Nazi's to Return

[dennislmay]

During Glenn Beck's radio show today he predicted that at least one nation in the world will be controlled by Nazi's in the next five years. Germany is about to do away with laws outlawing the Nazi Party and other radical political parties. Nazi's in Cyprus presently enjoy 26% support.

In the last year or two I've heard that Hitler and the Nazi Party are enjoying a popular resurgence particularly in Muslim and East Asian nations. Hitler is being portrayed in a positive light in many areas of the world with trading cards, t-shirts, and popular advertising.

With economic collapse imminent it would not be surprising that the Nazi recipe to power and branding would come back.

Dennis

[Dglgmut]

But hasn't the species evolved since the last time Nazis were in power?! History is history; not relevant at all to today's advanced humans.

[dennislmay]

But hasn't the species evolved since the last time Nazis were in power?! History is history; not relevant at all to today's advanced humans.

In F.A. Hayek's "The Counter-Revolution of Science" he explains that Fascism is the socialist path to eventual Communism when starting from an educated Western nation with private property and the rule of law.

Communist China and the Soviet Union could not compete economically/technologically as long as there was a free West. If Russia, China, and the West all move to a Fascist-like model they can tighten the screws across the world towards universal communism. As long as there is no outside competition or places to escape to Communists can rule indefinitely. They never actually achieve communist ideals because an underground economy is required to actually produce what is needed for minimal survival. As Wilkow says: Socialism is for the people, not the Socialists [the power elite is immune]. So after Fascism you only have corrupt communism as the final lowest common denominator of minimal human existence under authoritarian rule.

Dennis

[Jerry Biggers]

To those interested in this book, The Counter-revolution of Science, by F.A. Hayek, it is available as a FREE download from Barnes & Noble ( bn.com) for The NOOK - (or their compatible software - also free - for download and reading on your PC). This is a digitized copy from the 1955 edition, so it may have some "optical" errors (a wrong letter or other character) but that does not usually detract from its readability. Anyway, it's FREE.

Unfortunately, Amazon has not yet made it available for its "Kindle." They do have the "real" book though. If buying the book, look for the LIBERTY FUND version, which has been reset.with some other additions.

Additionally, on America and "fascism," don't miss Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism (the just-issued paperback has a new "Afterword," with a detailed discussion of positive and negative reactions (the book caused a firestorm of attacks from the Left) to the book.

Also, there's Leonard Peikoff's The Ominous Parallels on the same subject. Actually, since Rand made poor Leonard re-write the book innumerable times (this is discussed in all 3 bios of Rand), you might as well say that Rand wrote it.

,

But hasn't the species evolved since the last time Nazis were in power?! History is history; not relevant at all to today's advanced humans.

In F.A. Hayek's "The Counter-Revolution of Science" he explains that Fascism is the socialist path to eventual Communism when starting from an educated Western nation with private property and the rule of law.

Communist China and the Soviet Union could not compete economically/technologically as long as there was a free West. If Russia, China, and the West all move to a Fascist-like model they can tighten the screws across the world towards universal communism. As long as there is no outside competition or places to escape to Communists can rule indefinitely. They never actually achieve communist ideals because an underground economy is required to actually produce what is needed for minimal survival. As Wilkow says: Socialism is for the people, not the Socialists [the power elite is immune]. So after Fascism you only have corrupt communism as the final lowest common denominator of minimal human existence under authoritarian rule.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

To those interested in this book, The Counter-revolution of Science, by F.A. Hayek, it is available as a FREE download from Barnes & Noble ( bn.com) for The NOOK - (or their compatible software - also free - for download and reading on your PC). This is a digitized copy from the 1955 edition, so it may have some "optical" errors (a wrong letter or other character) but that does not usually detract from its readability. Anyway, it's FREE.

Unfortunately, Amazon has not yet made it available for its "Kindle." They do have the "real" book though. If buying the book, look for the LIBERTY FUND version, which has been reset.with some other additions.

Additionally, on America and "fascism," don't miss Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism (the just-issued paperback has a new "Afterword," with a detailed discussion of positive and negative reactions (the book caused a firestorm of attacks from the Left) to the book.

Also, there's Leonard Peikoff's The Ominous Parallels on the same subject. Actually, since Rand made poor Leonard re-write the book innumerable times (this is discussed in all 3 bios of Rand), you might as well say that Rand wrote it.

,

But hasn't the species evolved since the last time Nazis were in power?! History is history; not relevant at all to today's advanced humans.

In F.A. Hayek's "The Counter-Revolution of Science" he explains that Fascism is the socialist path to eventual Communism when starting from an educated Western nation with private property and the rule of law.

Communist China and the Soviet Union could not compete economically/technologically as long as there was a free West. If Russia, China, and the West all move to a Fascist-like model they can tighten the screws across the world towards universal communism. As long as there is no outside competition or places to escape to Communists can rule indefinitely. They never actually achieve communist ideals because an underground economy is required to actually produce what is needed for minimal survival. As Wilkow says: Socialism is for the people, not the Socialists [the power elite is immune]. So after Fascism you only have corrupt communism as the final lowest common denominator of minimal human existence under authoritarian rule.

Dennis

The version of The Counter-revolution of Science I have has some minor printer errors and unless you read German and French some of the footnotes aren't going to do you any good. It is a valuable discussion of the history and development of socialism from all angles and talks about many things modern Progressives would not like discussed. It has amazed me that many objectivists and libertarians don't seem to understand many of Hayeks points - the most obvious being that fascists - like communists - are socialists too. Something I fully understood when I was in high school but somehow the popular media has been drinking Progressive Kool-Aid for too many generations - poisoning rational discussion.

[PDS]

It is one thing for a bunch of malcontents to call themselves "nazis" in this day and age. It is quite another for a country to have a ruling party expressly based upon such a label and/or idealogy.

I highly doubt that there will be an expressly Nazi regime in the next 5 years. There may be a new regime with Nazi influences and overtones, but it would be named something else, and how, in all honesty, would that be a difference in kind than most Western democracies?

I generally like Beck, but he has been warning that we all will be imminently living in the Chateau d'if for far too long now.

[Reidy]

As I recall this book it's a study of how fake-scientific rationalism (or fake-rational scientism) gave rise to modern totalitarianism. Hence the title. It's worth reading in any case.

Hayek's discussion of St. Simon's Parable would interest this readership, since, to judge from what Hayek says, St. Simon hit on the idea of Atlas Shrugged more than a century before Rand. I've always wondered if she knew anything about the Parable.

[dennislmay]

It is one thing for a bunch of malcontents to call themselves "nazis" in this day and age. It is quite another for a country to have a ruling party expressly based upon such a label and/or idealogy.

I highly doubt that there will be an expressly Nazi regime in the next 5 years. There may be a new regime with Nazi influences and overtones, but it would be named something else, and how, in all honesty, would that be a difference in kind than most Western democracies?

I generally like Beck, but he has been warning that we all will be imminently living in the Chateau d'if for far too long now.

Some places calling yourself Nazi is a plus, other places not so much. It might seem crazy here in the US but in other places in the world the term Nazi doesn't have the baggage it does here. Logically socialist and certainly communist should carry more baggage than Nazi but our media is chosen to ignore communist death camps in favor of emphasizing fascist death camps though the communists killed more people by far.

Beck is a late bloomer on the subject - a fellow student when I was in college was as well versed and very vocal about everything Beck is saying today back in the 1981-1983 time frame. I've heard it all before - Reagan delayed the problems hitting the fan, then the Republicans taking the house in the midterms during Clinton's first term delayed it again. Now the delayed recogning is arriving. It is possible another delay could happen but it is increasingly unlikely. Beck is just calling them as he sees them from what information can be gathered. Events can still go any of several ways.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

As I recall this book it's a study of how fake-scientific rationalism (or fake-rational scientism) gave rise to modern totalitarianism. Hence the title. It's worth reading in any case.

Hayek's discussion of St. Simon's Parable would interest this readership, since, to judge from what Hayek says, St. Simon hit on the idea of Atlas Shrugged more than a century before Rand. I've always wondered if she knew anything about the Parable.

George H. Smith recommended I read The Counter-revolution of Science for the scientism content but the book is very light on science content and contains some errors and misperceptions common at the time time it was written. Rather it is a major work on the history and foundations of socialist thought including fascism and communism from their roots to the rise of the Progressives, Nazis and modern communism.

Dennis

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

David (PDS),

You mean something like Golden Dawn is just "a bunch of malcontents"?

Heh.

You also might want to take a look at recent bestseller lists in certain Muslim countries, including large relatively Western-friendly ones like Turkey, and see if you can find Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. Believe it or not, you can.

Glenn Beck was criticized in your terms when he predicted the Arab Spring, when he said Islamists and leftist would join forces there, when he talked about the Caliphate as the driving dream behind the Islamists, when he showed that George Soros has a gazillion front groups for funneling money to left-wing efforts, and a whole lot of things that are now discussed as normal.

People screamed he was crazy when he came out with these observations. Then they adopted them. There's a butt-load of other correct predictions and dot-connecting Glenn has done. Ironically, I believe some people were convinced when they looked at the facts, but many adopted them because they were going along with others who adopted them.

Glenn himself says he has a high batting average on his predictions for large social issues, and he stinks on ice when he predicts things like elections.

I can easily see Nazism returning to places where economic chaos gets installed and a strongman shows up.

It wouldn't be supported by our generation, but think about what the younger folks have been learning. To them, Nazism is equivalent to ancient Rome or pirate stories or the Confederacy. It's distant history with romantic images of battles. From their perspective, Nazism even has cool symbols, rituals, etc., and works well for first-person shooter video game environments.

These people vote.

Michael

[Reidy]

Yes, The Counter-Revolution of Science is light on science. After all, it's a book about political ideas and their history. It's heavy on scientism, though, and on the false analogies of human affairs to engineering and to physical science which got abroad in the early nineteenth century and which (Hayek claims) gave rise to socialism. I exhort the OL readership to check this out by reading the book.

This is not to say that Hayek's analysis is correct. What are the errors and misperceptions you find there? Are you saying that he's wrong as a historian? If he's wrong about his titular thesis, couldn't he also be wrong about the points you're citing?

[PDS]

David (PDS),

You mean something like Golden Dawn is just "a bunch of malcontents"?

Heh.

You also might want to take a look at recent bestseller lists in certain Muslim countries, including large relatively Western-friendly ones like Turkey, and see if you can find Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. Believe it or not, you can.

Glenn Beck was criticized in your terms when he predicted the Arab Spring, when he said Islamists and leftist would join forces there, when he talked about the Caliphate as the driving dream behind the Islamists, when he showed that George Soros has a gazillion front groups for funneling money to left-wing efforts, and a whole lot of things that are now discussed as normal.

People screamed he was crazy when he came out with these observations. Then they adopted them. There's a butt-load of other correct predictions and dot-connecting Glenn has done. Ironically, I believe some people were convinced when they looked at the facts, but many adopted them because they were going along with others who adopted them.

Glenn himself says he has a high batting average on his predictions for large social issues, and he stinks on ice when he predicts things like elections.

I can easily see Nazism returning to places where economic chaos gets installed and a strongman shows up.

It wouldn't be supported by our generation, but think about what the younger folks have been learning. To them, Nazism is equivalent to ancient Rome or pirate stories or the Confederacy. It's distant history with romantic images of battles. From their perspective, Nazism even has cool symbols, rituals, etc., and works well for first-person shooter video game environments.

These people vote.

Michael

I knew my comment was running the risk of tweaking the Beck fans around here.

Whether made in Ominous Parallels or on Beck's shows, the threats of a Nazi takeover have, thankfully, have been a pretty good whiff of nothing.

The interesting question here is whether a government (as opposed to a group of malcontents and hippies with short haircuts responding courageously to poll questions and/or risking little or nothing by engaging in vigorous "marches") would actually come to power and call itself Nazi.

Ain't gonna happen in 5 years.

Will the Dumbshit Factor continue to increase throughout the world in the next 5 years? LIkely. Does that translate into a Nazi regime anywhere? Not likely.

[dennislmay]

David (PDS),

You mean something like Golden Dawn is just "a bunch of malcontents"?

Heh.

You also might want to take a look at recent bestseller lists in certain Muslim countries, including large relatively Western-friendly ones like Turkey, and see if you can find Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. Believe it or not, you can.

Glenn Beck was criticized in your terms when he predicted the Arab Spring, when he said Islamists and leftist would join forces there, when he talked about the Caliphate as the driving dream behind the Islamists, when he showed that George Soros has a gazillion front groups for funneling money to left-wing efforts, and a whole lot of things that are now discussed as normal.

People screamed he was crazy when he came out with these observations. Then they adopted them. There's a butt-load of other correct predictions and dot-connecting Glenn has done. Ironically, I believe some people were convinced when they looked at the facts, but many adopted them because they were going along with others who adopted them.

Glenn himself says he has a high batting average on his predictions for large social issues, and he stinks on ice when he predicts things like elections.

I can easily see Nazism returning to places where economic chaos gets installed and a strongman shows up.

It wouldn't be supported by our generation, but think about what the younger folks have been learning. To them, Nazism is equivalent to ancient Rome or pirate stories or the Confederacy. It's distant history with romantic images of battles. From their perspective, Nazism even has cool symbols, rituals, etc., and works well for first-person shooter video game environments.

These people vote.

Michael

You can watch hundreds of hours of documentaries about WWII that imply the Germans were pulling off an economic miracle and Hitler just over-reached. In only one documentary did I ever see it discussed that Fascist economics entirely depending [like all socialism] on finding more and more victims to rob as you continue to run out of other people's money. Hollywood has produced many romantic images implying an underlying truth in the German superman image - if you don't understand the unsustainable nature of the German war machine and economic miracle you really don't understand it for the violent Ponzi scheme it was.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

David (PDS),

You mean something like Golden Dawn is just "a bunch of malcontents"?

Heh.

You also might want to take a look at recent bestseller lists in certain Muslim countries, including large relatively Western-friendly ones like Turkey, and see if you can find Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. Believe it or not, you can.

Glenn Beck was criticized in your terms when he predicted the Arab Spring, when he said Islamists and leftist would join forces there, when he talked about the Caliphate as the driving dream behind the Islamists, when he showed that George Soros has a gazillion front groups for funneling money to left-wing efforts, and a whole lot of things that are now discussed as normal.

People screamed he was crazy when he came out with these observations. Then they adopted them. There's a butt-load of other correct predictions and dot-connecting Glenn has done. Ironically, I believe some people were convinced when they looked at the facts, but many adopted them because they were going along with others who adopted them.

Glenn himself says he has a high batting average on his predictions for large social issues, and he stinks on ice when he predicts things like elections.

I can easily see Nazism returning to places where economic chaos gets installed and a strongman shows up.

It wouldn't be supported by our generation, but think about what the younger folks have been learning. To them, Nazism is equivalent to ancient Rome or pirate stories or the Confederacy. It's distant history with romantic images of battles. From their perspective, Nazism even has cool symbols, rituals, etc., and works well for first-person shooter video game environments.

These people vote.

Michael

I knew my comment was running the risk of tweaking the Beck fans around here.

Whether made in Ominous Parallels or on Beck's shows, the threats of a Nazi takeover have, thankfully, have been a pretty good whiff of nothing.

The interesting question here is whether a government (as opposed to a group of malcontents and hippies with short haircuts responding courageously to poll questions and/or risking little or nothing by engaging in vigorous "marches") would actually come to power and call itself Nazi.

Ain't gonna happen in 5 years.

Will the Dumbshit Factor continue to increase throughout the world in the next 5 years? LIkely. Does that translate into a Nazi regime anywhere? Not likely.

There are already nations with higher percentage of Nazi sympthetic populatons than the percentage that supported the American Revolution [something Beck discussed today]. The same could be said of the Russian Revolution and other revolutions. Once you hit 20% the danger is very real and Cyprus is already 26% - Muslim nations ever higher where the Nazi influences never really left.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

Yes, The Counter-Revolution of Science is light on science. After all, it's a book about political ideas and their history. It's heavy on scientism, though, and on the false analogies of human affairs to engineering and to physical science which got abroad in the early nineteenth century and which (Hayek claims) gave rise to socialism. I exhort the OL readership to check this out by reading the book.

This is not to say that Hayek's analysis is correct. What are the errors and misperceptions you find there? Are you saying that he's wrong as a historian? If he's wrong about his titular thesis, couldn't he also be wrong about the points you're citing?

The fundamental errors of central planning revolve around adequate information and reactions to central planning attempts - something many "social engineers" don't understand because they are illiterate engineers and scientists when it comes to information systems.

Dennis

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Will the Dumbshit Factor continue to increase throughout the world in the next 5 years? LIkely. Does that translate into a Nazi regime anywhere? Not likely.

David,

What would you call a person who does not look at information placed right in front of him, but calls any filtering of it that does not fit his belief narrative "dumbshit"?

Michael

[Jerry Biggers]

The rather startling similarity between Saint-Simon's "The Parable" and the theme of Atlas Shrugged, does bring up the question of whether Rand had ever read it, planting the seed in her mind. That she had been exposed to Saint-Simon when she was at theUniversity of St. Petersburg in Russia, would not be surprising. At the time she was at the university, Russia had already gone communist and they were certainly eager to establish that Marxism-Leninism was the correct and most advanced version of socialism. Engels' Socialism From Utopia To Science, which discusses pre-Marxian socialism, did include Saint-Simon. and was most likely on the required reading list.It would not be surprising if copies of Saint-Simon's writings were also available.

The Parable which was widely distributed and talked about in Paris, caught the attention of the authorities, who had him arrested as a dangerous revolutionary, possibly plotting to overthrow the government. He was jailed, but a lot of quick talking at his trial got him exonerated. However, despite The Parable, Saint-Simon's brief flirtation with laissez-faire soon ended.

Here is "The Parable." See what its theme reminds you of!

http://www.economictheories.org/2008/11/saint-simon-and-industrialism.html

"Let us suppose," says he, that France suddenly loses fifty of her first-class doctors, fifty first-class chemists, fifty first-class physiologists, fifty first-class bankers two hundred of her best merchants, six hundred of her foremost agriculturists, five hundred of her most capable ironmasters, etc. [enumerating the principal industries]. Seeing that these men are its most indispensable producers, makers of its most important products, the minute that it loses these the nation will degenerate into a mere soulless body and fall into a state of despicable weakness in the eyes of rival nations, and will remain in this subordinate position so long as the loss remains and their places are vacant. Let us take another supposition. Imagine that France retains all her men of genius, whether in the arts and sciences or in the crafts and industries, but has the misfortune to lose on the same day the king's brother, the Duke of Angouleme, and all the other members of the royal family; all the great officers of the Grown; all ministers of State, whether at the head of a department or not; all the Privy Councillors; all the masters of requests; all the marshals, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, grand vicars and canons; all prefects and sub-prefects; all Government employees; all the judges; and on top of that a hundred thousand proprietors—the cream of her nobility. Such an overwhelming catastrophe would certainly aggrieve the French, for they are a kindly-disposed nation. But the loss of a hundred and thirty thousand of the best-reputed individuals in the State would give rise to sorrow of a purely sentimental kind. It would not cause the community the least inconvenience.

In other words, the official Government is a mere facade. Its action is wholly superficial. Society might exist without it and life would be none the less happy. But the disappearance of the savants, industrial leaders, bankers, and merchants would leave the community crippled. The very sources of wealth would dry up, for their activities are really fruitful and necessary. They are the true governors who wield real power. Such was the parable.

http://www.economictheories.org/2008/11/saint-simon-and-industrialism.html

Scarlett: History of Economic Thought, "From Saint-Simon to Industrialism"

As I recall this book it's a study of how fake-scientific rationalism (or fake-rational scientism) gave rise to modern totalitarianism. Hence the title. It's worth reading in any case.

Hayek's discussion of St. Simon's Parable would interest this readership, since, to judge from what Hayek says, St. Simon hit on the idea of Atlas Shrugged more than a century before Rand. I've always wondered if she knew anything about the Parable.

[PDS]

Will the Dumbshit Factor continue to increase throughout the world in the next 5 years? LIkely. Does that translate into a Nazi regime anywhere? Not likely.

David,

What would you call a person who does not look at information placed right in front of him, but calls any filtering of it that does not fit his belief narrative "dumbshit"?

Michael

MSK:

Here are some possible names such a person could be called:

1. Someone without unlimited time on his hands, and had no intention of offending anybody by not agreeing with Glenn Beck. Or,

2. Someone who is a student of history and has lived 50 years in a post World War II world and doesn't find a Nazi regime lurking around too many corners. Or,

3. Someone who writes fairly precisely and does not believe a "Nazi regime" is (1) likely (this means more than 50% probable) to come to power, and (2) will actually call itself a Nazi regime.*

4. Someone who thinks a very easy thing to do on the Internet is make predictions about the future without bearing any consequences for such predictions.**

*As I said above, this is because said regime would never have the balls/need/utility to actually call itself Nazi.

**On point 4, I am willing to make a friendly wager with anybody willing to predict that an expressly Nazi regime will arise in the next 5 years. Assuming we are around in 5 years.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

David,

I notice in your names you totally left out: "Someone who looks at the information presented."

Your names can almost all can be paraphrased as: "Someone with a prejudice and pleased about it."

Michael

[PDS]

David,

I notice in your names you totally left out: "Someone who looks at the information presented."

Your names can almost all can be paraphrased as: "Someone with a prejudice and pleased about it."

Michael

Hmmm. Other than sort of calling me a dumbshit and prejudiced, do you still think I might have an argument?

Up above, in post #10, you posted a link to a wiki article on "Golden Dawn." Not wanting to be accused, even in your good-natured fashion, of more ingorance, I went and read it. Here would seem to be two salient features of "Golden Dawn":

1. "Scholars and media describe it as neo-Nazi^[3][5][6] and fascist,^[7][8] although the group rejects these labels.^[9]" This proves my point: within 5 years, no alleged Nazi regime is going to call itself a Nazi regime.

2. "The party ran a campaign during the Greek national elections of 2012 based on concerns for unemployment, austerity and the economy, as well as virulent anti-immigration rhetoric, which gained a large increase in support from the Greek electorate.^[18] It received seven percent of the popular vote, enough for the party to enter the Hellenic Parliament for the first time with 21 seats.^[19] Following a second election in June, this was reduced to 18 seats." This would also seem to prove my point: if "Golden Dawn" is the harbinger of a coming Nazi regime, it would seem to be trending in the wrong direction.

What I am concerned about here is a variation of Godwin's Law, i.e., the glibness with which some are willing to make Nazi comparisons. That really is the heart of the matter.

The title of the present thread is "Nazi's To Return," not "More Dumb People Are Self-Identifying As Nazis Here and There." The former title and the Beck premise is that some nation somewhere will have a Nazi regime.

If anybody cares, the reason I take issue with the Beck premise is because I think it downgrades the severe, exceptional nature of an the actual Nazi regime of Hitler's Germany. That exceptional nature has many elements to it, including what Carl Jung considered the contorted mythology of a collective Aryian unconscious as related to Hitler, but not, for instance, Mussolini. This is but one example, but to arm-chair and other students of Jung, this is a pretty important example. And there are many, many others. Another exceptional quality is, as pretty much everybody knows, the outcome of World War I and its impact on the German economy. Another is the fact that three Jews (Einstein, Freud, and Lenin) had pretty much turned the world on its head in the generation preceding the Nazi rise to power.

The list can go and on. Thus my skepticism about the title of the post.

[dennislmay]

David,

I notice in your names you totally left out: "Someone who looks at the information presented."

Your names can almost all can be paraphrased as: "Someone with a prejudice and pleased about it."

Michael

Hmmm. Other than sort of calling me a dumbshit and prejudiced, do you still think I might have an argument?

Up above, in post #10, you posted a link to a wiki article on "Golden Dawn." Not wanting to be accused, even in your good-natured fashion, of more ingorance, I went and read it. Here would seem to be two salient features of "Golden Dawn":

1. "Scholars and media describe it as neo-Nazi^[3][5][6] and fascist,^[7][8] although the group rejects these labels.^[9]" This proves my point: within 5 years, no alleged Nazi regime is going to call itself a Nazi regime.

2. "The party ran a campaign during the Greek national elections of 2012 based on concerns for unemployment, austerity and the economy, as well as virulent anti-immigration rhetoric, which gained a large increase in support from the Greek electorate.^[18] It received seven percent of the popular vote, enough for the party to enter the Hellenic Parliament for the first time with 21 seats.^[19] Following a second election in June, this was reduced to 18 seats." This would also seem to prove my point: if "Golden Dawn" is the harbinger of a coming Nazi regime, it would seem to be trending in the wrong direction.

What I am concerned about here is a variation of Godwin's Law, i.e., the glibness with which some are willing to make Nazi comparisons. That really is the heart of the matter.

The title of the present thread is "Nazi's To Return," not "More Dumb People Are Self-Identifying As Nazis Here and There." The former title and the Beck premise is that some nation somewhere will have a Nazi regime.

If anybody cares, the reason I take issue with the Beck premise is because I think it downgrades the severe, exceptional nature of an the actual Nazi regime of Hitler's Germany. That exceptional nature has many elements to it, including what Carl Jung considered the contorted mythology of a collective Aryian unconscious as related to Hitler, but not, for instance, Mussolini. This is but one example, but to arm-chair and other students of Jung, this is a pretty important example. And there are many, many others. Another exceptional quality is, as pretty much everybody knows, the outcome of World War I and its impact on the German economy. Another is the fact that three Jews (Einstein, Freud, and Lenin) had pretty much turned the world on its head in the generation preceding the Nazi rise to power.

The list can go and on. Thus my skepticism about the title of the post.

The argument seems to primarily rest on the exact use of proper names. Whether or not someone is actually a Nazi doesn't not depend on them using the exact name.

For instance I know Obama would never openly say he is at heart a Maoist Revolutionary - that does not change what he is.

The very practical Nazi's embraced fellow travelers such as Fascist Italy, Islamo-Fascists, the Empire of Japan, and American Progressives among others.

The 5 year prediction Beck made is on substance - to what degree a Nazi Party arrives in power again and the exact names, philosophy and symbols used will no doubt vary with the location and individuals involved. Just as the Communist Party varies by location and the people involved so would reconstituted Fascism.

Fascism exists to a certain degree in many places without being so named. So if Cyprus falls to the Nazzi Party lead by Adolpho Hilter I say Beck called it right.

Dennis

[BaalChatzaf]

Here is the 25 point programme that Hiller laid out for the Nazi's to implement when they took power. He formulated this while in imprison and is a subchapter of his book -Mein Kampf- (My Struggle). See how many steps of the program are identical too or consistent with the programs of the Progressives from Woodrow Wilson through to Roosevelt and beyond even unto our very own Lord Obama.

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.
2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crimeagainst the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.^[11]
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

This was extracted from the Wiki Article on the Nazi programm

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This list is best read to the strains of "Hail to the Chief" or the Hoerst Wessel Song whichever is your preference

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

If you guys are going to discuss Nazi-ism I suggest you read -Mein Kampf- either in German or translated. See what the Nazi in his pure form.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[jts]

According to Craig Winn, Hitler was influenced by Islam.

http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_16_Mein_Kampf.Islam

You can read the pdf or listen to the mp3.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Hmmm. Other than sort of calling me a dumbshit and prejudiced, do you still think I might have an argument?

David,

Heh.

Nobody called you a dipshit.

But look at it. I wasn't the one who started slinging "dipshit" around to categorize the intellectual "factor" adhered to by those who think differently. That term is yours. It just doesn't sound as funny or clever coming the other way, does it?

And "prejudice" is a correct way to characterize comments that put down others (you know, those who disagree, thus harbor a "dipshit factor" in their intellect) without looking at what they are saying--which is what you were doing. I'm not trying to be contrary qua contrary, but throwing the spotlight on this at least encouraged you to look. You've got a great mind, so I was interested in your ideas, not your snark.

I believe you are one of the good guys, so this is a tempest in a teapot. I just get ornery at times because I do not march to the drummer where I get pleasure from looking down on large groups of humans I believe are my intellectual inferiors (thinking about them as fundamentalist backwater hillbillies or wacko conspiracy freaks or dipshits) and commenting about it as my main substance.

I march to a different drummer.

If anybody cares, the reason I take issue with the Beck premise is because I think it downgrades the severe, exceptional nature of an the actual Nazi regime of Hitler's Germany. That exceptional nature has many elements to it, including what Carl Jung considered the contorted mythology of a collective Aryian unconscious as related to Hitler, but not, for instance, Mussolini. This is but one example, but to arm-chair and other students of Jung, this is a pretty important example. And there are many, many others. Another exceptional quality is, as pretty much everybody knows, the outcome of World War I and its impact on the German economy. Another is the fact that three Jews (Einstein, Freud, and Lenin) had pretty much turned the world on its head in the generation preceding the Nazi rise to power.

The list can go and on. Thus my skepticism about the title of the post.

Now you're talking. This is the good stuff. Definitely anti-dipshit material.

I'm not so sure about going whole hog with Jung, but I do agree that the core mythological storyline was a part of Nazism and that made it far more dangerous than Mussolini's fascism. Here's a comment from a few months ago where I was comparing core myths on a Jungian level to epistemological morphic resonance.

In other words, in large crowds, I believe these myths do not just reflect the psyche, they also help shape it. It's only a hypothesis, but one that I believe merits some serious mulling. Maybe not biologically, but definitely culturally.

I'm beginning to believe that THE STORY is some kind of epistemological morphic field that gives shape to the mind to filter out parts of reality. I certainly see something akin to morphic resonance when crowds start getting lathered up and the same mis-attributions keep being repeated in face of situations where they are the contrary.

I have seen really good people do really stupid things--and evil things--in crowds. Do you think Hitler didn't know how to manipulate such a field? I say he did. It started with THE STORY. In his case, a strong component of THE STORY was Ayrians once ruled the world, but lost power because they started breeding with lesser humans and are now being kept servile so they don't discover their true strength and take their rightful place once again. Look what happened from within that morphic field (if such be a morphic field--I'm just calling it that right now to be a smart-ass ).

In short, I agree with you that many Nazi-like surges that are happening all around the world right now are not as rich in roots as Hitler's Nazism was, but I do see a distinct possibility of them growing such roots. The Internet here will be both a blessing and a plague.

We, on the good-guy side, are going to have to tell better stories--myth-like stories--to explain existence. (Rand made a hell of a good start.) Otherwise, the stories that once triggered large numbers to move because of economic hardships will come around again. They will fill the vacuum during times of stress simply because nothing else is there.

Large groups of suffering people always want to feel special, they always want to know why they are suffering and who will destroy their enemy, and they always want to go to a promised land. That's been mankind's history and I suspect it will continue to be for a long, long time to come.

Michael