Selene Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The Armed Citizen...http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx?s=the+armed+citizen&st=&ps=Sort by: relevance, dateDecember 17, 2012Armed CitizenFULL STORYDecember 1, 1962Citizen Patriot, Jackson, MI When Warren P. Blanchard of Jackson, Mich., noticed a strange pickup truck in his drive late one night, he armed himself with a shotgun and went into his backyard where he found...FULL STORYOctober 19, 201222-year-old woman defends herself against armed home invaders, NBC DFW, Dallas, Texas 10/18/12A 22-year-old woman was at home alone in Dallas, Texas when a pair of home invaders, at least one of whom was armed, kicked in the front door. After retrieving a gun, the woman spotted the criminals as they were headed to the second floor of the house. The woman opened fire on the home invaders, striking one and causing both to flee. The wounded burglar collapsed just outside the front door and was later taken to a local hospital, where he died. The father of the armed citizen noted that he was proud of his daughter’s actions, stating, "I'm real proud of her because I taught her that... I taught my girls that -- to defend themselves when someone comes to hurt them, and apparently she listened."FULL STORYDecember 1, 1988The Citizen, Asheville, NC, 8/19/88 Kings Mountain, N.C., store owner Jack Barrett had been sleeping at his business to protect it from burglars. Late at night the lights and phone went out and the owner heard glass...FULL STORYJuly 1, 1984The Citizen, Tucson, AZ, 4/10/84 Investigating suspicious noises at her back porch, a Tucson, Ariz., woman discovered a man crouching at a sliding glass door. Armed with a shotgun, the woman opened the door and...FULL STORYJanuary 1, 1979The Citizen, Tucson, AZ Thinking that they heard someone trying to break into their house in Tucson, Ariz., Paul Miller went to get his .32 cal. revolver while his wife went to the front door. When she...FULL STORYApril 1, 1971The Hawthorne Citizen, Hawthorne, CA Mrs. Barbara Floyd and her two sons were in their living quarters behind the family's Hawthorne, Calif., pawn shop when they heard a knock at the front door. Because the shop was...FULL STORYJune 1, 1962Daily Citizen, Tucson, AZ When confronted by an armed man in his liquor store in Tucson, Ariz., Cressworth C. Lander drew a .32 revolver and forced the gunman and an accomplice to surrender. Lander held...FULL STORYNovember 1, 1959The Columbus Citizen, Columbus, OH Virgil Ruskin got out of bed and returned to his Columbus, Ohio, restaurant on a hunch that the place might be burglarized. The restaurant had been broken into three times in recent...FULL STORYDecember 1, 1971The Asheville Citizen-Times, Asheville, NC FULL STORYNovember 1, 1988The Register Citizen, Torrington, CT, 8/16/88 Richard Phelon was fishing a small stream near his Burlington, Conn., home when he was approached by an armed man who said he wanted money. Phelon went to his car, ostensibly to...FULL STORYNovember 1, 1980The Citizen-Journal, Columbus, OH, 8/23/80 Seventy-three-year-old Robert Henson returned to his Portsmouth, Ohio, home after dark, but decided to sleep in his truck because the home where he lived alone had been a burglary...FULL STORYFebruary 1, 1975The Tucson Daily Citizen, Tucson, AZ An early morning burglar alarm ringing in William Parsons' Sells, Ariz., trailer home alerted him that something was amiss in his Quijotoa Trading Post store next door. Armed with...FULL STORYNovember 13, 2009The Herald Citizen, Cookville, Tenn. 11/10/09Around 9 p.m., a homeowner in Putnam County, Tenn. saw something suspicious in his back yard. The homeowner retrieved his .45 caliber pistol and went outside to investigate. As the...FULL STORYJanuary 1, 1988The Citizen Journal, Clayton, MO, 9/11/87 Andrae Bopp and his wife of Richmond Heights, Mo., were awakened by someone trying to get into their house. Bopp called police, then stood guard outside the bedroom with a pistol....FULL STORYApril 1, 2007The Tucson Citizen, Tucson, AZ, 01/04/07 The safety of his mother and nephew was all 22-year-old Phillip Mendoza could think about after six armed men invaded their home. Mendoza snuck into a bedroom and grabbed a shotgun."...FULL STORYAugust 1, 2008Herald-Citizen, Cookeville, TN, 05/16/08According to White County, Tenn., Sheriff Oddie Shoupe, a man was leaving a home he'd just burglarized when he encountered the homeowner, Keith Gurtley, on the front porch. The...FULL STORYNovember 1, 2001Asheville Citizen-Times News, Asheville, N.C., 8/31/01 An Asheville, N.C., pharmacy owner prevented a robbery of Lord's Drugstore by grabbing his firearm and holding the suspect until police arrived. Richard James entered the store Thursday ...FULL STORYMarch 9, 2009The Opelika-Auburn News, Opelika, Ala. 03/06/09Around 11:45 p.m. a man in Opelika, Ala. was approached by an armed robber demanding money. The citizen drew his firearm and shot the armed criminal, ending the attempted robbery. The...FULL STORYAugust 1, 1993The Post, Houston, TX, 4/7/93 A man fleeing Houston police made a fatal mistake when he jumped through the window of a home owned by an armed citizen. Awakened by the noise, the homeowner grabbed his gun and,...FULL STORYNovember 1, 1975The Memphis Press-Scimitar, Memphis, TN A Missouri state trooper had been shot three times by two armed robbery suspects when armed citizen Robert Riley of Tiptonville, Tenn., rushed to his aid. Riley fired a small caliber ...FULL STORYMarch 9, 2010WHBQ, Memphis, Tenn. 03/05/10 WREG, Memphis, Tenn. 03/05/10A man armed with a butcher knife was acting erratically and chasing after people in the parking lot of a Family Dollar store in Memphis, Tenn. As the criminal lunged to cut one driver...FULL STORYFebruary 1, 1993The Journal-Bulletin, Providence, RI, 9/10/92 A coordinated armed robbery attempt at a Barrington, R.I., jewelry store backfired when the robber met an armed citizen. Owner George Gray was on the phone when the armed man entered....FULL STORYJune 9, 2009WFAA, Dallas, Texas 06/07/09An armed robber in Dallas, Texas approached a man on the street, shot him in the chest and attempted to steal his money. The wounded man drew his own gun and fired at the criminal,...FULL STORYSeptember 1, 1972The Spotlight, Delmar, NY The Bethlehem, N.Y., Citizens Valor Award is given annually by the Bethlehem Police Benevolent Ass'n to the resident who contributed the most to the safety of his fellow townsmen....FULL STORYNovember 1, 2007Manteca Bulletin, Manteca, Calif., 6/11/07 Panicked residents reported a man running through their yards as police chased a county jail escapee through several neighborhoods in Manteca, Calif. That is, until the suspect...FULL STORYNovember 1, 1985The Tribune, Tampa, FL, 8/27/85 Caught in the act, the sneak-thief asked armed homeowner Joseph Jiminez not to shoot him. As the elderly Tampa, Fla, citizen considered the request, the intruder threw a chair...FULL STORYApril 1, 1976The San Jose Mercury, San Jose, CA Roused from a nap by his dog barking, Gary Hansen, a Santa Clara, Calif., city councilman, opened his front door to see two men stripping a neighbor's car. He ducked back inside...FULL STORYFebruary 1, 1973Twin City Sentinel, Winston-Salem, NC One of two convicts who escaped from a prison work detail near Forsyth, N.C., made his way to the home of a local resident only to be faced by a shotgun-carrying homeowner. The...FULL STORYSeptember 1, 1972The Toledo Times, Toledo, OH An unidentified armed citizen witnessed from his Toledo, Ohio, house the beating and robbing of an elderly man. Getting his revolver, he ran outside and held the mugger on the...FULL STORYMay 1, 1968Sentinel, Orlando, FL An unidentified armed citizen who lived next door to an Orlando, Fla., printing company noticed an intruder inside the building after hours. A good neighbor policy went into effect...FULL STORYApril 5, 2011(The Miami Herald, Miami, Fla. 04/04/11)A robber in Miami, Fla. approached a man at around 3 a.m., drew a gun and ordered him to hand over his belongings. The man responded by drawing a gun and exchanging fire with the criminal,...FULL STORYApril 1, 1996American Rifleman: April 1996 FROM AN ARMED CITIZEN I would like to add to my "Armed Citizen" experience reported in February. Without NRA, my government may have succeeded in imposing severe restrictions...FULL STORYOctober 1, 1993The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 5/11/93 A Tacoma, Washington, robber thought a pawn shop would be a great place to steal guns, but he forgot to take the one held by an armed citizen. The armed crook announced a robbery...FULL STORYAugust 27, 2010WESH, Cocoa, Fla. 08/27/10An armed robber entered the Chevron station on South Cocoa Boulevard in Cocoa, Fla. and attempted to rob the store. Owner Sowann Suy responded to the criminal’s demands by retrieving...FULL STORYJuly 7, 2010The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, Tenn. 07/03/10Two armed robbers approached a 21-year-old man at the Edgewater Apartment complex in Memphis, Tenn. and attempted to rob him at gunpoint. The young man responded by drawing a gun and...FULL STORYJanuary 20, 2009The Atlanta Journal Constitution, Atlanta, Ga. 01/15/09A man and his girlfriend were heading home from a night of dancing in Atlanta, Ga. The couple had just gotten inside their vehicle, when a stranger, identified as 29 year-old Jamarcus...FULL STORYAugust 26, 2009The Detroit News, Detroit, Mich. 08/25/09A criminal armed with a gun approached a man outside an apartment complex in Detroit, Mich. and demanded money. The man, a Right-to-Carry permit holder, drew his gun and exchanged fire...FULL STORYJanuary 1, 2001Las Vegas Review-Journal, Las Vegas, Nev., 7/19/00Barking dogs alerted a 60-year-old Las Vegas resident to trouble one night, but before going to investigate, the man armed himself with a handgun. Opening the door to his den, he encountered...FULL STORYNovember 1, 1996The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, IN, 5/10/96 A small band of Fort Wayne, Indiana, homebreakers finally learned the hazards of their activity when they came face to face with an armed citizen whose house they were attempting...FULL STORY123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Window sign: "This home is protected by an armed citizen"Translation: "C'mon in and steal my guns" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/17/at-sandy-hook-memorial-obama-showcases-t "Finally, a president who has the guts to come out against the murder of children. Not only that, but he is prepared to confront those who, for murky but clearly frivolous reasons, tolerate violence, oppose tragedy prevention, and shrink from saving innocent lives. Because "politics" cannot be allowed to obstruct the solutions that every decent, right-thinking person favors." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Window sign: "This home is protected by an armed citizen"Translation: "C'mon in and steal my guns"Isn't this just another quip? Do you really think that the average burgler/thief, upon seeing a window sign that says "protected by an armed citizen" thinks to himself: "Great, there are some guns in there worth stealing?"Or isn't it equally (more?) possible he moves on to the next house?I have a sign outside my house that says "protected by ADT security". Is that equally foolish?At the risk of repeating myself, all this talk about what to do about guns ignores our Constitutional rights as Americans. The Supreme Court (as of 2008) has definitively held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that weapon for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Moreover, this right applies not just to the federal government, but to states and municipalities as well. Just as I don't expect a French citizen to understand our seeming preoccupation in this country with jury trials, nor would I expect others to understand this "gun protection" element of American society. This is true whether Obama, Ted Kennedy's wife, or anybody on OL likes it or not. Thus, all of this talk about whether we "should do something about guns" in American is more or less irrelevant. Absent a Constitutional Convention or an amendment to our Constitution, this is the law of the land. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Window sign: "This home is protected by an armed citizen"Translation: "C'mon in and steal my guns"Window Sign: "This is a gun free house."Translation: "C'mon in, you can rob me, assault me and rape my wife and children and all you really need is an aluminum softball bat!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I've seen "This house protected by S&W" or some variant. Seemed to get the point across with no troubles. "This is a gun free house" on the other hand...that would be an all time Darwin award winner. Maybe I live in a rough neighborhood. Votes about 80% democrat however. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even the smartest criminals could not steal a nonexistent gun.Huh? Are you saying that you believe that it's possible to confiscate all guns? Guns would be "nonexistent"? They'd, what, be available to government authorities who you deem to be trustworthy enough to have them, and they'd somehow never make it in to the hands of others, or never be manufactured illegally and sold on the black market (um, like illegal drugs which are available everywhere)?JI am saying it is desirable to confiscate them, even if not possible. It is desirable to limit their accessibility as much as is possible.It's desirable based on what? Your feelings?It is the only alternative I can envisage to the everything-private, gated kindergartens with armed teachers and metal detectors at the Story Room Door, where everyone keeps eternal vigilance because you are still and always at war, and at any moment King George or Immanuel Goldstein will storm in to trample on your liberties.I can envision lots of potential solutions. I think I'd begin by studying whether or not this is a new and escalating problem, if it is primarily an American problem, and what phenomena cause or contribute to it.Perhaps fictional violence in American culture -- games and movies, etc. -- plays a part? Perhaps the media's obsession with shooting incidents contributes because shooters crave fame and they want to hurt or scare as many people as possible and the media helps accomplish that. Perhaps American liberal eduational policies produce an entitlement mentality which quicly resorts to violence when it feels slighted, and therefore getting rid of the pseudo-self-esteem policies, the equalizing of everyone, and the mainstreaming of children who can't keep up should be considered?If we're willing to throw out the Constitution and our concern with rights, maybe it's time to get rid of freedom of speech/expression, and dictate what Hollywood can and cannot put into its films, and limit how much coverage the media can give to a shooting. Maybe it's time to put a lot of money into scientifically discovering if the liberal mindset of coddling everyone creates monsters.Also, we could lock up anyone who is a little different, and who maybe gives us the creeps. All of the school shooters in the past have been described as pretty creepy, so, if you're willing to violate people's rights as a "solution," why not just put people in cages because we think that they're more likely than others to commit crimes in the future?Btw, it's my understanding that this Lanza kid got the guns from his mom's collection. Under your policy of making guns "nonexistent," I would imagine that you're not proposing that even the police and military would not have guns, so what happens when a messed up son of a police officer borrows his daddy's guns to go on a killing spree? What are you then going to propose?J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even the smartest criminals could not steal a nonexistent gun.Huh? Are you saying that you believe that it's possible to confiscate all guns? Guns would be "nonexistent"? They'd, what, be available to government authorities who you deem to be trustworthy enough to have them, and they'd somehow never make it in to the hands of others, or never be manufactured illegally and sold on the black market (um, like illegal drugs which are available everywhere)?JI am saying it is desirable to confiscate them, even if not possible. It is desirable to limit their accessibility as much as is possible.It's desirable based on what? Your feelings?It is the only alternative I can envisage to the everything-private, gated kindergartens with armed teachers and metal detectors at the Story Room Door, where everyone keeps eternal vigilance because you are still and always at war, and at any moment King George or Immanuel Goldstein will storm in to trample on your liberties.I can envision lots of potential solutions. I think I'd begin by studying whether or not this is a new and escalating problem, if it is primarily an American problem, and what phenomena cause or contribute to it.Perhaps fictional violence in American culture -- games and movies, etc. -- plays a part? Perhaps the media's obsession with shooting incidents contributes because shooters crave fame and they want to hurt or scare as many people as possible and the media helps accomplish that. Perhaps American liberal eduational policies produce an entitlement mentality which quicly resorts to violence when it feels slighted, and therefore getting rid of the pseudo-self-esteem policies, the equalizing of everyone, and the mainstreaming of children who can't keep up should be considered?If we're willing to throw out the Constitution and our concern with rights, maybe it's time to get rid of freedom of speech/expression, and dictate what Hollywood can and cannot put into its films, and limit how much coverage the media can give to a shooting. Maybe it's time to put a lot of money into scientifically discovering if the liberal mindset of coddling everyone creates monsters.Also, we could lock up anyone who is a little different, and who maybe gives us the creeps. All of the school shooters in the past have been described as pretty creepy, so, if you're willing to violate people's rights as a "solution," why not just put people in cages because we think that they're more likely than others to commit crimes in the future?Btw, it's my understanding that this Lanza kid got the guns from his mom's collection. Under your policy of making guns "nonexistent," I would imagine that you're not proposing that even the police and military would not have guns, so what happens when a messed up son of a police officer borrows his daddy's guns to go on a killing spree? What are you then going to propose?JJ: to quote the ever insightful Lloyd Christmas, you have a "rapist wit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Window sign: "This home is protected by an armed citizen"Translation: "C'mon in and steal my guns"Window Sign: "This is a gun free house."Translation: "C'mon in, you can rob me, assault me and rape my wife and children and all you really need is an aluminum softball bat!"Practically speaking it's probably not a good idea to put such signage in your window. A phoney security system sign and a few phoney video cameras with blinking red lights and such other measures like a barking dog is a better way to go.Carol, arguments by mere asseverations implies you have no real argument and it's too easy to keep swatting you down. One needs to be an armed citizen for various reasons. If you have no reason, felt or otherwise, I'm happy for you, but you can't generalize off that base to others who do have reason.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 If Waco could be considered a "school," then it would qualify as the worst school mass death incident in American history. Government guns, tanks and flamethrowers were used.I guess that one does not count.Next to Newton, Conn. would be 1927, Bath Township, Michigan where 38, or 39 elementary school children, 2 teachers and 4 other adults were killed. Fifty-eight [58] others were injured. The "weapon" used was dynamite. Bath School Disaster Memorial, Bath, MichiganPhoto credit: Faith Draper aka byfaithonlyWe’ve all heard of the Columbine High School massacre and the Virginia Tech shootings but who outside of Bath or the Lansing, Michigan area have heard of the Bath School Disaster? Claiming over three times as many lives as Columbine and almost twice as many as Virginia Tech the Bath School disaster was the work of one man who took his own life along with the 46 he killed and 58 he injured. Most of the victims where grade school students.Upset about losing his family farm and taxes being increased to support the school on May 18, 1927 Andrew Kehoe committed the worst act of domestic terrorism in the United States until the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Kehoe killed his own wife, set fire to his farm buildings, ignited bombs in the basement of the school where the majority of his victims were killed and injured. He then ended with igniting explosives in his own truck killing himself, the superintendant of the school and several others nearby who were attempting to rescue students and staff from the school.In 1992 the Michigan Historical Marker was erected in Memorial Park, Bath (Clinton County) Michigan which is on the grounds where the school once stood. At the entrance to the park is a plaque baring the names of those killed that fateful day in May!Michigan Historical Marker:Side 1Bath School DisasterOn May 18, 1927, a dynamite blast rocked the Bath Consolidated School, shattering one wing of the building and resulting in the death of thirty-nine children and teachers; dozens more were injured. An inquest concluded that dynamite had been planted in the basement of the school by Andrew Kehoe, an embittered school board member. Resentful of higher taxes imposed for the school construction and the impending foreclosure on his farm, he took revenge on Bath's citizens by targeting their children. Soon after the explosion, as parents and rescue workers searched through the rubble for children, Kehoe took his life and the lives of four bystanders including the superintendent, one student and two townspeople, by detonating dynamite in his pick-up truck as he sat parked in front of the school.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This terrible type of violence is going to get worse as American society continues to disintegrate into a statist and irrational miasma, but outside of civil warfare gun deaths overall and crimes caused by guns will continue to go down in proportion to the citizens arming themselves. This is especially true for women avoiding assault and rape. To the extent a criminal thinks someone might be armed he just might not do the crime. Who knows what's in her purse?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even the smartest criminals could not steal a nonexistent gun.Huh? Are you saying that you believe that it's possible to confiscate all guns? Guns would be "nonexistent"? They'd, what, be available to government authorities who you deem to be trustworthy enough to have them, and they'd somehow never make it in to the hands of others, or never be manufactured illegally and sold on the black market (um, like illegal drugs which are available everywhere)?JI am saying it is desirable to confiscate them, even if not possible. It is desirable to limit their accessibility as much as is possible.It's desirable based on what? Your feelings?Yes, of course it is based on my feelings that the solution to gun deaths is not more guns.It is the only alternative I can envisage to the everything-private, gated kindergartens with armed teachers and metal detectors at the Story Room Door, where everyone keeps eternal vigilance because you are still and always at war, and at any moment King George or Immanuel Goldstein will storm in to trample on your libertiesPerhaps fictional violence in American culture ....If we're willing to throw out the Constitution and our concern with rights, maybe..JYour perhapses and maybes are, I suspect, just as based on feelings as are mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This terrible type of violence is going to get worse as American society continues to disintegrate into a statist and irrational miasma, but outside of civil warfare gun deaths overall and crimes caused by guns will continue to go down in proportion to the citizens arming themselves. This is especially true for women avoiding assault and rape. To the extent a criminal thinks someone might be armed he just might not do the crime. Who knows what's in her purse?--BrantI don't feel all that swatted. At least nobody is swearing at me this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even the smartest criminals could not steal a nonexistent gun.Huh? Are you saying that you believe that it's possible to confiscate all guns? Guns would be "nonexistent"? They'd, what, be available to government authorities who you deem to be trustworthy enough to have them, and they'd somehow never make it in to the hands of others, or never be manufactured illegally and sold on the black market (um, like illegal drugs which are available everywhere)?JI am saying it is desirable to confiscate them, even if not possible. It is desirable to limit their accessibility as much as is possible.It's desirable based on what? Your feelings?Yes, of course it is based on my feelings that the solution to gun deaths is not more guns.It is the only alternative I can envisage to the everything-private, gated kindergartens with armed teachers and metal detectors at the Story Room Door, where everyone keeps eternal vigilance because you are still and always at war, and at any moment King George or Immanuel Goldstein will storm in to trample on your libertiesPerhaps fictional violence in American culture ....If we're willing to throw out the Constitution and our concern with rights, maybe..JYour perhapses and maybes are, I suspect, just as based on feelings as are mine.The difference here is that J's "maybes" and "perhapses" are being used to make a rhetorical point to test the limits of your argument. Your self-described feelings, and use of pathos, are being used to suggest that American society is all fucked up and/or that we should discard our Constitution.But you don't live here, Daunce. And as I have tried to hint at, unless you are American, I don't really think you can understand why this matters so much to us, or how complicated it actually is. If I didn't have enormous respect for your intellect and the knowledge that you are a person of goodwill, I would bluntly tell you not to meddle in our business. I would tell you to focus on solving Canada's problems, such as its serious drunk driving problem I have outlined above, before telling us how to solve our various and serious problems. I would also say it is bad form to keep picking at a wound--one that we Americans feel some sense of shame about but realize is, largely, the price of freedom we cherish, and now see under assault by the usual suspects who hate to "waste a crisis"--that hasn't had a chance to even begin to heal, let alone produce a scab. And then I would remind you that this is an issue that is not solved through feelings and glibness. I have an 11-year old daughter who goes to elementary school. The thought of what happened Friday makes me sick. Explaining these events to her and seeing her fear means this asshole made my daughter a victim too, however slightly. If I could wave a magic wand and make this uniquely American problem go away, I would. There are no magic wands. To pretend otherwise falls somewhere between annoying and insulting. Trust me, there is enough pathos in this situation to go around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Your perhapses and maybes are, I suspect, just as based on feelings as are mine.Sure, but are you saying that your feelings are somehow more valid than mine?Maybe we should impose everyone's feelings on everyone else, and not just yours. You'd get to ban guns, and then I'd get ban your banning of guns, and put you in prison because I feel that your mindset of trying to take advantage of tragedies to push your irrational political agenda and to control and punish innocent people contributes to the cultural mindset that breeds killers of children.Maybe the solution is to really crack down on all freedoms. People should be locked into their homes, and they should need permission and official state escorts to leave their homes. They should be handcuffed at all times when out in public, and their homes should be subject to unannounced searches by police at any time, without warrant. That would prevent more killings than the "solution" that you've proposed, no?J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even the smartest criminals could not steal a nonexistent gun.Huh? Are you saying that you believe that it's possible to confiscate all guns? Guns would be "nonexistent"? They'd, what, be available to government authorities who you deem to be trustworthy enough to have them, and they'd somehow never make it in to the hands of others, or never be manufactured illegally and sold on the black market (um, like illegal drugs which are available everywhere)?JI am saying it is desirable to confiscate them, even if not possible. It is desirable to limit their accessibility as much as is possible.It's desirable based on what? Your feelings?Yes, of course it is based on my feelings that the solution to gun deaths is not more guns.It is the only alternative I can envisage to the everything-private, gated kindergartens with armed teachers and metal detectors at the Story Room Door, where everyone keeps eternal vigilance because you are still and always at war, and at any moment King George or Immanuel Goldstein will storm in to trample on your libertiesPerhaps fictional violence in American culture ....If we're willing to throw out the Constitution and our concern with rights, maybe..JYour perhapses and maybes are, I suspect, just as based on feelings as are mine.Your self-described feelings, and use of pathos, are being used to suggest that American society is all fucked up and/or that we should discard our Constitution.No, all societies today are all fucked up each in their own way. I do not suggest you discard your Constitution, although I do feel (that word again) that it could be updated to reflect the 21st century, although I would not suggest it. As you say, that is your business.But you don't live here, Daunce. And as I have tried to hint at, unless you are American, I don't really think you can understand why this matters so much to us, or how complicated it actually is. If I didn't have enormous respect for your intellect and the knowledge that you are a person of goodwill, I would bluntly tell you not to meddle in our business. I would tell you to focus on solving Canada's problems, such as its serious drunk driving problem I have outlined above, before telling us how to solve our various and serious problems. I would also say it is bad form to keep picking at a wound--one that we Americans feel some sense of shame about but realize is, largely, the price of freedom we cherish, and now see under assault by the usual suspects who hate to "waste a crisis"--that hasn't had a chance to even begin to heal, let alone produce a scab. And then I would remind you that this is an issue that is not solved through feelings and glibness. There are no magic wands. To pretend otherwise falls somewhere between annoying and insulting. The respect is mutual, and I do realize and acknowledge the price of your unique freedom. I just wish there were ways to reduce the price and I believe there could be some.I do not pretend there are magic wands and if I have annoyed or insulted you who are suffering this national tragedy, as I have said, I am very sorry .The Canada drunk driving problem is indeed very bad; maybe it is our payback for all the booze we sold you during Prohibition, in a wacky way, most of our illegal guns come from America now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It turns out that the deadliest mass murder in a school in the U.S. was committed using dynamite. Therefore dynamite should not exist.J[edited to add: Oops, I just noticed that Adam had already mentioned the 1927 bombing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Maybe we should impose everyone's feelings on everyone else, and not just yours...JLike everyone else, Pigero is peeing on the dead children's graves by trying to take advantage of the tragedy to push his irrational hatreds and his desire to control everyone else. His view is that the shooting is Ke$ha's fault, and that if this Adam Lanza had grown up in Pigeronian Pleasantville listening to Mario Lanza, the shooting never would have happened.Pigero also believes that there "is no record of psychotic young men going on murderous rampages" at the time of Mario's popularity, and that it "just wasn't that sort of cultural milieu." I guess that means that if Pigero wasn't aware of school shootings from that time, then they didn't exist, or that something isn't a part of the "culture" if Pigero blanks it out.J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Re http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11624&p=175374'>post #378, Obama sure is getting a run of luck. First Hurricane Sandy, and now this. Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 More from Pigero:"I am reiterating what I've claimed on countless occasions previously: from a psychotic culture you will get psychotic outcomes. And a psychotic culture is what you'll get from a society in which airheads preponderate. And, in a society that is subjected to decades of Comprachico-ism via Progressivism, the Frankfurt School, Gramsci-ism, Alinskyism, Political Correctness, Pomowankery, etc., etc., airheads will sooner or later preponderate..."...It's not the slutification of women, as Doug Bandler argues, though slutification is doubtless a very real effect of airheadery's triumph. As best we can tell, none of the rampagers had a problem with women (or a woman) in particular; rather with humanity and life in general. (One of the travesties spawned by Airhead America is that women who are not airheads or sluts feel constrained to behave as though they are: witness the likes of Kimberley Guilfoyle and other Fox News women presenters who wear no clothes and quack like retarded ducks in lieu of speaking.)"Is tolerance of gays also a part of the destructive, progressive, pomo mindset? After all, back in Mario Lanza's days, homosexuality was looked down on and not permitted in public, so we should probably go back to that mindset, no? I mean, if you've got a culture that accepts men kissing other men in public, what do you expect but school shootings?J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) It turns out that the deadliest mass murder in a school in the U.S. was committed using dynamite. Therefore dynamite should not exist.The fallacy of the excluded middle?Does this rhetoric suggest that there are only two alternatives: one being the status quo** and the other being a wholesale confiscation of all firearms from civilians?Maybe the solution is to really crack down on all freedoms. People should be locked into their homes, and they should need permission and official state escorts to leave their homes. They should be handcuffed at all times when out in public, and their homes should be subject to unannounced searches by police at any time, without warrant.This is more of the same: imagine an insane 'solution' to a problem, a 'solution' obviously impractical. If that solution can't happen, then status quo.But you don't live here, Daunce. And as I have tried to hint at, unless you are American, I don't really think you can understand why this matters so much to us, or how complicated it actually is. PDS has done more than hint. I don't believe that unless one is American one can never understand those Americans who are steadfast against any 'un-American' interpretation of the second amendment ...That the 2nd amendment matters very much to (some/most/all) Americans is one thing. That there is a range of opinion on what exactly it means is another thing. The 2nd amendment refers to 'a well-regulated militia'; are we to pretend that there is no debate or discussion about this -- that it has been settled forevermore in both the minds and habits of all Americans. Decoupling the right to bear arms from reference to a militia (be it well-organized/regulated), it still leaves the lawfulness of regulation/management of firearms open to argument.I asserted upthread that there would be no change in American gun laws in the aftermath of the slaughter by semi-automatic. I will amend that assertion to this: there will be a discussion in Congress that proposes new federal laws against possession of semi-automatic (assault) weapons. There will be gnashing of teeth and titanic feats of sophistry, and it will come to naught. I would also say it is bad form to keep picking at a wound--one that we Americans feel some sense of shame about but realize is, largely, the price of freedom we cherish, and now see under assault by the usual suspects who hate to "waste a crisis"--that hasn't had a chance to even begin to heal, let alone produce a scab. And then I would remind you that this is an issue that is not solved through feelings and glibness. Why is it bad form 'to keep picking at' this wound? There is no other wound that is off-limits to picking in a free society. And the very rhetorical device used to shame discussion? While PDS chastises Daunce for wound-picking and a lack of citizenship, Americans of many stripes are having wild discussions outside these precincts. Why should Daunce be charried for raising the same issues being raised across the board in the US today? Just because OL is not posting links or excerpts of that discussion doesn't mean that it is not occuring -- Daunce says little that is not currently featured in the mainstream and subsidiary media. Have all those Americans urging 'something be done' to control assault weapons become non-American also?The best take on PDS's evocation of The Americans is this: "It is complicated" ... So, is there any chance whatsoever that new regulations will be enforced against semi-automatic assault weapons? I doubt it very much (although several senators of the usual ilk will be tabling just such regulation ...).In the end, for some folks that we respect (like PDS) the issue boils down to the price you pay for gun freedom. What about the murder weapon, anybody? Bushmaster .223-caliber: lightweight with a high capacity, it also is popular with law enforcement and the military, and is commonly seen at shooting competitions. Two men convicted in a series of sniper killings in the Washington, D.C.-area in 2002 used a Bushmaster .223-caliber rifle that they fired from the trunk of a car at randomly picked victims. Some models have a detachable magazine that can hold up to 30 rounds. The medical examiner in Connecticut said it appeared all the children and school staff were shot with the same high-powered rifle, some repeatedly, some at close range. Edited December 17, 2012 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I thoroughly agree with Jonathan's lampooning of Lindsay Perigo's truly awful "Two Lanzas, Two Americas."It combines so many hallmarks of Perigo. Poor research. Garbled sociology. Neologisms of excruciating obtuseness. Grindlingly bad analogies. Cognitive distortions. Nameless evuls. Shades of hysteria from purple to screaming fire engine red. Edited December 17, 2012 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This is more of the same: imagine an insane 'solution' to a problem, a 'solution' obviously impractical. If that solution can't happen, then status quo.I think that any proposed solution would have to be demonstrated to be better than the status quo. And that would mean not ignoring the consequences of the proposed solution, such as some of the examples of consequences that Adam and George have posted. Before rushing to implement new "solutions," I'd say that the principle of "first do no harm" should be applied. What is the cost of trying to stop every instance of violence/insanity? Carol appears to be willing to force others to pay quite a high price. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 [Ba'al Chatzaf wrote in post # 363]:I don't go around killing little children with a firearm sitting in a classroom. I build guidance systems for cruise missiles to do a much more thorough job on children in the Middle East.Ba'al ChatzafAre you serious about this, Bob and not just being sarcastic? You really mean it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This is more of the same: imagine an insane 'solution' to a problem, a 'solution' obviously impractical. If that solution can't happen, then status quo.What is the cost of trying to stop every instance of violence/insanity? Carol appears to be willing to force others to pay quite a high price.The weapon. A military-style weapon that fires automatic rounds from removable clips.Carol is irrelevant to changing law. Only you guys can do that. We are but neighbours saying what some of your householders are saying. We have no rights in your house. In other words I totally understand the Shuttup you Canucki Socialist Neighbour.What is the cost of trying to stop (another instance like that in Connecticutt) violence/insanity? That's a good question for which we have a bit of data. We could cost out Brant's recommendations of hard-shelling primary/elementary schools. All that will take money. All that will cost some intangible freedom, and make schools armed enclaves. Debate is free. These fraught issues are where Americans thrash out every last implication of the events. I understand that OL is kind of a cul-de-sac where mostly Objectivish opinions are lodged, but it certainly does not mirror America -- in that sense the 'wound-picking foreigners' seem to be standing in for detestable American ideas that are just not reflected here much, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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