Rand through a Nietzsche filter

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 15, 2012

Anamous,

I'm not against research. It's the academic part that bothers me.

There are too many parasites clogging up the works and vomiting out mountains of useless data with their little parasite games.

You want research? This is research: X Prize Foundation and Singularity University.

The guy behind this, Peter Diamandis, prompts students to start cutting-edge technology-based companies that will affect at least one billion lives within a decade. And he's succeeding beyond wildest expectations. Space travel. Medical diagnostics. The works.

Call that a real-life threat to "serious academic research" with all its badges, brownie points, publish or die crap and insider clubs living on government handouts.

Below is a TED Talk that gives the spirit and vision of DIY (do it yourself) innovators mixed with capitalism at its finest. This is what is actually changing the world we live in--not some stuffy academics worried about how to play politics to guarantee their salaries.

Ironically, this DIY spirit provides the "serious academic research" folks the abundance and tools they need with which to become the trivial distractions and playthings of the world's elite. The powerful folks have their insecurities, too, (sniff sniff) and they sometimes feel the urge to play at being intellectually "serious." So they prop up some "serious academic research" to scratch their itches.

Then after they get bored, they try to pass the bill off to taxpayers though this government or that. Or they bully the "serious academic research" parasites into coughing up skewed data that they can use for their political power games (like the climate change debacle).

Here is a young Atlas--one of many--who carries those parasites on his back:

<param name="movie" value="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf"></param>'>http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf"></param>

</object>

Now that's "serious research."

Not all "serious academic research" is parasitical, of course. But enough of it is to make "serious academic research" become a synonym for a kowtowing leech culture in a phony intellectual wrapper.

Michael

seymourblogger · March 15, 2012

Serious academic research is the kind that gets you grants, tenure, career brownie points, more money, prestige, etc etc etc.
Badges for government handout parasites? Michael

Gee I thought I wasn't gonna get to say something nice to you MSK. This was funny.

Not all "serious academic research" is parasitical, of course. But enough of it is to make "serious academic research" become a synonym for a kowtowing leech culture in a phony intellectual wrapper.

Michael

This one was even better. 2 down and 3 to go.

seymourblogger · March 15, 2012

Michael,

Excellent examples of Lacanian "floating signs" acting as masks, Deterrence, you just gave m'boy.

I mean you've gotta give PhD's something to do to justify the student loans to get it, the "hard" work and all.

Yeh. It's all just Deterrence. A mask to hide the fact that it is primarily an "empty sign".

Now Robert Altemeyer's research on Authoritarianism, all done with his own money. Never wrote or got a grant. The basis of Conservatives Without Conscience - John Dean.

In free PDF format: http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf See how fucking nice I can be sometimes. BTW Altemeyer likes me. A lot.

seymourblogger · March 15, 2012

I think Darren is the same poster who posted here for awhile uder the screen name AristotlesAdvance arguing for Intelligent Design (and soon being limited to 5 posts a day).
I remember that one. Tedious + obnoxious. Hope he’s not coming back!
Darren knows better than to argue for Intelligent Design, so it could not be darren you are theorizing about.

x-ray sorry I changed my mind. Your being alive is PROOF of Intelligent Design.

Let's do a test run.....

Let's not and say we did.

Xray · March 15, 2012

Janet,

Is there some glitch in your blog?

I put two comments there (the one with the "test run" and another one replying to Darren about thermodynamics), but they don't show up anymore.

But maybe I just can't retrieve them. TIA for your help.

I find forums far more comfortable to navigate than blogs, where one has to scroll down endlessly (definitely to "linear" ) and sift through all the embedded replies.

Xray · March 15, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies:

http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand

[s. Hicks]: Conclusion: Summarizing the key differences and similarities. My judgment is that the differences between Nietzsche and Rand greatly outweigh the similarities. They are both atheists, they both are naturalistic in their approach to consciousness and values, and they are both hostile to altruism. Yet they share very little positive philosophy: they disagree on virtually every fundamental issue in metaphysics, epistemology, and human nature; and they disagree about the proper positive standard, means, and end of ethics. My post does not address the questions of Nietzsche’s influence upon Rand or of the extent to which Rand later expunged earlier Nietzschean elements in her thinking. Please feel welcome to address those questions too.

(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).

seymourblogger · March 15, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies:
http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand
[s. Hicks]: Conclusion: Summarizing the key differences and similarities. My judgment is that the differences between Nietzsche and Rand greatly outweigh the similarities. They are both atheists, they both are naturalistic in their approach to consciousness and values, and they are both hostile to altruism. Yet they share very little positive philosophy: they disagree on virtually every fundamental issue in metaphysics, epistemology, and human nature; and they disagree about the proper positive standard, means, and end of ethics. My post does not address the questions of Nietzsche’s influence upon Rand or of the extent to which Rand later expunged earlier Nietzschean elements in her thinking. Please feel welcome to address those questions too.
(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).

I am aware of Hicks's take on this. x-ray. A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?

I've talked with Chris about this. He is interested in my POV.

Did you forget also about agreeing and disagreeing in an exchange of ideas?

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 16, 2012

In free PDF format: http://members.shaw....horitarians.pdf See how fucking nice I can be sometimes. BTW Altemeyer likes me. A lot.

Seymourblogger,

I skimmed it. I might look deeper later, but on first blush, I would give it a subtitle: Psychobabble Your Way To Liberal Bliss And Hating The True Bogeyman, The American Right.

Authoritarianism is a great topic for delving into an important facet of the human mind, irrespective of left, right, religious, atheist, or otherwise. It's a pity to see partisan propaganda where ideas should be--but then again, this is the academic world funded by government handouts.

At least I hope Altemeyer got tenure in exchange for selling out.

Michael

Xray · March 16, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies: http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand
<...>
(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).
I am aware of Hicks's take on this. x-ray. A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?

Janet,

Of course you are "not there", (i. e. in the "Dialectical Discourse").

Before getting into that in detail in a separate post, a general remark: forum posts are always also posts to a 'public', i. e. they are not exclusively addressed to a specific poster. My link to Hicks's take on the issue is to be understood that way.

From your prior posts I know that you think "Hicks sucks", but your personal opinion is irrelevant in the context in which I posted the link to his article: I think it offers ample material for further discussion.

I've talked with Chris [sciabarra] about this. He is interested in my POV.

Has Chris also commented on your POV (for signaling interest in something does not necessarily result in further action).

There also exists the possibility of you having misinterpreted as "interest" what may merely have been a polite answer on Sciabarra's part.

seymourblogger · March 16, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies: http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand
<...>
(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).
I am aware of Hicks's take on this. x-ray. A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?
Janet,
Of course you are "not there", (i. e. in the "Dialectical Discourse").
Before getting into that in detail in a separate post, a general remark: forum posts are always also posts to a 'public', i. e. they are not exclusively addressed to a specific poster. My link to Hicks's take on the issue is to be understood that way.
From your prior posts I know that you think "Hicks sucks", but your personal opinion is irrelevant in the context in which I posted the link to his article: I think it offers ample material for further discussion.
I've talked with Chris [sciabarra] about this. He is interested in my POV.
Has Chris also commented on your POV (for signaling interest in something does not necessarily result in further action).
There also exists the possibility of you having misinterpreted as "interest" what may merely have been a polite answer on Sciabarra's part.

I didn't misinterpret as I didn't have to interpret at all.

Your comments are restored as the spam filter took them to be perused.

You are free to link to as much misinformation as you want. Why don't you link to a real scholar, Babette Babich who also has graduate degrees in Germany altho an American. Many of her articles on Nietzsche are written in German and translated into English by herself., Her books, her journal on Nietzsche, interviews are all bilingual as the English ones she translates herself back into German. She writes also on Hannah Arendt and Heidegger. Hicks may be a good lecturer, - Penn State is it? - but he is not a world authority on Nietzsche as Babich is. Her understanding of him is intuitive,deep and "true" if I may say that, and comes from a long career reading Nietzsche.

May I say you seem to have a real aversion to your fellow Germans when it comes to this subject. Any reason?

caroljane · March 16, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies: http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand
<...>
(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).
I am aware of Hicks's take on this. x-ray. A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?
Janet,
Of course you are "not there", (i. e. in the "Dialectical Discourse").
Before getting into that in detail in a separate post, a general remark: forum posts are always also posts to a 'public', i. e. they are not exclusively addressed to a specific poster. My link to Hicks's take on the issue is to be understood that way.
From your prior posts I know that you think "Hicks sucks", but your personal opinion is irrelevant in the context in which I posted the link to his article: I think it offers ample material for further discussion.
I've talked with Chris [sciabarra] about this. He is interested in my POV.
Has Chris also commented on your POV (for signaling interest in something does not necessarily result in further action).
There also exists the possibility of you having misinterpreted as "interest" what may merely have been a polite answer on Sciabarra's part.
I didn't misinterpret as I didn't have to interpret at all.
Your comments are restored as the spam filter took them to be perused.
You are free to link to as much misinformation as you want. Why don't you link to a real scholar, Babette Babich who also has graduate degrees in Germany altho an American. Many of her articles on Nietzsche are written in German and translated into English by herself., Her books, her journal on Nietzsche, interviews are all bilingual as the English ones she translates herself back into German. She writes also on Hannah Arendt and Heidegger. Hicks may be a good lecturer, - Penn State is it? - but he is not a world authority on Nietzsche as Babich is. Her understanding of him is intuitive,deep and "true" if I may say that, and comes from a long career reading Nietzsche.
May I say you seem to have a real aversion to your fellow Germans when it comes to this subject. Any reason?

You seem to have a real aversion to considering that more than one person can provide information or insight on any given topic; the "world authority", the "best", the "leader in the field" are the only ones worth listening to, everyone else is a fifth-rater, ---there's always only one.Foucault was top dog then pouf! Baudrillard knocked him out, like Hemingway and Mailer gamely swung for the Great Heavyweight American Novelist championship.

Others have called you a guru-seeker, and it is easy to see why you were attracted to the early Ayn Rand movement - the stories of which are very interesting, by the way.

Any reason?

seymourblogger · March 16, 2012

In free PDF format: http://members.shaw....horitarians.pdf See how fucking nice I can be sometimes. BTW Altemeyer likes me. A lot.
Seymourblogger,
I skimmed it. I might look deeper later, but on first blush, I would give it a subtitle: Psychobabble Your Way To Liberal Bliss And Hating The True Bogeyman, The American Right.
Authoritarianism is a great topic for delving into an important facet of the human mind, irrespective of left, right, religious, atheist, or otherwise. It's a pity to see partisan propaganda where ideas should be--but then again, this is the academic world funded by government handouts.
At least I hope Altemeyer got tenure in exchange for selling out.
Michael

I guess you weren't kidding when you said you skimmed.

Altemeyer took zero - 0 - funds from anyone to do his work. Not theory but questionaires, endlessly revised to be more precise for over 20 years.

As you probably don't know, authoritarianism is the psychological counterpart to the political organization we all know and love and call fascism. This site is a good mini example of a fascist organized site with a group of people who follow the party line here. (This is bound to get me in the garbage pile again eh.) Lest you think I am partial to criticizing you all, The heavy hitting liberal site - The Dailykos - is the very worst offender having driven off a wave of really good posters when the brownshirts came to get them all, one by one by one. Needless to say I went to the camps too.

seymourblogger · March 16, 2012

Here is a link to an Atlas Society cyberseminar about Nietzsche and Rand. It has a detailed list (compiled by S. Hicks) about agreements and disagreements between their philosophies: http://www.atlassoci...he-and-ayn-rand
<...>
(C. Sciabarra and E. Mozes added two interesting comments as well).
I am aware of Hicks's take on this. x-ray. A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?
Janet,
Of course you are "not there", (i. e. in the "Dialectical Discourse").
Before getting into that in detail in a separate post, a general remark: forum posts are always also posts to a 'public', i. e. they are not exclusively addressed to a specific poster. My link to Hicks's take on the issue is to be understood that way.
From your prior posts I know that you think "Hicks sucks", but your personal opinion is irrelevant in the context in which I posted the link to his article: I think it offers ample material for further discussion.
I've talked with Chris [sciabarra] about this. He is interested in my POV.
Has Chris also commented on your POV (for signaling interest in something does not necessarily result in further action).
There also exists the possibility of you having misinterpreted as "interest" what may merely have been a polite answer on Sciabarra's part.
I didn't misinterpret as I didn't have to interpret at all.
Your comments are restored as the spam filter took them to be perused.
You are free to link to as much misinformation as you want. Why don't you link to a real scholar, Babette Babich who also has graduate degrees in Germany altho an American. Many of her articles on Nietzsche are written in German and translated into English by herself., Her books, her journal on Nietzsche, interviews are all bilingual as the English ones she translates herself back into German. She writes also on Hannah Arendt and Heidegger. Hicks may be a good lecturer, - Penn State is it? - but he is not a world authority on Nietzsche as Babich is. Her understanding of him is intuitive,deep and "true" if I may say that, and comes from a long career reading Nietzsche.
May I say you seem to have a real aversion to your fellow Germans when it comes to this subject. Any reason?
You seem to have a real aversion to considering that more than one person can provide information or insight on any given topic; the "world authority", the "best", the "leader in the field" are the only ones worth listening to, everyone else is a fifth-rater, ---there's always only one.Foucault was top dog then pouf! Baudrillard knocked him out, like Hemingway and Mailer gamely swung for the Great Heavyweight American Novelist championship.
Others have called you a guru-seeker, and it is easy to see why you were attracted to the early Ayn Rand movement - the stories of which are very interesting, by the way.
Any reason?

Remember that part in the Fountainhead when Dominique drags Wynand to the theatre to watch a very mediocre performance which Toohey had had praised in The Banner? NO? I'll refresh your memory then.

To praise, award, and revere the mediocre in the place of excellence, is to destroy excellence. Hicks is adequate, but not of the caliber of Babich. But he doesn't need to be. Nietzsche is not his specialty. Nietzsche is Babich's specialty among others like Arendt who gave a series of lectures on Nietzsche at the New School in New York and Heidegger who reads through Nietzsche. Don't take my word for it, these are the major philosophers of our time on this subject. When you want to know something go to the top. Read Nietzsche first, not Hicks on Nietzsche. Then read Hicks if you so desire. But know that Babich exists and is considered the premier scholar on Nietzsche at the present time. I am sure she has said something about Hicks. Has Hicks said something about Babich or maybe he doesn't know she exists. Maybe he hasn't read the Journal on Nietzsche Babich started and published.

Baudrillard did not "knock out" Foucault. He proved everyone of Foucault's points and made Foucault more radical, more Foucault than Foucault ever dreamed of being. Zizek is going to do the same with Hegel in his new book out in April.

See dancer, you go off about something you know nothing about, have never read or studied and shoot off your mouth. All that does is make you sound stupid. And you are stupid for doing it. It says more about you than Foucault, Baudrillard and my posts and comments.

BTW how are your chicklet teeth coming along? They sure are white.

Garbage pile!

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 16, 2012

Altemeyer took zero - 0 - funds from anyone to do his work.

Seymourblogger,

Who said he took money to do his book?

He had a nice cozy teaching job, didn't he?

That salary has to be worth something to sell out for. That's the standard price for a professor's soul.

John Dean... John Dean... where have I heard that name before... ? ...

There... in the distance... beside John... a K... an O... ah... Ke... Kei... Keit...

Keith Olbermann? Could it be?

Why yes, I think it is...

Michael

caroljane · March 17, 2012

See dancer, you go off about something you know nothing about, have never read or studied and shoot off your mouth. All that does is make you sound stupid. And you are stupid for doing it. It says more about you than Foucault, Baudrillard and my posts and comments.
BTW how are your chicklet teeth coming along? They sure are white.
Garbage pile!

My post was not about Foucault or Baudrillard, but about my impressions of you, about which I know quite a lot, and which now include the impression that you do not read particularly well.

Thank you for the compliments to my teeth, but I wish you would explain why you think they are so white. Is this some kind of postmodern joke?

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 17, 2012

This site is a good mini example of a fascist organized site with a group of people who follow the party line here.

This is not accurate, but it does reflect the mentality of the poster accurately. Despite glimmers of intelligence that surge at times, she is all about power, not intellectual life. So she doesn't grok groups of individuals when they don't fall into her prejudices.

OL is a discussion site open to the public, but the structure is private property. Like all owners, Kat and I have rules for how the public can use our property. This poster likes to break those rules, then holler fascism when restricted. I can think of several names for this behavior. Not one of them is worth discussing except to say they are all immature.

Anyway, there is no OL organization, much less a fascist one.

I do admit... There are times when i think of this poster and I begin to feel a positive glow around an idea belonging to fascism: eugenics...

But not for the site (which would be fascist)--for mankind in general...

With a specific target in mind for purging from the gene pool, too...

(That was just a quip for the literal-minded.)

Michael

Xray · March 17, 2012

I've talked with Chris [sciabarra] about this. He is interested in my POV.
Has Chris also commented on your POV (for signaling interest in something does not necessarily result in further action).
There also exists the possibility of you having misinterpreted as "interest" what may merely have been a polite answer on Sciabarra's part.
I didn't misinterpret as I didn't have to interpret at all.

We humans always interpret, Janet. Whether it is statements, body language, voice inflection, etc.

As for Sciabarra, you obviously interpreted his comment as being true, i. e. you 'translated' it as being in accord with how he really felt about your POV.

You are free to link to as much misinformation as you want.

Feel free to point out the alleged "misinformation" in HIcks's article and then do a demonstration here, where you provide evidence of it actually being misinformation.

Failure on your part to do so will mark your statements as mere unsubstantiated assertions.

I suppose you are now going to reply with your usual "I'm not in the Dialectical Discourse" - right? For this seems to be your preferred 'exit' from the discussion each time we reach a certain point:

A comparison and contrast lies within the Dialectical Discourse. Did you forget that I am not there?

Let's therefore take a closer look at this 'Dialectical Discourse which belongs to the Order of Production' thing and demonstrate the profit aspect it has for you. (I'll put aside for the moment that you have not even been able to convincingly explain why dialectical reasoning is allegedly so 'detrimental'. For example, you have completely left out the component 'synthesis' in dialectal reasoning).

Now that profit aspect for you is quite obvious: by putting yourself in the "Order of Seduction", you think you are not required to rationally explain anything. Reason, rationality, doing a detailed factual analysis, etc. "All this belongs to the Order of Production", you keep chirping from the "Order of Seduction" nest you are sitting in.

On the other hand, you want to be taken seriously, but if you don't move out of your OoS where irrationality resides, how is this going to happen?

Xray · March 17, 2012

I agree Rand's writing is terrible in WTL, but it is also terrible in Atlas, but that is precisely what makes it perfct for the theme she is writing about. Later I will get into her style.

You posted this nearly two months ago.

Still waiting for you to "get into her style" ...

seymourblogger · March 17, 2012

I agree Rand's writing is terrible in WTL, but it is also terrible in Atlas, but that is precisely what makes it perfct for the theme she is writing about. Later I will get into her style.
You posted this nearly two months ago. Still waiting for you to "get into her style" ...

Briefly. The style in which you write something must be a mirror of what you are writing about. Meyer in Twilight is writing about seduction. Her style is more seductive (to Muse and other rock music) than the seduction she is writing about. Rand's choppy, gestapo boot style that was panned by Chambers is perfect for the rusty, inefficient, clunky bureaucracy she is writing about. Her style mirrors that bureaucracy. Cosmoplis does this when Packer is in the limo start, stopping "moving in quarter inches" through the New York city traffic jam. It is soaring when he is projecting into the seagull in the sky. It is seductive when he is trying to get his wife to screw him just about anywhere each time he meets her. Sasha, that utterly wonderful book reviewer of a blogger does this for Nabokov's Lolita, so read her review of Lolita in her archives. http://silverfysh.wordpress.com/ Sasha is 22 years old and a Fillapina I believe. She is an extraordinary writer.

Brant Gaede · March 17, 2012

deleted by Brant

George H. Smith · March 17, 2012

This site is a good mini example of a fascist organized site with a group of people who follow the party line here. (This is bound to get me in the garbage pile again eh.) Lest you think I am partial to criticizing you all, The heavy hitting liberal site - The Dailykos - is the very worst offender having driven off a wave of really good posters when the brownshirts came to get them all, one by one by one. Needless to say I went to the camps too.

The generally poor reception you get on OL is not because you are a maverick -- almost every regular poster on OL is a maverick of some kind -- but because you are a fool. Even that might be tolerable if you were not also an annoying fool, i.e., a twit.

To the gas chambers-- Go!. And take your shopping cart with you.

Ghs

seymourblogger · March 18, 2012

This site is a good mini example of a fascist organized site with a group of people who follow the party line here. (This is bound to get me in the garbage pile again eh.) Lest you think I am partial to criticizing you all, The heavy hitting liberal site - The Dailykos - is the very worst offender having driven off a wave of really good posters when the brownshirts came to get them all, one by one by one. Needless to say I went to the camps too.
The generally poor reception you get on OL is not because you are a maverick -- almost every regular poster on OL is a maverick of some kind -- but because you are a fool. Even that might be tolerable if you were not also an annoying fool, i.e., a twit.
To the gas chambers-- Go!. And take your shopping cart with you.
Ghs

Maybe I am a fool for commenting here. But I am not getting drunk because my money has been cut off and my landlady is threatening eviction as I am in arrears on my rent.

Who is the fool? Yes?

And I would bet that law organization in Bloomington is run by Michael Ausbrook. Yes?

Brant Gaede · March 18, 2012

This site is a good mini example of a fascist organized site with a group of people who follow the party line here. (This is bound to get me in the garbage pile again eh.) Lest you think I am partial to criticizing you all, The heavy hitting liberal site - The Dailykos - is the very worst offender having driven off a wave of really good posters when the brownshirts came to get them all, one by one by one. Needless to say I went to the camps too.
The generally poor reception you get on OL is not because you are a maverick -- almost every regular poster on OL is a maverick of some kind -- but because you are a fool. Even that might be tolerable if you were not also an annoying fool, i.e., a twit.
To the gas chambers-- Go!. And take your shopping cart with you.
Ghs
Maybe I am a fool for commenting here. But I am not getting drunk because my money has been cut off and my landlady is threatening eviction as I am in arrears on my rent.

Why are you getting drunk?

--Brant

sorry to hear about your landlady threatening to evict you

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 18, 2012

George's money got cut off?

I could have sworn he wrote that more taxes than planned were deducted.

Maybe I have a reading problem?

Michael

caroljane · March 18, 2012

George's money got cut off?
I could have sworn he wrote that more taxes than planned were deducted.
Maybe I have a reading problem?
Michael

Yes, you must have...and my memory problem is worse, I can't remember where my house with the dogs in it is, or even find a decent wig to wear!

Rand through a Nietzsche filter

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in