Even in Texas - Cops Don't Know Right From Wrong

[dennislmay]

When I was an Air Force Officer I had a similar - in substance - but less dramatic

event happen to me in Dayton OH. Luckily however in that case the supervisor

knew right from wrong and stopped the brain dead cop from disarming me.

Back before Wikipedia Jimmy Wales, myself, and a few others were having

a gun control discussion on-line and a misunderstanding of the context of a

statement I made caused Jimmy Wales to chide me for inaccuracy. I was

talking about how they were going door to door in California confiscating guns.

I was speaking in the context of police answering a call about a fight then going

door to door disarming people in the immediate area without warrant or probable

cause - the same kind of thing that nearly happened to me in Dayton.

Of course we now have hindsight about New Orleans when the cops broke

down doors and beat old women taking their guns - never to be returned.

Registration will lead to confiscation which will end in dictatorship.

Clueless city dwellers made afraid of guns by government will be the end of America.

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

I can't make much sense of this except somebody called about somebody with a gun and the police responded resulting in an arrest. If the man's son did the video-taping was the guy putting on a show too boot? This is not the same level as New Orleans, nowhere close. There is a bifurcation here. In New Orleans the cops went into homes seizing firearms. The operative principle in the field is once you know they are cops you give up the weapon if they ask you to until they determine what is what. If all is okay they give it back to you before they leave. This comes out of the monopoly of force principle. The former from property rights. These cops couldn't determine if they were dealing with a rational actor with all that let-me-educate-you crap streaming out of his mouth. You cannot claim rights' violation here unless you can claim this guy could use retaliatory force to resist initiation of force--that is he sees an advantage so he opens fire killing the cops because they initiated force and he knew the law would back him up. But what law? Let's say he has moral if not legal grounds. Then he is already in a state of war.

--Brant

[dennislmay]

I can't make much sense of this except somebody called about somebody with a gun and the police responded resulting in an arrest. If the man's son did the video-taping was the guy putting on a show too boot? This is not the same level as New Orleans, nowhere close.

--Brant

In New Orleans they would have taken the camera, beat the piss out of you, and/or you might have been shot as many innocent people were. This is only the case of a stupid over reacting cop being protected by a stupid supervisor. Stupid over-reacting cops get people killed. This one and his supervisor both need fired.

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

I can't make much sense of this except somebody called about somebody with a gun and the police responded resulting in an arrest. If the man's son did the video-taping was the guy putting on a show too boot? This is not the same level as New Orleans, nowhere close.

--Brant

In New Orleans they would have taken the camera, beat the piss out of you, and/or you might have been shot as many innocent people were. This is only the case of a stupid over reacting cop being protected by a stupid supervisor. Stupid over-reacting cops get people killed. This one and his supervisor both need fired.

Dennis

See my last edit in case you missed anything you might want to respond to. So far I only agree tentatively about the stupidity--of everybody involved.

--Brant

always assume the cops are stupid--it can work if you want a good video showing that

[dennislmay]

The operative principle in the field is once you know they are cops you give up the weapon if they ask you to until they determine what is what.

--Brant

First problem: a complaint with no probable cause to do anything about it - no crime was being committed. Only a very stupid over reacting cop would have proceeded to disarm someone based on such a call when there was nothing indicating a problem.

The cop did not ask him to give up the weapon - the cop attempted to grab it.

It would not surprise me if that cop turned out to have come from an urban area and was kindergarten clueless about guns and hunting - much less the law. He clearly does not have the proper mentality to be a policeman.

Dennis

[syrakusos]

What do you mean "even in Texas"? This is a fascist state, complete with corrupt elections, government regulations and subsidies for special business interests, state-level monopoly control over school textbooks, ... on and on.... The culture is different than in Massachusetts, for sure, but as far as the government goes, the powers in control follow the Massachusetts Psalter

I am with Brant on this. The guy was a loudmouth know-it-all grandstanding for the camera, which his son did not know how to use. (How well does his son point a gun?)

As the police officer explained over the idiot's constant yelling, "in this day and age..." a man walking around with a weapon like that makes people afraid. Also, note that three officers showed up. My wife asked me about that when she moved here. The police here never do anything without an abundance of back-up. I said, "You do not want to live in a society where the police lose arguments."

Also, from my point of view, three officers gives the citizen an advantage in less opportunity for a "blue curtain" to fall down over the events. Three can keep a secret...

As for New Orleans, it is also a cultural problem. As I said on Rebirth of Reason here in the wake of Katrina:

The difference between New York City after 9/11 and New Orleans after Katrina is an undeniable contrast between a city that rose to the sky, because its people could not be held to the ground, and a city that wallowed in a swamp, as long as the red beans and rice were as cheap as music and bourbon.

Back in 2005, I just started in criminal justice classes with a class in ethics. On opening night, the term paper assignment was to investigate the police corruption in New Orleans and devise a solution. ("Assignment: Appointed as the police chief of New Orleans in 1995, how would you have cleaned up the corruption in that department?") When the hurricane hit, that was put off. "Let the town recover..." Well, you see how that went. ... 1995... Corruption and abuse of power was not a new problem for New Orleans, nor is it a transient problem.... Officer Antoinette Frank killed two civilians and her own former partner while robbing a restaurant.

... charged] Antoinette Frank, a 23-year-old New Orleans police officer, with the murders of the brother, Cuong Vu, 17, his 24-year-old sister, Ha Vu, and the officer, 25-year-old Ronald Williams. They were killed, the police said, during a robbery by Officer Frank and an 18-year-old accomplice.

Also from 1994-1995, this 1996 DoJ announcment:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A former New Orleans police officer and a hit man have been sentenced to death by a federal jury for conspiring to murder a woman who filed a civil rights complaint against the officer and his partner, the Justice Department announced today.

A jury in U.S. District Court in New Orleans convicted former New Orleans police officer Len Davis of violating federal criminal civil rights laws by soliciting Paul Hardy to murder Kim Marie Groves, a New Orleans woman, after she filed a civil rights complaint against Davis and his partner.

And as Paul Harvey used to say, here is the rest of the story:

The FBI was tracking Len Davis for drugs and racketeering. They had him on his cell phone (maybe on his car radio), planning to kill "that bitch" and they did nothing. The FBI Let him kill Kim Marie Groves rather than "jeopardize the investigation.' You can blame Washington DC if you want, but I look to the local field office.

Getting to the root in New Orleans, it was always the case - as it is in many places, including Texas - that bars and restaurants and other businesses hire "off duty" police officers to work as security guards. Sometimes that goes through the department, sometimes through the union. Here it is run as a plethora of little independent licensed businesses run by supervising officers who farm the work to their direct reports. Of course, it creates a potential for conflict of interest, and in New Orleans, that ran rampant. When do you bust a hooker or a drug dealer? -- And save your libertarian doubletalk about victimless crimes. -- The police in New Orleans were paid to look the other way as a matter of routine.

Once you are compromised, where do you draw the line?

[dennislmay]

As the police officer explained over the idiot's constant yelling, "in this day and age..." a man walking around with a weapon like that makes people afraid.

In this day and age we need police who know and respect objective law and uphold their oath to the Constitution. We don't need urban liberals disguised as policemen pushing PC at the point of a gun like PC is an objective law. Beck was talking about this case today to a policeman caller from Oklahoma and voiced pretty much the same thing - now more than ever we must insist our police do the right thing when it comes to our 2nd Amendment civil liberties. You can't just assume the police are the right side of the law or the constitution - many are not. The policeman in the video would not say any law had been broken - only that he is the law. That is the rule of a man, not the law.

Once you are compromised, where do you draw the line?

In the context of protecting civil rights are we going to look the other way and be compromised or draw a line?

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

The operative principle in the field is once you know they are cops you give up the weapon if they ask you to until they determine what is what.

--Brant

First problem: a complaint with no probable cause to do anything about it - no crime was being committed. Only a very stupid over reacting cop would have proceeded to disarm someone based on such a call when there was nothing indicating a problem.

The cop did not ask him to give up the weapon - the cop attempted to grab it.

It would not surprise me if that cop turned out to have come from an urban area and was kindergarten clueless about guns and hunting - much less the law. He clearly does not have the proper mentality to be a policeman.

Dennis

These may be true, I think the data are lacking for your generalizations off this video. If you are in a public way with a legal firearm and a policeman asks you to surrender custody of it and you refuse how he may properly proceed would be defined by statute and regulation and established legal procedure, but that is not the time for a judge to get involved absent issuance of a warrant. It's you and the cop. 1) You give up the gun. 2) You talk about it later. If you don't comply it's force against force and I assure you that you are then rightfully the underdog in the field and in the courts although you might eventually prevail, one way or the other.

--Brant

I think that guy was an asshole; about the cops--?

[dennislmay]

If you are in a public way with a legal firearm and a policeman asks you to surrender custody of it and you refuse how he may properly proceed would be defined by statute and regulation and established legal procedure, but that is not the time for a judge to get involved absent issuance of a warrant. It's you and the cop. 1) You give up the gun. 2) You talk about it later. If you don't comply it's force against force and I assure you that you are then rightfully the underdog in the field and in the courts although you might eventually prevail, one way or the other.

--Brant

I think that guy was an asshole; about the cops--?

I am absolutely sure the big cop who caused the problem is an out of control fucking asshole who needs to lose his job. His pencil pusher CYA boss needs to go for being incompetent in allowing the arrest to cover the incompetent big cop.

The man properly asked to talk to the bad cops boss who happened to be there and the issue could have been resolved but the CYA boss make things worse by protecting a bad call.

Dirty cops are famous for stealing firearms. It was a serious issue when I lived in Dayton and it has been known to happen here locally. Dirty judges cover for dirty cops [used to happen here locally all the time].

To voluntarily submit to a cop in the wrong is an interesting question. I guess it depends on the context and circumstances. The question becomes more interesting when living under statism where the law is always about the gun and nothing to do with objective law. There are places in the US right now were outright statism has taken over concerning some civil rights - the 2nd Amendment being one of them. Vote with your feet if you can, if not things then become interesting.

Dennis

[syrakusos]

If the law is on your side, pound the law. If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If neither one is on your side, pound the table. -- Lawyer's aphorism.

Dennis, you pound that urban thing. You are no more a hillbilly than I am: you just think it's cool to wear the mantle of Jed Clampitt. In point of fact, the incident took place outside Temple, Texas.

Temple is a city in Bell County, Texas, United States. Located near the county seat of Belton, Temple lies in the region referred to as Central Texas. In the 2010 Census, Temple's population was 66,102, an increase of more than 20 percent from the 2000 Census.

Temple is a "principal city" in the Killeen–Temple–Fort Hood Metropolitan Statistical Area. Located off Interstate 35, Temple is 65 miles north of Austin and 34 miles south of Waco.

- Wikipedia

City folk, maybe, but sure'n they ain't no urban folk thereabouts.

The city of Temple has a police department.

http://www.ci.temple.tx.us/index.aspx?NID=138

They get paid just under $20 per hour, which is about the town average, actually.

They are high school graduates with honorable military discharges and also 12 hours (3 or 4 course) of college and also a background investigation.

The downside - if it is - comes from the fact that they have a SWAT team and a Hostage Rescue team, but no Ombudsman for the community, no easy way to lodge a complaint or even ask a question. Only on the police chief's page, did I find a like to cwilcox@templetx.gov for emailing the department. Searching the site for WILCOX was unproductive. So, we have a town where the police are so effective that no one complains, but where on an alarmingly regular basis, people are taken hostage by heavily armed criminal gangs. No wonder they stopped the guy with the gun...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Glenn Beck interviewed the guy this morning.

It looks like Texas is about to be hit with a whopping civil rights suit.

Glenn basically grilled the guy to make sure he was firm in his conviction that he did nothing wrong, then said several times that the only way to get the government to pay attention and make changes on something like this was to sue it for millions of dollars. And he asked the guy to stay on the phone after the interview to talk to his staff.

Michael

[dennislmay]

Glenn Beck interviewed the guy this morning.

It looks like Texas is about to be hit with a whopping civil rights suit.

Glenn basically grilled the guy to make sure he was firm in his conviction that he did nothing wrong, then said several times that the only way to get the government to pay attention and make changes on something like this was to sue it for millions of dollars. And he asked the guy to stay on the phone after the interview to talk to his staff.

Michael

I'll have to try to watch that later on The Blaze, I was listening on SiriusXM on a long delay and lost signal on the Internet.

[dennislmay]

Dennis, you pound that urban thing. You are no more a hillbilly than I am: you just think it's cool to wear the mantle of Jed Clampitt.

I went to high school in a very very rural area of Nebraska but unknown to me at the time that part of rural Nebraska was many years ahead of most of the rest of the country in many ways. Nebraska hasn't changed a bit so Missouri has almost caught up 30+ years later. When I was 17 I went to a NSF Summer Camp of Physics at Drake University - my first eye opener about how I didn't miss a thing being from rural Nebraska. When I was 20 I was the 7 state area representative to the Society of Physics students - going to Washington DC and Baltimore. 2nd time I realized I didn't miss a thing. I still view much of what goes on in urban areas as backwards, behind the times and often plain bad news.

The downside - if it is - comes from the fact that they have a SWAT team and a Hostage Rescue team, but no Ombudsman for the community, no easy way to lodge a complaint or even ask a question. Only on the police chief's page, did I find a like to cwilcox@templetx.gov for emailing the department. Searching the site for WILCOX was unproductive. So, we have a town where the police are so effective that no one complains, but where on an alarmingly regular basis, people are taken hostage by heavily armed criminal gangs. No wonder they stopped the guy with the gun...

Many of the locals here have been to Iraq and Afghanistan - I wouldn't blink seeing someone come in with an M60 and a full belt. They would either be showing off or want some repair work done. Advice to Texas cops - lighten up Francis.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

I went to high school in a very very rural area of Nebraska...

http://goo.gl/maps/8xubo

The house I lived in during High School - zoom out to see how rural.

Dennis

[syrakusos]

OK, Jed, I stand corrected, you do come from the back of beyond. I zoomed out so much my back touched the Moon and I still did not see Omaha. I can understand why you do not like the city.

To me, the city is civilization, by definition. Also, I know now that as far as crime goes, largely the numbers are about the same city versus country. Large differences giving the country a patina of purity come from under-reporting. We all have stories, but the plural of anecdote is not data. I am sure that you feel comfortable and confident in an environment similar to the one you grew up in. So do I. ... in any city on Earth ...

[syrakusos]

Many of the locals here have been to Iraq and Afghanistan - I wouldn't blink seeing someone come in with an M60 and a full belt. They would either be showing off or want some repair work done. Advice to Texas cops - lighten up Francis. Dennis

There, too, perhaps, as the plaintiff describes himself as "active military" and the town is within the Fort Hood "metropolitan" (ahem) district. But, then, again, Ft. Hood is where that major went nuts and killed a bunch of people. So, maybe it is better that civilian law enforcement keep the military under control, if possible.

MSK: I do not see how "Texas is about to be hit with a whopping civil rights suit." These were city police.

Anyway, this guy simply forgot the simple rules of not getting your ass kicked by the police.

[caroljane]

Just watched the vid of the National Anthem being sung at the TD garden before the Bruins-Sabres game, the first major sporting event since the bombing. In tears.

[dennislmay]

OK, Jed, I stand corrected, you do come from the back of beyond. I zoomed out so much my back touched the Moon and I still did not see Omaha. I can understand why you do not like the city.

To me, the city is civilization, by definition. Also, I know now that as far as crime goes, largely the numbers are about the same city versus country. Large differences giving the country a patina of purity come from under-reporting. We all have stories, but the plural of anecdote is not data. I am sure that you feel comfortable and confident in an environment similar to the one you grew up in. So do I. ... in any city on Earth ...

I am comfortable in rural areas and GOOD towns and cities. There are shit-hole cities [baltimore, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago - ones I've been to], There are good cities [Omaha, Columbia, MO, Springfield, MO], and there are mixed cities [Dayton, Florida Panhandle cities]. Small villages vary as much as cities being good or shit towns. In all cases it comes down to how much corruption has been tolerated for how long. As far as under-reporting/false reporting it is a problem city and rural. In cities murder is reported as suicide, in rural areas drug overdoes become allergic issues, in rural areas death by hitting deer become reckless or drunk driving. The one biggie is missing children - in rural areas it is murder, in cities they are runaways. I knew people working a case in Omaha when I was in college and knew of other cases when I lived in Dayton. It really opened my eyes about how big the problem is.

Overall corruption of public officials is by far my biggest criminal concern. Sustained long term crime doesn't happen without it. Fix government official crime, keep people free, and most of the other problems go away.

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

I went to high school in a very very rural area of Nebraska...

http://goo.gl/maps/8xubo

The house I lived in during High School - zoom out to see how rural.

Dennis

Ah. Perfect for drone target practice.

--Brant

drones away!

[dennislmay]

I went to high school in a very very rural area of Nebraska...

http://goo.gl/maps/8xubo

The house I lived in during High School - zoom out to see how rural.

Dennis

Ah. Perfect for drone target practice.

--Brant

drones away!

Collateral damage - two cows, one horse, and a badger.

Dennis

[Brant Gaede]

Well, Dennis, that's the price we pay for freedom.

--Brant

[syrakusos]

David Lee Powell

Executed June 15, 2010 06:10 p.m. CDT by Lethal Injection in Texas

Summary:

Austin police officer Ralph Ablanedo, 26, pulled over a vehicle for not displaying a rear license plate. The driver, Sheila Meinert, 27, got out of the car and approached him. She told him she had lost her driver's license, but she showed him her passport. The officer asked the dispatcher by radio to check Meinert and her passenger, David Powell, 27, for outstanding warrants. The dispatcher informed Ablanedo that the computers were not functioning properly, but that there were no local warrants for Meinert. Ablanedo issued Meinert a citation for the license plate and allowed her to drive away. As she was pulling out, however, the dispatcher told Ablanedo that Powell had a possible warrant for misdemeanor theft. The dispatcher called for officer Bruce Mills, Ablanedo's partner, to go out to back up Ablanedo. Ablanedo stopped the vehicle again. As he was approaching the car, and Meinert was walking toward him, Powell shot at the officer through the back window with an AK-47 machine gun. Initially, the weapon was set to semiautomatic mode. Ablanedo tried to get up, but Powell switched the weapon to full automatic mode fired at him again. The car then left. Officer Mills arrived a few minutes later. Ablanedo had been shot ten times. Despite the fact that he was wearing a bulletproof vest, it was not designed to withstand fire from automatic weapons.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/powell1216.htm

[Brant Gaede]

An automatic rifle is not a machine gun. The Browning was the famous automatic rifle of WWII replaced by the M-14--both were designed for the European battlefield. Properly used they were more effective (and mobile) for long range shooting using burst fire with a bipod than a machine gun which needed crew service and more serious emplacement. The M-14 was displaced by the M-16 firing a high velocity .22 centerfire round. The first two mentioned automatic rifles fired the 7.62 NATO round similar to the .30-06. Most AK-47s fire a similar round. It was probably this round that the bulletproof vest couldn't protect the officer from. The US did have a light machine gun, the M-60 (replaced by the M240), firing the 7.62 with a bipod emplacement--a tripod was available--that is as much an assault rifle as a machine gun. It is not referenced as an assault rifle, however. The .30 cal machine gun of WWII and Korea vintage one might commonly think of as a machine gun was what we had on the bows of our airboats in Vietnam. It had a two-handed grip behind the receiver. The M-60 had a shoulder stock.

--Brant

[Selene]

Now this is the way to handle open carry folks who are demonstrating...

http://lastresistance.com/3250/youll-never-guess-happens-sheriff-confronts-3-open-carry-protesters/

The Constitution was written to restrain them, because the Founding Fathers understood the temptations of power that come with holding positions of authority. But we have spineless politicians who are never satisfied with the “limited” power they wield, so representatives in all branches of local, state and federal government are constantly reinterpreting the Constitution to accommodate their lusts for more power, which in turn takes freedoms and liberties away from the very people who put these “leaders” in their positions.

But there are a few good guys. Those who take their positions seriously, who recognize that their job is not to give themselves more power or to cover up their own scandals, but to work to preserve a free society by protecting people’s freedoms and getting an overreaching government out of the way. And there are good police officers too.

I have to say, this video completely took me off guard. Recently, we’ve seen so many open-carry protesters (or just ordinary citizens exercising their 2^nd Amendment rights) met with paranoid, power-hungry cops who end up arresting them for “disturbing the peace,” or “resisting arrest” all because they carried a Glock on their hip or a rifle on their shoulder.

Not this Michigan Sheriff, though. You have to see it to believe it:

Phenomenal job by the Sherriff and I learned something about our Constitution that I did not know.

A.....