Self-Esteem and Benevolence

[Brant Gaede]

So if you could live in a virtual reality and have a completely enjoyable life, while knowing the whole time it was not real, but that you would definitely not die for, say, 100 years... you would be happy with the unreal?

This is a contradiction for your "unreal" would be real too, just different. I'd worry and wonder about people and things left behind and the moral destruction I signed on for.

"To thine own self be true."

--Brant

[Dglgmut]

How would it be real? The synapses firing in your brain would be real, but the things you saw and experienced would not.

Let's just say you have no living connections to the real world in this scenario... Is there anything intrinsic to reality that you like better for the sole reason that it is real?

Again, what is it about reality that we like better?

[Brant Gaede]

How would it be real? The synapses firing in your brain would be real, but the things you saw and experienced would not.

Let's just say you have no living connections to the real world in this scenario... Is there anything intrinsic to reality that you like better for the sole reason that it is real?

Again, what is it about reality that we like better?

Anything I indicate you would then put into my brain sans existential referent achieving your apparent desire to win an argument through circularity. Then you could reverse the proposition. Regarding your question, I have no idea who "we" is or how he would deal with--answer your question. As for me, in reality-world reality goes. In unreality-world, anything goes. If reality is perfectly mimicked then nothing has changed. You see, if I accept your hypothetical you can't be pinned down; you'll just keep slip-sliding away. But let me try to answer your question anyway: Mystery and wonder and you not playing God with my life. I know, I failed the question; you can't fight Utopia even though Utopias are always instituted by blood and maintained by terror or it's all blabber. There, that's what I prefer in reality: I get to actually fight the Utopians who run around with guns trying to Utopianize people. Been there; done that.

--Brant

pulling teeth

[BaalChatzaf]

If the illusion is perfect then one could not know it was not real.

[Dglgmut]

If the illusion is perfect then one could not know it was not real.

But you would remember that you chose to be hooked up to the machine (for the benefit of knowing the rest of your life would be programmed to turn exactly how you want).

And Brant, hypothetical situations can be used to test one's philosophy and psychology... why wouldn't you want to honestly address the question? I don't know exactly why human beings (we) prefer reality over an illusion, but I'd like to because I think it is relevant to understanding what motivates us (human beings).

I'm not saying that all people want the same thing--because that purely depends on how particular or general we are speaking.

But then again, morality deals with the commonalities amongst human beings, or else it wouldn't be worth talking about.

[Brant Gaede]

If the illusion is perfect then one could not know it was not real.

But you would remember that you chose to be hooked up to the machine (for the benefit of knowing the rest of your life would be programmed to turn exactly how you want).

And Brant, hypothetical situations can be used to test one's philosophy and psychology... why wouldn't you want to honestly address the question? I don't know exactly why human beings (we) prefer reality over an illusion, but I'd like to because I think it is relevant to understanding what motivates us (human beings).

I'm not saying that all people want the same thing--because that purely depends on how particular or general we are speaking.

But then again, morality deals with the commonalities amongst human beings, or else it wouldn't be worth talking about.

I don't know "illusion"--whatever that is--I've a hard enough time knowing reality, and dealing with it, but that's why I'm here. You propose to destroy my here for your here. I would simply cease to function. What do I like about my reality? Me. You cannot equivalence it out if I know what is going on. In The Matrix the deluded didn't know they were deluded.

--Brant

[Dglgmut]

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

[Brant Gaede]

.

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

I don't want everything to happen the way I want. What I would want is jejune reality with no surprises. It's not just how you act but react to challenges and adversity. You are actually proposing a static world. I'd get more out of life by blowing my brains out. You can't make me want what I don't want and you can't make me pretend. Nobody gets to put me under their thumb. That goes for you, Bub. That's what this conversation is about. As for me not trying to answer--WTF! Are you some G-damn psychology student trolling for research for a term paper? You think I'm a rat in a maze? You've hardly given an iota of response to anything I've actually been saying.

--Brant

fin

[Dglgmut]

lol

Who says you wouldn't face challenges in your perfect Matrix life?

It's not the content that I'm discussing, but the fact that one is real and one is not.

You did bring up the fact that you would think about the people you left behind. Perhaps it is other people that is the most important part about reality to us.

Here's Nozick's conclusion, though I think it can be made clearer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine

Reasons not to plug in

Nozick provides us with three reasons not to plug into the machine.

1. We want to do certain things, and not just have the experience of doing them
   • "It is only because we first want to do the actions that we want the experiences of doing them." (Nozick, 43)
2. We want to be a certain sort of person
   • "Someone floating in a tank is an indeterminate blob." (Nozick, 43)
3. Plugging into an experience machine limits us to a man-made reality (it limits us to what we can make)
   • "There is no actual contact with any deeper reality, though the experience of it can be simulated." (Nozick, 43)

[anthony]

I used "that line" for demonstration purposes: to illustrate that statements like "Happiness comes from making others happy" in their absoluteness are a distortion of reality.

Anyone familiar with Rand's work knows this. Or has heard a very elaborate argument at the least.

But the opposite statement: "Happiness does not come come from making others happy" in its absoluteness would be a distortion of reality too.

"Happiness" being used most prosaically, I think, selling the concept short.

Can one satisfy a momentary and perceived need in an other, by word or act - sure. Should one openly acknowledge and respect his/her doings and character - of course, but that's only due them in justice.

Happiness conferred upon one by someone else is an impossibility: "making others" and "happy" is a contradiction in terms. It assumes omniscience of their full consciousness and presumes that you know best.

(There are those who are happy by your very existence, though I suspect that's not

the issue here.)

Happiness is not yours to give, but each person's to seek. It's as egoistical as it gets. Not surprising, Statists believe otherwise.

[BaalChatzaf]

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

It would not be real.

[Dglgmut]

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

It would not be real.

I'm thinking the "reality" factor really only comes into play when we consider other people. How can they reflect what is really us if they are not real themselves?

This is what we like about other people, I think, that they give us more feedback than anything else. When we act, and they react, we get a good look at ourselves from another perspective.

Men are naturally inclined to seek the respect of their peers. This is part of how we survived in gangs. This desire for respect entails that we desire to be honest with people, so that they can respect what is us, rather than what we pretend to be.

[anthony]

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

No way for me, and I reckon Brant's the same.

Men's minds need to meet that resistance called "reality", or else they'll rev past the red line, screaming in to insanity and explode.

[anthony]

If someone invented a machine like in The Matrix, and they could program it for you so that everything happened the way you would like, would you agree to be plugged in?

I'm guessing you would not, but you still haven't tried to answer why you would not.

It would not be real.

I'm thinking the "reality" factor really only comes into play when we consider other people. How can they reflect what is really us if they are not real themselves?

This is what we like about other people, I think, that they give us more feedback than anything else. When we act, and they react, we get a good look at ourselves from another perspective.

Men are naturally inclined to seek the respect of their peers. This is part of how we survived in gangs. This desire for respect entails that we desire to be honest with people, so that they can respect what is us, rather than what we pretend to be.

To get this straight: I am honest with you because I wish your respect so that

you'd be honest back at me and show me that which is really me?

Mirrors in mirrors, sounds like. At some levels, personal, professional, etc.,there is great stuff in getting feed-back from a person you KNOW to be astute

and honest. But that's because he's someone who's honest for his own sake - his

objective relation with reality.

Who'd trust anyone who gives you 'honesty' as they see fit, because there is some

benefit to be had from you?

I'm not sure primitive men related this way, but if so it was clear collectivism, not needed with men of reason.

Also, I'm more inclined to think we naturally, as species, look for acknowledgment

and recognition first and foremost from each other. "I see you". (Native American greeting, if I recall right.)

[Dglgmut]

Feedback is not necessarily deliberate. We see how our actions affect people whether they want us to see it or not.

You didn't get it straight... The honesty factor is that if I am not honest, the feedback I get for my actions is meaningless. If I want real feedback I have to be real.

[Peter]

Brant wrote:

You are actually proposing a static world.

end quote

One of the StarTrek movies that I love proposed a world called, The Nexus where ones deepest desires were fulfilled. For Mein Capitan Picard that was a reality where he had a wife and several children, all happily living within a beautiful, Victorian existence.

Q