters of this forum), so, if you don't mind, could you copy your post and begin a thread in a section where you think it might be the most appropriate, and I'll be happy to tell you about anything you want to know.

Greg

Damn, life is interesting sometimes.

[KacyRay]

MSK - I will read your references before commenting on the substantive issues you mentioned... but I assure you that any "sneering, scorn and sarcasm" on my part is said in a spirit of good fun, not in malice. The only one I take issue with here personally is RB, and that's because of a long history. I know - no one here is interested in any of that.

Selene - I don't claim to be an Objectivist. I am informed by Rand's teachings, and as I've done with all teachers, I've run her teachings through the filter of my critical mind. I've dispensed with some teachings, I've embraced others, and I don't consider that process complete, ever. But I don't consider any one persons teachings or ideas to be the end-all be-all of human knowledge.

Still, it is a bit presumptuous of you to assume what my motives for not voting are. I would just remind you that I have no duty or obligation to do so, neither do I have a duty or obligation to justify my decisions. You can be suspicious all you want, but I am pretty confident that your suspicion is more of a product of the fact that you and I disagree on many issues than it is my abstinence from voting. I suspect you would find me suspicious whether I voted or not.

"Since I have always been a political being, animal [leave that one open for your cutting wit] and citizen, the idea of not voting is dissonant to my mind.

I have written in Atlas characters, particularly in judicial races, where a slate of judicial candidates appears on all the ballot lines."

I understand. And I appreciate that you recognize that the dissonance you feel is in your mind.

Did you ever see the South Park episode where there was an election, and the only two candidates were a douchbag and a shit sandwich? One of the kids decided not to vote and was derided for it by everyone until he finally relented... then when he did vote, everyone derided him for voting for the wrong candidate. It was pretty funny... but that's about how I feel when it comes to elections these days. Unlike the South Park character, I won't be brow-beaten into voting for someone I don't support.

And writing in fictional characters seems pretty silly to me. I could be spending that time doing something more productive like... just about anything.

[Selene]

KacyRay:

Still, it is a bit presumptuous of you to assume what my motives for not voting are. I would just remind you that I have no duty or obligation to do so, neither do I have a duty or obligation to justify my decisions. You can be suspicious all you want, but I am pretty confident that your suspicion is more of a product of the fact that you and I disagree on many issues than it is my abstinence from voting. I suspect you would find me suspicious whether I voted or not.

I disagree with every point you assert above.

I posited a reason as to why you did not vote. There was no presumptuousness in that act.

There is no duty, or, obligation to vote.

Another technique is to submit a blank ballot with "None of the above are acceptable to me" and sign the ballot.

I understand. And I appreciate that you recognize that the dissonance you feel is in your mind.

I assumed you would appreciate and recognize my clearly stated position.

Finally, I can vehemently disagree with a persons positions. Their positions have nothing to do with whether I like them personally, or, not.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

MSK - I will read your references before commenting on the substantive issues you mentioned... but I assure you that any "sneering, scorn and sarcasm" on my part is said in a spirit of good fun, not in malice.

Kacy,

Just stay away from my possum huntin' and moonshine stills...

Michael

[KacyRay]

Will do!

[Peter]

Michael wrote:

One way to detect them without even thinking is to watch the comedians that are on the Obama side slowly turn.

end quote

This topic has died but I am curious to see what someone else thinks about the outcome of the last election.

I noticed that some people may have thought that Obama was a better candidate than Romney. That could be true.

Both candidates endorsed government supplied health insurance - so does anyone think Romney would have actually rolled out his version of an Affordable Care Act or that it would have been a computerized fiasco? I don’t think either would have happened, but that is hindsight.

There is little doubt that Romney would have NEVER lied to the American people. That is not in his nature, nor is socialism. Businessman Mitt would have done things differently. He would not have racked up the debt for instance.

Mitt would NOT have been duplicitous about his support of Freedom, Israel, or our constitution. Are we better off now because Mitt was NOT elected? How say you?

[Selene]

Pete:

You know that a State imposition of law is qualified under the "comity" concept/understanding of the US Constitution.

It is radically different from "forcing," "under color of law," a statute, that unconstitutionally violates individual rights, despite the morally/ethically/substantively/philosophically deciding vote, "at the eleventh hour," that has all individual citizens of the US subject to tyranny.

Now there is a question begging statement!

Both candidates endorsed government supplied health insurance - so does anyone think Romney would have actually rolled out his version of an Affordable Care Act or that it would have been a computerized fiasco? I don’t think either would have happened, but that is hindsight.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Peter,

It's all speculation, but Romney sure made a holy mess out of the get out the vote computer thing during the election. I think it was called Orca.

That was just about as disastrous as the Obamacare website.

I don't think any of them know how to make government bureaucrats run large complicated computer programs without the military.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Peter,

It's all speculation, but Romney sure made a holy mess out of the get out the vote computer thing during the election. I think it was called Orca.

That was just about as disastrous as the Obamacare website.

I don't think any of them know how to make government bureaucrats run large complicated computer programs without the military.

Michael

It also did not help that Romney is a schmuck. If I ever had to give an example to illustrate the Yiddish phrase Goyische Kopf, Romney would be my example.

Ba'al Chatzaf