public unions versus the public

[Mikee]

Mikee, I take exception to your calling me a bigot, which to the best of my conscious knowledge I am not. It was a "by the way" comment and I request you also by the way, to retract it.

"Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."

Carol: Bigotry is just as real when directed at "rich" people or objectivists or individualists or lovers of liberty. It is prejudice without reason pure and simple.

Adam: Of course, as long a people are not FORCED into unions, as long as political parties don't pass laws forcing people to belong to unions or giving special preferential favors to unions. Did I give the impression I wasn't in favor of free association? I believe in the right to work. It goes both ways, employers should have the right to terminate employment at will with no reason just like an employee has the right to walk away with no stated reason. Employers should also be able to terminate a union at will when a contract expires. Let the market decide the consequences. Not coercion.

[caroljane]

Mikee, as I have demonstrated no hatred or intolerance for individualists,rich people, etc,, ever in my life, I repeat my request that you retract your statement.

[Selene]

Mikee:

As a favor, lose the caps with me. I can read emotional language quite well.

It goes both ways, employers should have the right to terminate employment at will with no reason just like an employee has the right to walk away with no stated reason.

Ah, but that would depend on the contract that was signed, if one was signed, would it not?

If I sign a contract that states that I cannot be terminated except under the following specific conditions, such as Alex Rodriguez's contract with the NY Yankees, your statement would not be accurate, correct?

A...

[caroljane]

For heavensake, read your own laws, or even some of my own posts on this. All employers have the absolute legal right to terminate any employee at will and without cause, at any time.

[Mikee]

Mikee, as I have demonstrated no hatred or intolerance for individualists,rich people, etc,, ever in my life, I repeat my request that you retract your statement.

The body of the definition of bigot "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;" contains no reference to hatred. Do you deny you are intolerantly devoted to your own opinions and prejudices? Without reason? The attempt to reason with you, to find common ground, to examine premises, finds you flying away or changing the subject (or spell checking). Perhaps you are a "soft" bigot.

You showed intolerance to George Zimmerman. He was consistent with everything he said, did not lawyer up, cooperated completely, was where he was doing what he was doing at the request of his grateful neighbors, the community had been preyed upon for weeks, his own family had been robbed by strangers. He was armed for his own protection, he fired once only after being pounded viciously into the ground for nearly a minute. And you call him a murderer. He no more wanted a fight with Martin than you did.

[Mikee]

Mikee:

As a favor, lose the caps with me. I can read emotional language quite well.

It goes both ways, employers should have the right to terminate employment at will with no reason just like an employee has the right to walk away with no stated reason.

Ah, but that would depend on the contract that was signed, if one was signed, would it not?

If I sign a contract that states that I cannot be terminated except under the following specific conditions, such as Alex Rodriguez's contract with the NY Yankees, your statement would not be accurate, correct?

A...

Favor granted.

Most employee-employer relationships are not contractual. Except when I was in the Navy I have not been under contract when employed. I've never been fired either. I have changed jobs many times, occasionally working for myself. Correction: I have worked part time for previous employers on an as needed basis under contract. I would never suggest breaking an employment contract or that one had the right to. Or any other freely entered contract.

[caroljane]

I was not aware that George Z. was a rich person or a noted individualist, and I certainly am intolerant of people who kill other people with handguns, regardless of their status. Nevertheless you cannot expand the definition of Bigot to include everyone you don't agree with, and I repeat my request that you retract this description which does not characterize me.

[Mikee]

For heavensake, read your own laws, or even some of my own posts on this. All employers have the absolute legal right to terminate any employee at will and without cause, at any time.

There is so much legally driven CYA and information gathering going on, sometimes for months, over terminating an employee that your statement is most certainly not true. At least in California.

[Mikee]

I was not aware that George Z. was a rich person or a noted individualist, and I certainly am intolerant of people who kill other people with handguns, regardless of their status. Nevertheless you cannot expand the definition of Bigot to include everyone you don't agree with, and I repeat my request that you retract this description which does not characterize me.

In any context? Even to save their own life?

[caroljane]

I am not a judge or an arbiter of the relative value of individual lives. To me individual life is always valuable and paramount.

If someone is demonstrating intolerance or irrationality here, I do not think it is me.

[caroljane]

"Most employer -employee relationships are not contractual". That may be true in California, you know best about that. But it is not true here, although the parties may not enter into a formal contract, under law if one person is paid for another to work, it is deemed a contractual relationship.

[Selene]

I am positive that Carol is not a bigot by the way.

[caroljane]

Also here, again unlike California, employees can be fired at will. They can sue for wrongful dismissal of course, if they have the money to do that, and they often win and sometimes even get their jobs back. But 90 percent of fired employees just walk away with whatever money they are offered, if any, and employers know that, being much smarter than the people they want to get rid of.

[Selene]

Also here, again unlike California, employees can be fired at will. They can sue for wrongful dismissal of course, if they have the money to do that, and they often win and sometimes even get their jobs back. But 90 percent of fired employees just walk away with whatever money they are offered, if any, and employers know that, being much smarter than the people they want to get rid of.

Carol:

I am not sure that is as accurate as you think it is. I have not seen any numbers on it though.

A...

[moralist]

I was not aware that George Z. was a rich person or a noted individualist, and I certainly am intolerant of people who kill other people with handguns, regardless of their status. Nevertheless you cannot expand the definition of Bigot to include everyone you don't agree with, and I repeat my request that you retract this description which does not characterize me.

In any context? Even to save their own life?

Not in today's emasculated sissyculture.

It used to be: ~Fight~ evil.

Now it's: Fighting ~is~ evil.

[caroljane]

Really, this is rich. You accuse me of invincible ignorance, and prejudice which denies facts, yet you expound on basic matters of employment law about which you have no clue.

[caroljane]

Also here, again unlike California, employees can be fired at will. They can sue for wrongful dismissal of course, if they have the money to do that, and they often win and sometimes even get their jobs back. But 90 percent of fired employees just walk away with whatever money they are offered, if any, and employers know that, being much smarter than the people they want to get rid of.

Carol:

I am not sure that is as accurate as you think it is. I have not seen any numbers on it though.

A...

[caroljane]

I can't be sure either, that figure was told to me by a lawyer and not something I read and could check out. Probably it is too high, but \I do believe most fired people do not pursue legal action, or refuse the first settlement offer they get -- if they get any.

[caroljane]

There are some sad cases of "perma-temps", ie people who work for years at the same job for the same company but without benefits or raises. I know one such person who was "retired" - ie fired, at age 60, although mandatory retirement is illegal. Of course as he had been paid "on contract" he had no pension from the company. He did not want to "make trouble" so he did not protest legally.

[Mikee]

I am not a judge or an arbiter of the relative value of individual lives. To me individual life is always valuable and paramount.

If someone is demonstrating intolerance or irrationality here, I do not think it is me.

So, you condemn with prejudice even if someone acts to save their own life.

"individual life is always valuable and paramount"...Adolph Hitler's life? Jeffrey Dahmer's?

[caroljane]

Mine and yours.

Please have the courtesy to retract your appellation, so that we can continue to communicate.

[Mikee]

I retract my statement that you are a bigot.

[moralist]

There are some sad cases of "perma-temps", ie people who work for years at the same job for the same company but without benefits or raises. I know one such person who was "retired" - ie fired, at age 60, although mandatory retirement is illegal. Of course as he had been paid "on contract" he had no pension from the company. He did not want to "make trouble" so he did not protest legally.

Your "innocent victim" story made me wonder what could be missing in a person who grants to others their sanction to actually offer their labor to them under those conditions.

Then came the answer:

A spine.

[caroljane]

Mikee;Accepted with thanks. You have said that I avoid argument and there is some truth in that. I have noticed that winning an argument, or losing it, never seems to change anyone's opinions or deeply-felt beliefs. Good arguers just think up better arguments and bad arguers sulk and fume. I am a mediocre arguer and have done both.

To moralist: knowing this person, I think you are right. I said it was a sad story, not an innocent victim one. But it is true that the employee-employer relationship can often become so personal to the employee, the job being such a large part of his life, that he loses sight of his real world rights

[anthony]

I was not aware that George Z. was a rich person or a noted individualist, and I certainly am intolerant of people who kill other people with handguns, regardless of their status.

Carol, You draw no distinction between the killer and the killed - whatever the circumstances - in fact, champion the so-called victim. This is muddy sentimentalism.

Conversely, I am highly intolerant of people who get killed by handguns... in violent situations they instigated. They evidently lacked any self-preservation, therefore were irrational, therefore immoral.

Anybody lacking that selfish concern for themselves, plus, no concern for other lives - has placed himself beneath moral consideration.

(What has being rich and/or individualist to do with it? Does only an Objectivist value his life above all else?)

All lives are not automatically equal (outside of the law), unless value is conferred by the individual himself.