Decline of Detroit - Ayn Rand's "Starnesville Incident"?

[Dglgmut]

People are not wood.

Is this the main problem you have with guns? If you understood their purpose would you forgo the accidents people have with them?

For example, with the "people who have caused a car accident shouldn't have had a car" comparison, the reason you don't worry about people having cars is because of their obvious benefits... is this right?

That is the only thing that makes sense to me. If you did understand why having the government control guns is bad for people, you obviously would be pro-gun, correct?

[caroljane]

FYI , I consider that Zimmerman was considering himself as the police in that situation.

It was the guns that killed Trayvon and Sammy, and neither Zimmerman nor Forcillo should have had one.

Should Brant Gaede have a gun? Carol snaps her fingers and Brant's gun(s) disappear. Brant no longer has any guns. Brant is home invaded. Brant kills three home invaders with his samurai sword. Should Brant have a samurai sword? Carol snaps her fingers and the samurai sword disappears.

Uh, Carol, all I have left now are steak knives. Would you kindly mind your own business?

--Brant

blood luster

There is no slippery slope here. People have murdered each other with whatever comes to hand since there have been people. Cars, saws, steak knives, anything can be used to kill. Only handguns are designed solely for the purpose of killing and they do it very efficiently. If they disappeared tomorrow, as I would like, and knives were then outlawed, of course those of homicidal bent would start carving them out of spoons, and so on. Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

We all have our hobbyhorses, Brant, and you know this is mine, the thing |I would like to see disappear in my personal Rapture, just as you said. Gulch feels the same way about the Federal Reserve, Baal could do without Iran, Adam..er, really doesn't seem to like the President. We all wish there were not a powerful factor in the world that we perceive to be doing harm. That being impossible we want to limit the harm.

And sorry but it is my business. You see your right to your gun as logically inseparable from your right to life. I see them as contradictory. You are a reasonable Island, peacefully trading and socializing with other Islands, but I am part of the continent, part of the main. Human life and the right to it, mine and yours and everybody's is my business.

Donne for the moment,

Carol

[Selene]

FYI , I consider that Zimmerman was considering himself as the police in that situation.

It was the guns that killed Trayvon and Sammy, and neither Zimmerman nor Forcillo should have had one.

Should Brant Gaede have a gun? Carol snaps her fingers and Brant's gun(s) disappear. Brant no longer has any guns. Brant is home invaded. Brant kills three home invaders with his samurai sword. Should Brant have a samurai sword? Carol snaps her fingers and the samurai sword disappears.

Uh, Carol, all I have left now are steak knives. Would you kindly mind your own business?

--Brant

blood luster

There is no slippery slope here. People have murdered each other with whatever comes to hand since there have been people. Cars, saws, steak knives, anything can be used to kill. Only handguns are designed solely for the purpose of killing and they do it very efficiently. If they disappeared tomorrow, as I would like, and knives were then outlawed, of course those of homicidal bent would start carving them out of spoons, and so on. Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the more efficient tool of death so popular.

We all have our hobbyhorses, Brant, and you know this is mine, the thing |I would like to see disappear in my personal Rapture, just as you said. Gulch feels the same way about the Federal Reserve, Baal could do without Iran, Adam..er, really doesn't seem to like the President. We all wish there were not a powerful factor in the world that we perceive to be doing harm. That being impossible we want to limit the harm.

And sorry but it is my business. You see your right to your gun as logically inseparable from your right to life. I see them as contradictory. You are a reasonable Island, peacefully trading and socializing with other Islands, but I am part of the continent, part of the main. Human life and the right to it, mine and yours and everybody's is my business.

Donne for now

Carol

Carol "hobbyhorse:"

...If they disappeared tomorrow, as I would like, and knives were then outlawed, of course those of homicidal bent would start carving them out of spoons, and so on. Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the more efficient tool of death so popular.

The utter stupidity of this statement cuts to the core of the paucity of your attempt at making a cogent argument about guns...

Carol:

1) Are you remotely aware of the Kalashnikov "rifle" which has dominated the global arms environment for the last four (4) decades?;

2) Are you remotely aware of the modern technology of the computer creation of weapons that is revolutionizing the access to weaponry?;

3) Are you aware that a bare bones incompetent can make a weapon in his apartment that can effectively kill his opponent, with a "gun," or, some other device?

Nowhere on the planet has there ever been effective gun control...ever.

A...

[Dglgmut]

Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

Before you were talking about people like the cop who shot Sammy, now gangs?

That cop, although he clearly made a stupid and reckless mistake (and should be punished, not as a matter of justice, but as a matter of precedence), could have been a guardian angel for someone unfortunate enough to have an experience with a gang member...

Cops are human... they make mistakes, and can be immoral, but without them it would be a lot worse. The same can be said for law abiding citizens who want to own a gun. It's better than ONLY the gang members having guns.

[caroljane]

FYI , I consider that Zimmerman was considering himself as the police in that situation.

It was the guns that killed Trayvon and Sammy, and neither Zimmerman nor Forcillo should have had one.

Should Brant Gaede have a gun? Carol snaps her fingers and Brant's gun(s) disappear. Brant no longer has any guns. Brant is home invaded. Brant kills three home invaders with his samurai sword. Should Brant have a samurai sword? Carol snaps her fingers and the samurai sword disappears.

Uh, Carol, all I have left now are steak knives. Would you kindly mind your own business?

--Brant

blood luster

There is no slippery slope here. People have murdered each other with whatever comes to hand since there have been people. Cars, saws, steak knives, anything can be used to kill. Only handguns are designed solely for the purpose of killing and they do it very efficiently. If they disappeared tomorrow, as I would like, and knives were then outlawed, of course those of homicidal bent would start carving them out of spoons, and so on. Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the more efficient tool of death so popular.

We all have our hobbyhorses, Brant, and you know this is mine, the thing |I would like to see disappear in my personal Rapture, just as you said. Gulch feels the same way about the Federal Reserve, Baal could do without Iran, Adam..er, really doesn't seem to like the President. We all wish there were not a powerful factor in the world that we perceive to be doing harm. That being impossible we want to limit the harm.

And sorry but it is my business. You see your right to your gun as logically inseparable from your right to life. I see them as contradictory. You are a reasonable Island, peacefully trading and socializing with other Islands, but I am part of the continent, part of the main. Human life and the right to it, mine and yours and everybody's is my business.

Donne for now

Carol

Carol "hobbyhorse:"

...If they disappeared tomorrow, as I would like, and knives were then outlawed, of course those of homicidal bent would start carving them out of spoons, and so on. Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the more efficient tool of death so popular.

The utter stupidity of this statement cuts to the core of the paucity of your attempt at making a cogent argument about guns...

Carol:

1) Are you remotely aware of the Kalashnikov "rifle" which has dominated the global arms environment for the last four (4) decades?;

2) Are you remotely aware of the modern technology of the computer creation of weapons that is revolutionizing the access to weaponry?;

3) Are you aware that a bare bones incompetent can make a weapon in his apartment that can effectively kill his opponent, with a "gun," or, some other device?

Nowhere on the planet has there ever been effective gun control...ever.

nuA...

Quite. Nowhere on the planet has criminality been controlled, ever , if by effectively you mean entirely. But it has been reduced by various means at various times, and one constant is the criminality of gunshot deaths by accident or intent, where the availability and incidence of guns has been reduced. Killers just kill fewer people with guns when there are fewer guns to get hold ofThat is my only point and it is not in fact stupid.

Naturally I include the delightful proliferations in instant-death technology in my "click fingers and disappear" fantasy.

[caroljane]

Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

Before you were talking about people like the cop who shot Sammy, now gangs?

That cop, although he clearly made a stupid and reckless mistake (and should be punished, not as a matter of justice, but as a matter of precedence), could have been a guardian angel for someone unfortunate enough to have an experience with a gang member...

Cops are human... they make mistakes, and can be immoral, but without them it would be a lot worse. The same can be said for law abiding citizens who want to own a gun. It's better than ONLY the gang members having guns.

Yes. Sammy could have joined the Force and become such a guardian angel himself. \We will never know, as he is being buried today, maybe you noticed. He has a "fine and private place|" to reason out all his unreasonable-death-deserving errors of judgement. The mistake-making officer has the best cop-saving lawyer in the province and fair expectation of many years of freedom, if not complete exoneration.

[Dglgmut]

Yes. Sammy could have joined the Force and become such a guardian angel himself. \We will never know, as he is being buried today, maybe you noticed. He has a "fine and private place|" to reason out all his unreasonable-death-deserving errors of judgement. The mistake-making officer has the best cop-saving lawyer in the province and fair expectation of many years of freedom, if not complete exoneration.

Why do you have to create such horrible stawmen? Of course I don't think he deserved to die, and I said the cop should be charged with at least manslaughter--that's the best way to prevent these types of mistakes from happening.

You can't eliminate guns. You can't prevent criminals from getting guns. You can't prevent people like the one in question from becoming cops (in fact, he's probably very similar to most people who desire to become police). So how do you deal with the reality that there are criminals who have guns, and criminals out there that without the threat of being shot will commit violent crimes?

[caroljane]

You can only prevent criminals from getting guns when there are fewer guns to get. and of course the ones that exist they will get.

I do not know what horrible strawmen you refer to. I reference here only two men, Sammy Yatim and James Forcillo, one dead and one alive and neither made as yet of straw.

[Dglgmut]

Your not accepting the fact that you cannot make guns that hard to get.

Not only is 3D printing coming along, but the sheer number of guns already in the US would just make it impossible.

Confiscation would only take guns from law abiding citizens. You can look to other countries all you want, but in the US the gangs are far more equipped and serious. They have fully automatic weapons and explosives. This is reality...

[Brant Gaede]

Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

Before you were talking about people like the cop who shot Sammy, now gangs?

That cop, although he clearly made a stupid and reckless mistake (and should be punished, not as a matter of justice, but as a matter of precedence), could have been a guardian angel for someone unfortunate enough to have an experience with a gang member...

Cops are human... they make mistakes, and can be immoral, but without them it would be a lot worse. The same can be said for law abiding citizens who want to own a gun. It's better than ONLY the gang members having guns.

Yes. Sammy could have joined the Force and become such a guardian angel himself. \We will never know, as he is being buried today, maybe you noticed. He has a "fine and private place|" to reason out all his unreasonable-death-deserving errors of judgement. The mistake-making officer has the best cop-saving lawyer in the province and fair expectation of many years of freedom, if not complete exoneration

How many bad cops did he save? How many good ones? Why do you think he'll save Mr. Nine Shot?

--Brant

[caroljane]

Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

Before you were talking about people like the cop who shot Sammy, now gangs?

That cop, although he clearly made a stupid and reckless mistake (and should be punished, not as a matter of justice, but as a matter of precedence), could have been a guardian angel for someone unfortunate enough to have an experience with a gang member...

Cops are human... they make mistakes, and can be immoral, but without them it would be a lot worse. The same can be said for law abiding citizens who want to own a gun. It's better than ONLY the gang members having guns.

Yes. Sammy could have joined the Force and become such a guardian angel himself. \We will never know, as he is being buried today, maybe you noticed. He has a "fine and private place|" to reason out all his unreasonable-death-deserving errors of judgement. The mistake-making officer has the best cop-saving lawyer in the province and fair expectation of many years of freedom, if not complete exoneration

;

How many bad cops did he save? How many good ones? Why do you think he'll save Mr. Nine Shot?

--Brant

I do not know of the good ones they do not tend to get charged with assault and excessive force etc. The acquitted or community-service ones include the current head of the |Police Union, his father the former head of same, a guy who shot a small 52-year-old schizophrenic woman to death after she herself had called police (yes, she had a knife), and that is off the top of my head. He is connected from every orifice and knows where all the bodies are buried. This case is so hot right now that he may not succeed entirely but he will go by the playbook: advise client not to cooperate with SIU investigation, as is his right. Stall, delay. Leak sympathetic info about the officer to press. Leak unprovable allegations against victim to same. Wait, wait until the memory of the victim fades and the public are interested in another story. Etcetera. And all the time, twist the arms, work the connections.

[Brant Gaede]

Gangs would be obliged to set about each other with chopsticks and steam irons. But the body count would still be less than it is with the lightweight portable 100% guaranteed tool of death so popular.

Before you were talking about people like the cop who shot Sammy, now gangs?

That cop, although he clearly made a stupid and reckless mistake (and should be punished, not as a matter of justice, but as a matter of precedence), could have been a guardian angel for someone unfortunate enough to have an experience with a gang member...

Cops are human... they make mistakes, and can be immoral, but without them it would be a lot worse. The same can be said for law abiding citizens who want to own a gun. It's better than ONLY the gang members having guns.

Yes. Sammy could have joined the Force and become such a guardian angel himself. \We will never know, as he is being buried today, maybe you noticed. He has a "fine and private place|" to reason out all his unreasonable-death-deserving errors of judgement. The mistake-making officer has the best cop-saving lawyer in the province and fair expectation of many years of freedom, if not complete exoneration

;

How many bad cops did he save? How many good ones? Why do you think he'll save Mr. Nine Shot?

--Brant

I do not know of the good ones they do not tend to get charged with assault and excessive force etc. The acquitted or community-service ones include the current head of the |Police Union, his father the former head of same, a guy who shot a small 52-year-old schizophrenic woman to death after she herself had called police (yes, she had a knife), and that is off the top of my head. He is connected from every orifice and knows where all the bodies are buried. This case is so hot right now that he may not succeed entirely but he will go by the playbook: advise client not to cooperate with SIU investigation, as is his right. Stall, delay. Leak sympathetic info about the officer to press. Leak unprovable allegations against victim to same. Wait, wait until the memory of the victim fades and the public are interested in another story. Etcetera. And all the time, twist the arms, work the connections.

Jeez--sounds just like the U S of A.

Ya gotta accept the imperfectibility of the should-be perfect for the perfect world ain't perfect and never will be.

Not even in Canada.

--Brant

a perfectly pure man

[Selene]

Ridiculous argument Carol.

[caroljane]

What argument? I was not arguing anything. Brant asked me about a particular lawyer. I admire this guy's expertise, but the system is the system. Actually I consider good defence lawyers a bulwark of democracy, and I am not going to kick if they specialize in Mafia or bad-cop clients. Even amongst them, a few will actually be innocent of what they are accused of, and all deserve the fairest hearing possible.

"What God abandoned, these defended,

And saved the sum of things for pay."

AEH, "Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries"

[Selene]

Your not accepting the fact that you cannot make guns that hard to get.

Not only is 3D printing coming along, but the sheer number of guns already in the US would just make it impossible.

Confiscation would only take guns from law abiding citizens. You can look to other countries all you want, but in the US the gangs are far more equipped and serious. They have fully automatic weapons and explosives. This is reality...

My error Carol:

I was referring to your argument that Calvin answered.

A...

[Brant Gaede]

Ya woulda liked my maw, Carolwaw. PhD Eng Lit. Expert on English Pageant Wagons before W. Skakes.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Ya woulda liked my maw, Carolwaw. PhD Eng Lit. Expert on English Pageant Wagons before W. Skakes.

--Brant

You woulda liked mine too Brantibus. Dead last in graduation from Business College and the best storyteller I ever heard.

[Brant Gaede]

Ya woulda liked my maw, Carolwaw. PhD Eng Lit. Expert on English Pageant Wagons before W. Skakes.

--Brant

You woulda liked mine too Brantibus. Dead last in graduation from Business College and the best storyteller I ever heard.

Trump. My Mom's heart desire was to be a Brenda Star but she found a way to stay away since she said not done that day (1930s) but . . .

--Brant

world's full of buts

[caroljane]

Cripes. I was supposed to be the Brenda Starr but I soon realized that I could not bear to ask people impertinent questions. I don't mind doing it now, though. Sometimes the buts reappear as ands.