Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Mr Jerry, It is early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet and I wake up to this...lovely! I heard in the biographies that MiMi was mention, but yet Aunt Agnes wasn't. How did MiMi have a relationship with them with out her mother? How many biographies are there??? And how many do you need to get it right??? My aunt Agnes was the glue that held this family together, she played a very important role in our family...but yet not mentioned. My Aunt Agnes moved to shaker heights Cleveland Ohio from Chicago when we were young and remained there. All of the family were born and lived in Ohio, And your biography is saying they never visited Ohio in all those years or their family? Not to mention their only family! But yet mentioned MiMi, who was born and raised in Ohio. I couldn't tell you why all this was left out...or maybe just another family secret...which I am finding out there is a long line of them. I am fifty five years old and going back over thirty years of my life that I pushed out of my mind and soul at thirteen. Granted...I maybe off by a few years in my memory...but I don't think so. So since you seem to know more about my family than I do, please tell me who is Aunt Alice, Uncle Frank, Aunt Agnes, John (Bill) O'Connor and most importantly who is Conny and Cathy O'Connor. Because if they never had family (biography) or visited that family and none of us existed...then please tell me all those years were nothing but a nightmare, Really, I would be happy to know it all was a bad dream. ~Cathy~ (or whoever I am)

[Cathy]

Neil, I never said the conversation about the affair that Uncle Frank and Aunt Alice were present. They were not there. It was between Aunt Agnes and my father. I believe it was in 70/71, and the only reason I think it was those years because of our age. I don't know if I would have had the understanding of it all if I was younger...but I could have been eleven. Or that could have been when my Aunt Agnes told my father...after it was over...which could make sense since my dad was very sick at the time. I have to laugh Neil...the biography will cover her entire life...what did the other ones cover? These biographies only cover what the writer wants it to cover. Barbra Branden only wanted to cover the shocking affair, and how lazy, unintelligent Frank was. Why don't they cover the real story, how a family knew of children being abused, starved, and placed in scolding hot bath water, yet your "great Philosopher of the century" turned a blind eye and deaf ear to live her glamorous life! That's the true story!

[Neil Parille]

I just realized that as late as 74, Rand and Frank went to D.C. to attend the swearing in of Greenspan. But I think my general point still holds that travel for them was the exception.

If they for a period of time took yearly visits to Ohio to visit Frank's family (or stopped by while coming or going on other trips) I think it would have left some trace in the historical record and would have been something Rand's biographers would have found worthy of mention.

According to Anne Heller on pages 235-36,that in 1951, while driving from California to New York, Ayn and Frank stopped in Cleveland (which is near Lorain) and took Agnes and her daughter Connie out to dinner. The source of that is a 2004 interview with Connie. That's the last mention of Connie or Agnes in the book.

If they did stop off yearly in Lorain when going on other trips, I'd like to know what these trips were.

-Neil Parille

[Cathy]

Stephen, My Aunt Agnes was our protector. When she was there my step mother didn't do half the things to us then when she wasn't. It was the only time in our time spent in my father's house that we found some sort of peace. All of this did bring back good memories, but then the ugly slipped in and now I am reminded of why I chose not to remember any of it. I guess you can't have the good without the bad, unfortunately. As I look back on things now, I think Aunt Alice and Aunt Agnes drew on our backs to see how bad the bruises were. I never thought of that before this. But while my children were growing up, I drew on their backs also...but I never lifted their shirts up like my aunts did us. The night before my Aunt left, there was a huge argument between my step mother and aunt. Of course my father said very little. My sister and I were ease dropping again, and it was the worst argument I had ever witnessed (heard) I thought it was going to come to a knock out drag out fist fight. Believe it or not, I was very happy. All through the argument me and my sister was smiling at each other. I wanted my aunt to beat the shit out of my step mother and was disappointed when that didn't happen. The next morning when my aunt had left, we knew my father would never let her back in the door or any other relative, because now the cat was out of the bag. For the first time we were on our own without any relatives to visit to give us moments of happiness. We began to run away from home...there was nothing left. Of course the police would always bring us back, until finally my father dropped us off at the detention home. I just found out that Aunt Agnes died in 1983, and I had all those years to go find her and never did...I will always regret that. ~Cathy~

[Neil Parille]

Cathy, I stand corrected.

However, I wonder if you've read Barbara's biography. She does not describe Frank as lazy and unintelligent. And there's a lot more to her biography than the affair.

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

Mrs. Dupler says she heard a discussion about the affair when Ayn and Frank were visiting in 1970 or 1971.

Not when Ayn and Frank were visiting, when Aunt Agnes was visiting. She and her sister heard an argument between Aunt Agnes and her father.

I see nothing implausible in Frank's having told his sister Agnes, and maybe his brother as well, about the affair.

Ellen

Add: Neil's post above appeared while I was writing mine.

[Neil Parille]

Ellen,

Maybe it's not implausible, but strikes me as rather unlikely.

And in what context would it come out during an argument between Aunt Agnes and her father in 1971?

-Neil Parille

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy, there is a danger in your reading Rand biographies right now: your own memories and evaluations might be modified and not for the better. Just be aware that what you know is precious to you because it's yours. I'm just saying don't go down the mountain, free-wheeling without using your brakes. Take your time. It's too easy to get into debates about is this a fact, was that a fact, what happened where and when, who did who to what, etc. You don't have to prove anything to anybody. While people on this forum naturally want to reconcile what you say with what they think they know, a lot of what we think we know is second-hand or even less, even for some of us, like myself, who have some first-hand experiences with or about Frank and Ayn. They appeared sometimes in public, of course, but very, very few of us ever went home with them or had conversations of any extent with them. One big exception was Barbara Branden.

--Brant

just sayin

[Brant Gaede]

There is no problem if Cathy's stories have problems. There would be a huge problem if there were no problems.

--Brant

[Neil Parille]

Brant,

If Ayn and Frank made yearly visits to Lorain over of a period of several years, I'd expect we'd have heard this by now.

And what's with the attacks on Barbara's bio when she hasn't even read it?

-Neil Parille

[Brant Gaede]

I don't know, Neil. Do you want to speculate?

--Brant

[caroljane]

Cathy, there is a danger in your reading Rand biographies right now: your own memories and evaluations might be modified and not for the better. Just be aware that what you know is precious to you because it's yours. I'm just saying don't go down the mountain, free-wheeling without using your brakes. Take your time. It's too easy to get into debates about is this a fact, was that a fact, what happened where and when, who did who to what, etc. You don't have to prove anything to anybody. While people on this forum naturally want to reconcile what you say with what they think they know, a lot of what we think we know is second-hand or even less, even for some of us, like myself, who have some first-hand experiences with or about Frank and Ayn. They appeared sometimes in public, of course, but very, very few of us ever went home with them or had conversations of any extent with them. One big exception was Barbara Branden.

--Brant

just sayin

What you said.

If I were Cathy I would get a bio and just look up the Frank references, skipping the narrative.

[Neil Parille]

Brant,

I don't want to speculate (on why the attacks on Barbara's bio, which she hasn't read). I'd like to know why she thinks Valliant's description of Barbara's book is correct when she is posting on a thread of mine that shows Valliant distorts her book.

It's a little strange to announce to the world that you don't know much about Rand, but you know of the Valliant distortion (but don't know who Valliant is) and that you don't like Leonard Peikoff. Oh, and she happens to know that the affair was about "SEX."

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

Neil,

What is it in Cathy's recollections that would upset the apple cart of your views of Ayn and Frank?

I'm not getting why you'd have any problem with her stories being true.

---

Cathy,

Something I and others have wondered about is whether Ayn suspected Nick of being gay. You say she did and that no one else in the family thought it was true. Do you recall any details of what Ayn said about it?

The reason the issue is interesting is because, in a Q&A period, Rand gave an answer which was very negative about homosexuality, yet she's reported as having been very fond of Nick, so people have wondered if she suspected and was making an exception in Nick's case.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Brant,

I don't want to speculate (on why the attacks on Barbara's bio, which she hasn't read). I'd like to know why she thinks Valliant's description of Barbara's book is correct when she is posting on a thread of mine that shows Valliant distorts her book.

Gee, Neil, maybe she didn't read your review carefully. Maybe it's all new and confusing to her.

Ellen

[Jonathan]

Brant,

I don't want to speculate (on why the attacks on Barbara's bio, which she hasn't read). I'd like to know why she thinks Valliant's description of Barbara's book is correct when she is posting on a thread of mine that shows Valliant distorts her book.

It's a little strange to announce to the world that you don't know much about Rand, but you know of the Valliant distortion (but don't know who Valliant is) and that you don't like Leonard Peikoff. Oh, and she happens to know that the affair was about "SEX."

-Neil Parille

Maybe Cathy hasn't read the entire thread or understood the full context of what all of the arguments that it contains are about. Perhaps she's skimmed a few opinions in the slanted land of SOLOP and innocently believed them. If so, I think that we should warn Cathy that there are people who can be very emotional and opinionated when it comes to the subject of her Aunt Alice. In protecting their vision of the purity of Ayn Rand, they're willing to smear others with false accusations, and to distort reality in very odd ways.

Cathy, don't take as the truth anything said by anyone who is passionate about Ayn Rand and her ideas. James Valliant is not a good source of information on what Barbara or Nathaniel Branden had to say about Rand. Please read Barbara's book (The Passion of Ayn Rand) for yourself if you want to know what she said about Frank. Personally, it's been a very long time since I read it, but my memory of it is that she offered a very loving portrayal of him.

J

[Jerry Biggers]

Mrs. Dupler,

It is curious that the same "Aunt Alice" that you recall tucking you and sister into bed, reciting a prayer to you, writing on your back, etc. and showing a lot of fondness and concern towards your welfare (such as possibly examining your back for evidence of bruises) is the same "Aunt Alice" that you accuse (and her posthumous biographers) of the following:, "Why don't they cover the real story, how a family knew of children being abused, starved, and placed in scolding hot bath water, yet your "great Philosopher of the century" turned a blind eye and deaf ear to live her glamorous life! That's the true story!"

So, which is it? Aunt Alice showing considerable affection towards you. Or Ayn turning a blind eye and deaf ear towards physical and mental abuse of Frank's niece, (for whom she clearly cared for fondly, according to your acount)? Or both? And, if she is such a despicable person, why do you now want to be associated with her?

The biographies written by Barbara Branden and Anne Heller are not hagiographical. They show many instances of Ayn Rand's behavior that are , uncomplimentary (Heller, in particular).. According to both, there was only one trip by Ayn and Frank to Lorain, Ohio; and that was in late 1938/1939 for the funeral of Frank's father.(considerably before you were born). They also traveled through Ohio, on their way to New York, and stopped in Cleveland in 1951 to take Agnes Papurt and her daughter, Connie, out to dinner.

Mrs. Dupler, you claims that there were multiple visits by Aunt Alice and Frank to Lorain. Do you have any photos of you and "Aunt Alice," together?

[Jonathan]

The biographies written by Barbara Branden and Anne Heller are not hagiographical. They show many instances of Ayn Rand's behavior that are , uncomplimentary (Heller, in particular).. According to both, there was only one trip by Ayn and Frank to Lorain, Ohio; and that was in late 1938/1939 for the funeral of Frank's father.(considerably before you were born). They also traveled through Ohio, on their way to New York, and stopped in Cleveland in 1951 to take Agnes Papurt and her daughter, Connie, out to dinner.

Do the biographies claim to know about every trip that Ayn and Frank ever took? Do the biographies state that they did not and could not have taken any trips that the biographers weren't aware of?

J

[Guyau]

deleted

[Jonathan]

From Oblivia's recent post to Cathy on SOLOP:

"Hi. If your story is true, it's an amazing one. To find out that your deceased Aunt Alice is really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century ..."

Good lord. Why is it that so many Objectivists can't feel the froth dripping down their chins when they're Objecti-vangelizing?

J

[Brant Gaede]

From Oblivia's recent post to Cathy on SOLOP:

"Hi. If your story is true, it's an amazing one. To find out that your deceased Aunt Alice is really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century ..."

Good lord. Why is it that so many Objectivists can't feel the froth dripping down their chins when they're Objecti-vangelizing?

J

In the context of the discussion, that's crap.

--Brant

is it crap in the context of a crappy discussion?

[Brant Gaede]

The only sock-puppet I can think of who might be "Cathy"--and I do think Cathy is Cathy--would be Valliant's wife what's her name.

--Brant

[Jerry Biggers]

The burden of proof is on the asserter to prove his/her case. If it can stand up to critical probing examinations, then fine. If not, either new evidence has to be displayed by the asserter to prove his/her case, or it is thrown out..

This reminds me of some writings on conspiracy theory; (I'm referring here to the methodology, I'm not asserting that a conspiracy has anything to do with this!).. The claims of a conspiracy are presented, with enough credibility to make its claims, possible. Then, the skeptics,are left with trying to refute the various connections made in the theory. This certainly is a clever maneuver, in that it reverses who is required to provide the evidence.

Jonathan,

Given the context of the biographers, to miss a story such as Cathy is presenting (if they think it valid) would indeed miss an opportunity to show aspects of Rand's character. Can they prove it didn't happen? Probably not Did they have sources that followed her around and went on all the trips? Probably not. Did both Barbara Branden and Anne Heller talk to the key sources? Most likely, yes. Read the books, especially the Notes, regarding their sources.

Can we prove that Cathy Dupler's account is false, in all its essential details? Of course not Can we prove the rumors that Rand had had an affair with Leonard Read in California? No, there is no one that can corroborate it..

[Jonathan]

The only sock-puppet I can think of who might be "Cathy"--and I do think Cathy is Cathy--would be Valliant's wife what's her name.

--Brant

The problem with the idea of Holly sock-puppeting as Cathy is that Cathy is now saying things that would make TheValliants™ go into panic/denial/lawyerly-spin/smear mode.

J

[Jonathan]

From Oblivia's recent post to Cathy on SOLOP:

"Hi. If your story is true, it's an amazing one. To find out that your deceased Aunt Alice is really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century ..."

Good lord. Why is it that so many Objectivists can't feel the froth dripping down their chins when they're Objecti-vangelizing?

J

In the context of the discussion, that's crap.

--Brant

is it crap in the context of a crappy discussion?

Has Cathy said that she found out that her deceased Aunt Alice was really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century? All that I saw Cathy say was that she found out that her aunt was a famous writer.

J