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Wow...A Walter Cronkite moment on OL!

If Mr. Coates has lost Carol...This is not the Mekong Delta either. As to realistic but unsatisfactory, I deny that I am either one,

Adam!!!

Don't you just love when a woman screams your name...

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> Sorry; there was only Adam and Carol exchanging two posts of banter.

Sorry, that's not accurate.

And my point was not about banter, it was about lazy posting on things which require thought or a bit more detail.

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> you are not in the Ford Hall here, you are in a diner, an arts cafe, a hangout.

Yes, but occasionally if the artistes are going to tackle serious issues you want them to do so in a more thorough way than one-liners, zingers, and put downs.

The subject matter merits it.

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Phil should have

> Sorry; there was only Adam and Carol exchanging two posts of banter.

Sorry, that's not accurate.

And my point was not about banter, it was about lazy posting on things which require thought or a bit more detail.

Then quote whom you are criticizing. Post by post. This isn't a classroom where the whole class gets slapped down by teacher because two or three displease him.

--Brant

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> Then quote whom you are criticizing. Post by post.

Not going to do your work for you. Especially when all you have to do is read the -preceding- eight or ten posts.

And you don't even have to do that. Just use your memory and reflect on how often you yourself and many others use lazy one-liners or slothful posts. Every freaking day.

Brant, this is not even a debatable issue. You are just trying to slip and slide out from under it.

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> Then quote whom you are criticizing. Post by post.

Not going to do your work for you. Especially when all you have to do is read the -preceding- eight or ten posts.

And you don't even have to do that. Just use your memory and reflect on how often you yourself and many others use lazy one-liners or slothful posts. Every freaking day.

Brant, this is not even a debatable issue. You are just trying to slip and slide out from under it.

On post 33 you congrat us for what we are doing and on post 49 you dump on us. There is something about the way your mind is structured that doesn't properly engage whom you are talking to about what. You think you are, that's now obvious, but you aren't. If you didn't like posts 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, why didn't you do something more productive than suddenly reappear and dump on the situation instead of making a positive contribution of getting the thread back on its original tracks or simply let it peter out naturally? You want me to write elaborate paragraphs full of think? Did you ever consider that what is going on in my life RIGHT NOW precludes me doing that HERE? I do and read and write what I have time for. You want more? Cut me a check, a big check.

--Brant

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No doubt blowing up the housing project was a coup de théâtre. As for the act manifesting Roark's lack of empathy - it would interest me whether Rand has ever been interviewed in detail about this scene, and been asked whether she would endorse such an act in real life as well.

I don't think so. Not for public consumption. You can't do this in real life unless you're willing to possibly kill some people. Even in the novel, Dominique almost got it. Ragnar in Atlas couldn't do what he did for a host of reasons, but absent those reasons, he would still have had to kill and maim many, many people. This is one reason Rand kept him mostly in the background. Maybe there was some Errol Flynn influence at work there.

--Brant

Rand was a romantic through and through when it comes to heroes like Danneskjöld (D'Anconia is another example). Imo the romantic portrayal of some Rand characters (all resembling Cyrus, the beloved fictional hero of her childhood days), is also a reason why AS cannot be convincingly made into a film. A Ragnar shown in film as he is presented in the novel might even cause the audience to giggle.

As for D'Anconia, I have the impression that he was somewhat 'de-romanticized' for the AS Part 1 movie; as a result several people criticized that this was in no way like the D' Anconia as portrayed in the novel.

But as with Danneskjöld, showing D'Anconia as he is in the book would be problematic.

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> On post 33 you congrat us for what we are doing and on post 49 you dump on us.

Jeez, that should be freaking obvious. On post 33 I was complimenting one thing and on post 49 I was criticizing a different or later development.

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> On post 33 you congrat us for what we are doing and on post 49 you dump on us.

Jeez, that should be freaking obvious. On post 33 I was complimenting one thing and on post 49 I was criticizing a different or later development.

Manifested in which subsequent posts? Was it 37 or 39 or 44 or 45-47 or what? Which of the subsequent posts are deemed all right by you? Any? Without you being specific, everybody who posted gets smeared over. It's an absolute killer. Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon and the implicit totalitarian model of the teacher knowing the truth and passing it on, but screw true critical thinking. This is your attitude toward Objectivism: the text is set, the text is true, the text is hereby revealed and lets go out and spread it around. To me that's anti-intellectual, dogmatic undigested and indigestible garbage.

The only tolerable lectures are those I pick and choose and PAY money to go to or just hear. If you didn't post so much and start so many threads you'd still be on my "ignore" list, but that, sadly, didn't work.

--Brant

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

I didn't go to a Catholic school.

Seriously, I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.) I really think you need more space here and you could still post elsewhere on OL to your heart's content.

How about it, Michael?

--Brant

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

I didn't go to a Catholic school.

Seriously, I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.)

How about it, Michael?

--Brant

If this were a motion, I would second it.

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According to Robert's Rules, the motion has been made and properly seconded. If the chair hears no motion to table, or refer it to committee for a report, it should be voted on by the assembly...

oops, damn, forgot this is a benevolent oligarchy!

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Hmmm, you mean in my own corner I can simply delete insults from ND, Jonathan...and youse guys??? :cool:

Hmmmm...sounds good to me...what's the catch???

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I believe that'd be what you could do. Not having (or wanting) my own corner, I'm not sure. But I believe Stephen has deleted parts of others' posts from threads in his corner. You couldn't be ham-fisted, of course, or people wouldn't contribute. If I were to make a post of several paragraphs and you were to delete one of them without good cause and explanation or if you were to edit me, the first time would be the last time. If you were to simply delete the whole post, maybe asking me to rewrite it, that'd be different. What I cannot stand is someone touching anything I've written. Take it or leave it. That I could deal with. The downside for you is your threads instead of being 100 to 200 or so posts long may end up with 10 to 20 or 30.

--Brant

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

I didn't go to a Catholic school.

--Brant

Lucky for you! If you had, you might have been driven from thoughtful Objectivism into raving anarchy.

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If this were a motion, I would second it.

I oppose. Phil already runs amuck even with active opposition. Since there’s no way for a visitor to the site to tell that a thread is subject to unique moderation it will give a false impression that OL is the domain of yahoos and knuckleheads as he floods the site with old whines in new bottles. He should start his own blog, separate from OL, especially after this performance:

BOTTOM LINE:

I will never post on your site again. I would prefer not to have anything further to do with you or to communicate with you again. Quite frankly, your weakness and double standards disgust me.

Besides, can’t you all predict what will happen? Phil will start another of his schoolmarming self-serving threads, and I (or Jonathan, or WSS, my fellow snark-pack masters of the quote function) will start another thread, outside his corner, copying his opening post and then answering his bullshit where he can’t do anything about it. It’ll be a mess.

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> give a false impression that OL is the domain of yahoos and knuckleheads

Unlike yourself, of course.... :huh:

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Hmmm, you mean in my own corner I can simply delete insults from ND, Jonathan...and youse guys??? :cool:

Hmmmm...sounds good to me...what's the catch???

Doesn't seem to be any "catch" Mr. Coates:

snapback.pngMichael Stuart Kelly, in a very kind open offer to Phil Coates,, on 14 July 2009 - 12:19 PM, said:

[H]ere is a public invitation to you I have not discussed with anyone.

[ ... ]

Kat and I have a small place here on OL called "Corners of Further Insight" that has the writings of a series of authors, including Roger and Robert. I'm willing to open a "Phil Coates Corner" if you are interested.

The idea would be to have a place where you could present your ideas and test them out with people in your universe without having to chase an audience. By being online and on a regularly read forum with a small but select audience, it would be easy to search and promote.

[ ... ]My own interest is to get you going—to give you a point of reference you can fall back on and point to.

Let me know what you think. If you don't want that, no hard feelings and I won't mention it again (especially not as a jab if we bicker). If you do, it's yours.

Yes, Phil was offered his own Corner of Insight, his own place at OL.

Phil's response to this offer? Well, searching in that thread, he said nothing in response to the offer.

Not mentioned in detail at the time is that a Corner of Insight gives to the author the means to control responses. As with an OL blog, the author has an entire suite of options: no comments allowed, comments allowed only with moderation, comments put through automatically. In each case, the author retains the ability to edit or delete comments.

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In the thread titled "Off to Vegas for Free Minds 09 & Freedom Fest," Phil Coates introduced a memoir of his NYC days, in post number 54. This is the kind of story from Phil that I really like: he doesn't bother trying to control the classroom, simply gives his testimony. It was a good thread, full of goodwill from folks like Barbara Branden, who went out of her way to offer her insights and assistance to Phil. In this instance, he blew off everything she said, and evaded all self-responsibility. He sees himself as a Teacher in every instance, and simply will not take advice or help from any quarter.

Indeed, to any kind of criticism or challenge, his first impulse is ...

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

Yes, Teacher. One way to regain control of a class is to threaten physical punishment.

I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.)

Oddly, as noted above in a cross-post, Phil has been offered his own Tribune here at OL.

Hmmm, you mean in my own corner I can simply delete insults from ND, Jonathan...and youse guys?

Hmmmm...sounds good to me...what's the catch?

Well, the only catch is you are too craven and behaviourally rigid to respond to the original offer. Your ongoing attempts to turn everything into a classroom with you at the Head stains and blisters your efforts.

BOTTOM LINE:

I will never post on your site again. I would prefer not to have anything further to do with you or to communicate with you again. Quite frankly, your weakness and double standards disgust me.

Did you get that, Michael? Phil will never post on your site again. Your weakness and double standards disgust him.

Isn't that interesting ...

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Barbara Branden, to Phil, in the "Las Vegas" thread wherein she gave Phil some very good advice:

Phil has every reason to feel profoundly hurt by his treatment. The only way he could avoid being hurt is to be a total cynic, and to expect nothing from other people
Phil, from what you've said, the work you've done is too important to be hidden away. Have you considered creating a blog, where you could publish it yourself ad get responses from people interested in the issues?

Barbara Branden again, in the same thread:

Phil, you have people right here on OL who would like to help, myself among them. Don't lump us in with the people who have disappointed you. Take advantage of offers to help. Perhaps some of us will disappoint you; but perhaps some of us won't.

Now, what did Phil have to say to Barbara's kind offer then?

Fuck all.

What does Phil have to say about Barbara's kind offer today?

Fuck all.

What did Phil have to say to Michael Stuart Kelly, in a demonstration of his social retardation, in the very same thread?

I'll stick an even tougher New York City boy's boot so far up your hillbilly ass that you'll taste shoe leather.

What did Phil have to say to Robert Campbell, who also offered to help him get published, and who gave him some sage advice on publishing? What kind of thanks did he give Robert when Robert sent him off a copy of JARS?

FUCK ALL

What did Phil have to say to James H-N in that same thread, in response to straightforward support and encouragement by James?

FUCK ALL

What positive, grateful and humble responses did Phil give to other OL posters in that self-same thread, other posters who also encouraged him and offered him every assistance to aid him in achieving his goals?

SWEET FUCK ALL

How many promises did Phil make to 'follow up' on responses that he noted as somewhat worthwhile -- and needing careful responses: Five -- from MSK, from Stephen Boydstun, from James Heaps-Nelson, from Barbara, from Robert Campbell ... (the old "many interesting points, Dude/ette, which I will answer separately blah blah ..." dodge which we have become accustomed to)

How many of Phil's promised responses appeared on OL?

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING RESPONSE

How many items, mentions or critiques of that storied JARS edition have appeared anywhere on earth under the name Philip Agamemnon Lector Coates, MA? Do you really have to ask?

FUCK ALL

Finally, just off the top of my head, thinking hard, with every last afterburner engaged, how many times has Phil actually taken any advice that would require him to alter some deeply-rooted and self-thwarting behaviour (as for example, his demented insistence on following circa-1995 mailing-list conventions of referencing discussion posts? Don't look yet. Think really really hard, all the way back to Phil's first bitchy snarky opening sneer here at OL. How many times?

Not a single time.

How much respect do I have for someone who so consistently shits on people who in good faith try to help him realize his goals?

Not a great deal at the moment. Until Phil faces up to his own demons errors in communication, I have vowed to harry him unmercifully on the points above until I either die in a fit of apoplexy or he gives way in good faith and gets in the game.

In the meantime, I think I am becoming demented myself. Forget that stupid vow. I did put Phil on ignore for a reason. He goes back in the doghouse now -- it is time for me to get back to my OL emotion/cognition/sociopathy/evil/fMRI cite hunt, speaking of evaded promise, and return to my previous obsession with Syria slaughter and horror and cultism. Phil is like catching legless frogs. That should be beneath me, no? Haven't I done enough, sob sob. Look at me, he has made me half-mad at my own lectern, rambling on at astonishing length with deranged footnotes to boot

Hmmm. I need a new behaviour myself, methinks. The next time I respond to him or his bullshit should be in French, tersely, on my OL blog, lest I become as tiresome and grandiose as Phil himself. Why should I spread my fudge on his shit? What was I thinking?

Let us see, have I anything interesting or original to say, actually, under all the splodge of faux-Burroughs reticulation/prose?

Well, um, hey -- here is a conversation starter:

Did anyone note and puzzle over my Meyers-Briggs plug in my signature line? I think Meyers-Briggs is horseshit. What thinks you?

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[Phil] sees himself as a Teacher in every instance, and simply will not take advice or help from any quarter.

At this point, I'd venture that he's also seeing himself as the Great-Minded versus the Petty-Minded.

Well, um, hey -- here is a conversation starter:

Did anyone note and puzzle over my Meyers-Briggs plug in my signature line? I think Meyers-Briggs is horseshit. What thinks you?

I think it's botched and trite Jung, which Jung would have groaned at. But -- spoiler alert -- I doubt I'll get into it.

(I copied the whole post, just in case you "think better" of it and delete or alter it. That was a speech and then some.)

Ellen

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon

Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.

I didn't go to a Catholic school.

Seriously, I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.) I really think you need more space here and you could still post elsewhere on OL to your heart's content.

How about it, Michael?

--Brant

I have my own "corner," and so far as I know I have no power to delete comments.

Ghs

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.
I didn't go to a Catholic school. Seriously, I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.) I really think you need more space here and you could still post elsewhere on OL to your heart's content. How about it, Michael? --Brant
I have my own "corner," and so far as I know I have no power to delete comments. Ghs

George,

Not that you ever wanted to, right?

Er...right?

Tony (nervous)

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> Yes, you are continually pushing my button. I hate many, many memories of my elementary school teachers and classrooms--teachers who did exactly what you do here. I hate lectures and being lectured--and talked down upon Sit down and shut up or I'll rap your knuckles.
I didn't go to a Catholic school. Seriously, I think you should have your own "corner" here on OL. That way you could delete the snarky, unproductive comments. Better for everybody. It works swell for Stephen. I think it would for you too. (And you could keep the discussion on track.) I really think you need more space here and you could still post elsewhere on OL to your heart's content. How about it, Michael? --Brant
I have my own "corner," and so far as I know I have no power to delete comments. Ghs

George,

Not that you ever wanted to, right?

Er...right?

Tony (nervous)

With only one exception that I can recall (when I was repeatedly accused of "extortion" by some nut), I have never desired to have any posts deleted from threads in my corner.

As I understand it, the "corners" are given to people who have published extensively and whose works are of interest to OLers; they are not given to isolate someone who annoys many Olers. The odds that Michael would give Phil his own corner are only slightly worse than the odds that I will be trampled to death in Bloomington by a herd of angry elephants.

Ghs

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