White House knew millions couldn't keep health plans

[caroljane]

The seminal issue presented was that the government's aim was to destroy private practitioners. That this would destroy quality of service is your deduction. Presumably many of the private practitioners become part of the public system,so this implies that that doctors and nurses etc become universally less skilled and diligent when being paid differently. It's a theory, I guess.

It doesn't mean that doctors and nurses become less skilled or diligent. That is your theory.

What many people don't fully understand is that the price system is necessary for the effective and efficient deployment of resources. It doesn't matter how motivated some people might be to work hard under a socialistic system, such a system can't function efficiently because of the absence of a price system to provide people with information about how to deploy resources effectively.

In the linked video, Milton Friedman explains the price system using an example of the manufacture of a pencil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU

Darrell

[caroljane]

It is not my theory but that implied by Adam. I don't agree with it.

The treatment of the ill is not the same business as the manufacture of pencils. That was somewhat my, er, point. No one ever died for want of a pencil that I know of.

[Darrell Hougen]

It is not my theory but that implied by Adam. I don't agree with it.

The treatment of the ill is not the same business as the manufacture of pencils. That was somewhat my, er, point. No one ever died for want of a pencil that I know of.

The difference between the practice of medicine and the manufacture of a pencil is that the former is much more complex and much more dependent on the price system to function effectively.

Darrell

Edit: I don't think Adam meant to imply the theory that you're attributing to him.

[Selene]

How about David Frum

It is not my theory but that implied by Adam. I don't agree with it.

The treatment of the ill is not the same business as the manufacture of pencils. That was somewhat my, er, point. No one ever died for want of a pencil that I know of.

Except the guy who rushed into the Emergency Room short of beath and was further stressed when Universal Affordable Care Employee who would not admit the man without an original signature, rules are rules citizen.

He died looking through his work clothes for his pencil that he used on his carpenter job.

The "Nurse" could not provide a pencil, or, a pen because the shipment was late because of a local bridge that washed out two days ago because the small business that was contracted to fix the bridge by shoring it up never got their delivery, etc. etc.

So you are wrong that noone ever died from want of a pencil.

Hmmm, now why does that sound familiar...???

Ah...

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail_%28proverb%29

[caroljane]

I thought it was the My Kingdom for a Horse you would bring up, but I was prepared for the Nail.

The competence of the medical pros who do or do not get to treat patients is still the question, as I understand your original argument. \Assuming there is no bureaucracy involved in private practice now, No HMOs or anything like that.

[Selene]

I thought it was the My Kingdom for a Horse you would bring up, but I was prepared for the Nail.

The competence of the medical pros who do or do not get to treat patients is still the question, as I understand your original argument. \Assuming there is no bureaucracy involved in private practice now, No HMOs or anything like that.

Quality doctors will still be in the system. However, when it becomes unprofitable to keep their office profitable they will:

1) Retire, treat people individually as a health consultant. They now have access to incredible technology at the diagnostic end.

One drop of blood can now take the place, as a diagnostic tool that would take 10 + medical tests. It effectively cuts a significant savings, could be established off shore and reduce costs by as much as 70%;

2) Retire and play golf;

3) Retire and move out of the United States;

4) Downsize his office and take less time with a patient until her working too many hours;

5) The brain drain will begin in the Doctor field. Would you go through ten years of school and training with a capped salary? Any fool can see where this is going.

Again, this will take decades.

A...

[Brant Gaede]

You answered my question, sort of, implying it has not happened yet.

I think you underestimate the resourcefuslness of human beings. We are more than just the pawns of an economic system.

Carol,

There may never be a catastrophe. As you say, humans are very resourceful. The question is, why do we have to be resourceful when it comes to getting around the roadblocks placed by our own government? Why is the government placing them in the first place?

There may never be a catastrophe, but at the margins, some people may not survive. The former head of the National Health Service in Great Britain died waiting for an operation. Tell me that's not irony.

Darrell

She was what?

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

It is not my theory but that implied by Adam. I don't agree with it.

The treatment of the ill is not the same business as the manufacture of pencils. That was somewhat my, er, point. No one ever died for want of a pencil that I know of.

"For want of a nail . . . ."

Why not a pencil?

--Brant

nothing is the same as the manufacture of pencils--or anything else: the means of production sans all economic else sounds vaguely, though superficially, Marxist

[moralist]

I know everything is really all about you, Moralist, but I was actually thinking about a few million other individuals.

Not just me. There are millions of other Americans who freely choose to assume the personal risk and responsibility for their own lives by simply paying their own healthcare bills with a health savings account, instead of depending on the complexities of the huge insurance bureaucracy to pay their bills for them. I tell you, it's infinitely easier to deal directly with healthcare providers from outside the convoluted insurance bureaucracy entirely, than from inside its twisted smelly bowels.

Greg

[moralist]

And this pitiful President, who lied about a key part of his "signature" program, let me see, how did it go:

"If you like your plan, you will keep your plan...period!"

Well, I like my "Galt's Gulch" plan, and I can keep it because it has NOTHING to do either with the insurance industry OR the government.

Greg

[moralist]

The seminal issue presented was that the government's aim was to destroy private practitioners. That this would destroy quality of service is your deduction. Presumably many of the private practitioners become part of the public system,so this implies that that doctors and nurses etc become universally less skilled and diligent when being paid differently. It's a theory, I guess.

It doesn't mean that doctors and nurses become less skilled or diligent. That is your theory.

What many people don't fully understand is that the price system is necessary for the effective and efficient deployment of resources. It doesn't matter how motivated some people might be to work hard under a socialistic system, such a system can't function efficiently because of the absence of a price system to provide people with information about how to deploy resources effectively.

In the linked video, Milton Friedman explains the price system using an example of the manufacture of a pencil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU

Darrell

That's a beaufitul story, Darrell.

Thanks for posting it.

He brings awareness to a fundamental moral principle that has the power to literally make this world Paradise for anyone who freely chooses to live by it.

Greg

[Darrell Hougen]

She was what?

--Brant

Hi Brant,

I guess she was a "non-executive" member of the board of directors. Sorry for the confusion. The article title described her as the Ex-NHS chief.

Still, I think it is ironic that a person of such stature died waiting for an operation. But, hey, it's fairer that way.

Darrell

[Brant Gaede]

She was what?

--Brant

Hi Brant,

I guess she was a "non-executive" member of the board of directors. Sorry for the confusion. The article title described her as the Ex-NHS chief.

Still, I think it is ironic that a person of such stature died waiting for an operation. But, hey, it's fairer that way.

Darrell

No stature and less status.

--Brant

[Selene]

And this pitiful President, who lied about a key part of his "signature" program, let me see, how did it go:

"If you like your plan, you will keep your plan...period!"

Well, I like my "Galt's Gulch" plan, and I can keep it because it has NOTHING to do either with the insurance industry OR the government.

Greg

Greg:

You do realize that you will have to pay the fine, or, purchase a plan...correct?

And there will come a point wherein the fine will exceed the cost of the policy...correct?

A,,,

[moralist]

And this pitiful President, who lied about a key part of his "signature" program, let me see, how did it go:

"If you like your plan, you will keep your plan...period!"

Well, I like my "Galt's Gulch" plan, and I can keep it because it has NOTHING to do either with the insurance industry OR the government.

Greg

Greg:

You do realize that you will have to pay the fine, or, purchase a plan...correct?

And there will come a point wherein the fine will exceed the cost of the policy...correct?

A,,,

Yes, I do.

And since no one can ever be forced to do what's morally wrong, because doing what's right is always a free choice...

...I'm happy to pay any fine solely on moral principle. And because both the government and I answer to exactly the same higher moral law which governs the objective reality of the consequences of our actions, I'll prevail because doing what's right always prevails over doing what's wrong.

Evil always eventually destroys itself... which it is presently in the process of doing so, as we speak...

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

Evil always eventually destroys itself... which it is presently in the process of doing so, as we speak...

Greg

Sometimes if helps if the Good Guys drop bombs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Evil always eventually destroys itself... which it is presently in the process of doing so, as we speak...

Greg

Sometimes if helps if the Good Guys drop bombs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

In an actual war, yes. However, in moral warfare, the only way for an individual to personally prevail over evil is to refuse to participate in it... even if everyone else does. This is because evil, like darkness, has no energy of its own. But is only a lack of light. In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist. Likewise in the presence of good, evil ceases to exist.

So if you ever see evil prevailing... it is only because it has not yet encountered that which is good.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Evil always eventually destroys itself... which it is presently in the process of doing so, as we speak...

Greg

Sometimes if helps if the Good Guys drop bombs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

In an actual war, yes. However, in moral warfare, the only way for an individual to personally prevail over evil is to refuse to participate in it... even if everyone else does. This is because evil, like darkness, has no energy of its own. But is only a lack of light. In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist. Likewise in the presence of good, evil ceases to exist.

So if you ever see evil prevailing... it is only because it has not yet encountered that which is good.

Greg

You're getting a little too facile here. I don't want to start throwing Nazis at you. I suspect you play a lot of moving the goalposts around.

--Brant

evil prevails by destroying; it doesn't need the sanction of the victim as much as it helps--for instance, enough sanction can give it a critical mass sufficient to roll over non-sanctioning innocents unless non-sanctioning also requires de-sanctioning (or anti-sanctioning a la Ayn Rand)

[Ellen Stuttle]

[...] evil, like darkness, has no energy of its own. But is only a lack of light.

privatio boni

Absence of good - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absence_of_good

The privation of good (Latin: privatio boni) is a theological doctrine that evil, unlike good, is insubstantial, so that thinking of it as an entity is misleading. Instead ...

Privatio Boni - Demons and devils - Monstrous.com

demons.monstrous.com/privatio_boni.htm

This site may harm your computer.

The orthodox tactic regarding the problem of evil was the privatio boni. Plato argued that evil was merely the privation of good, that it had no ontological status of ...

Satan, Evil, and Privatio Boni | Salt & Light - Community Ethics

communityethics.org/blog/?p=338

Jun 6, 2013 - When Christians are asked the question who is Satan we can often expect a variety of replies back. One of the most popular that I have heard ...

Privatio Boni Augustine argued that evil was in f | The Musings of ...

blogginbaldguy.wordpress.com/.../privatio-boni-augustine-argued-that-evil...

Aug 29, 2005 - Privatio BoniAugustine argued that evil was in fact privatio boni or the lack of good. Is evil the lack of good? To argue that evil is in fact a ...

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theologica.ning.com/xn/detail/2124612:Comment:392230?xg_source...

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privatio boni : The Amish Jihadist - The Other Journal

theotherjournal.com/amishjihadi/tag/privatio-boni/

Mar 19, 2012 - Evil is a privation, a lack of the good (privatio boni). It is not tangible. It is, as Augustine suggested,... Read More. Filed under Amish Jihad!, ...

Leithart.com | Privatio boni

www.leithart.com/archives/003146.php

Jul 10, 2007 - Milbank makes a couple of interesting points regarding the import of an Augustinian view of evil. 1) Augustine's view assumes the goodness of ...

The Freewill Defense (St. Augustine of Hippo) | That Religious ...

www.thatreligiousstudieswebsite.com/.../freewill_defense_augustine.php

Well, evil must now be understood as the privatio boni ('privation of good'), or that which occurs when a being renounces its proper role in the order and ...

In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist.

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow."

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

The absence of light does not exist nor does darkness. There is light or there is not--that is, we can say, the illumination of an object or objects by it. Darkness does nothing to any object for there is no metaphysical reality there. The "reality" is an epistemological shortcut only--one that fudges what science reveals. Science is the (epistemological) light that clarifies hoi polloi confusion. This confusion causes no harm if it's not imported into science by scientists and advocates of recycling, as commonly understood, and man-caused global warming.

"Good" and "evil" are labels for bottom-line destruction* and creation, respectively. The rest is embellishment.

--Brant

*there is, of course, "creative destruction" and therein creation--good--rules, but it rules not with, say, genocidal cleansing just because the genocidalists think so, for the initiation of force violates the metaphysical nature of human life and that is needed for creation; hence, the impotence of evil is creative impotence, it doesn't mean evil has no power only no power as such for it must latch onto what good it can within a person and ride that sanction, implicit or explicit, to its no-good ends. Good and evil is the potential built into every brain-normal human being and expressed in various ways to various extents which can be qualitative and quantitative ratios to each other: how big is this or that is the question (This is confusing for Objectivists for Rand liked to implicitly contend through her fiction that the good was in one person and evil in another respecting each with none or very little of the natural mixing up, so evil made Toohey go while Roark used the good exclusively.)

the essence of morality is free-willed choice, which is something of a redundancy, and character, the suppression of immorality within oneself trying to get out through the seduction of a seemingly easy way, hence integrity is the honoring of rational, critical thinking and conclusions without which it is not possible for high level functioning

[moralist]

.

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow."

Ellen

"And the Light shines on in the darkness,

for the darkness has never overpowered it."

(John 1:5)

Greg

[moralist]

Evil always eventually destroys itself... which it is presently in the process of doing so, as we speak...

Greg

Sometimes if helps if the Good Guys drop bombs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

In an actual war, yes. However, in moral warfare, the only way for an individual to personally prevail over evil is to refuse to participate in it... even if everyone else does. This is because evil, like darkness, has no energy of its own. But is only a lack of light. In the presence of light, darkness ceases to exist. Likewise in the presence of good, evil ceases to exist.

So if you ever see evil prevailing... it is only because it has not yet encountered that which is good.

Greg

You're getting a little too facile here. I don't want to start throwing Nazis at you. I suspect you play a lot of moving the goalposts around.

Well, I was originally talking of dealing with evil on more of a personal level than on a global scale. In fact that's the only way an individual can deal with it. I self insure with my own personal health account, so my health plan can never be taken away because I deal directly with my healthcare providers completely OUTSIDE of the insurance system. And I'm highly regarded as a preferential customer simply because when dealing with me there is no insurance bullshit. Life is so much simpler this way. I fully understand that everyone freely makes their own choice of how they live, and this is my own choice.

Just as there is something fundamentally wrong with the system of government, the healthcare system, the education system, and the credit/debt system... there is also something fundamentally wrong with the insurance system. And this is why I refuse to participate in it. I will not become fodder by abdicating personal responsibility for my own life to others. And my refusal to participate in its corruption is what protects me and mine from becoming collateral damage from the stupidity of either the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. So the only value of all the the wailing histrionics over the government and insurance has to me is entertainment....

...and I can tell you that it's very entertaining when viewed from the safety of "Galt's Gulch".

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

--Brant

better hope your passport is not revoked (a note for the future)

[moralist]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

I'm not forced by the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. By dealing completely outside the system, as a direct cash paying customer I negotiate my own discounts. You'd be truly shocked at just how preferentially you're treated as an independent direct dealing customer. This is the American way to be free. Simply go forth and lay claim to it.

So if you're not free it's your own damn fault. And don't blame the government or the insurance companies, because they can only opportunistically prey on the economic freedom of anyone who grants them their sanction by how they live their life. I can guarantee you that anyone who changes how they are living will enjoy the freedom of being an American.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

There is no entertainment in being forced to pay medical bills for medical necessities inflated beyond all reason by government interference with natural pricing through distribution of money and the imposition of regulations. You may have to go abroad to escape that crap.

I'm not forced by the government bureaucracy or the insurance bureaucracy. By dealing completely outside the system, as a direct cash paying customer I negotiate my own discounts. You'd be truly shocked at just how preferentially you're treated as an independent direct dealing customer. This is the American way to be free. Simply go forth and lay claim to it.

So if you're not free it's your own damn fault. And don't blame the government or the insurance companies, because they can only opportunistically prey on the economic freedom of anyone who grants them their sanction by how they live their life. I can guarantee that anyone who changes how they are living will enjoy the freedom of being an American.

Greg

I assume you like I have enjoyed pretty good health. There is a proper free market role for medical insurance against economic catastrophe, not for office visits.

--Brant