BaalChatzaf

who's a bird brain?

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Interesting article on the intelligence of crows here:

http://www.guardian....t/2012/jan/04/1

Also gray parrots are extremely intelligent.

See http://en.wikipedia....can_Grey_Parrot

The late gray parrot Alex had remarkable abilities.

My sister keeps a gray parrot and the bird can imitate human voices remarkably well. Also the parrot can say meaningful things. When I visited my sister, her gray said to me::" Hey Bob, are you hungry tonight? Linda is making a steak. "

Linda is my sister's name.

I would swear on a stack of Ayn Rand novels that the parrot knew what it was saying.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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This calls to mind one of Christopher Hitchens' anecdotes. When he visited North Korea he went to the zoo and saw a parrot that praised the Dear Leader using the same phrases that everyone else used.

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This calls to mind one of Christopher Hitchens' anecdotes. When he visited North Korea he went to the zoo and saw a parrot that praised the Dear Leader using the same phrases that everyone else used.

That might be what the interpreter told him. How would he otherwise know? But regardless, the bottom line is the same. I imagine the parrot did just that and he was trained to do just that. I must emphasize--which is why I'm making this inane post--THE PARROT IS INNOCENT!

--Brant

I usually do better with the humor--this is Phil-type stuff--but it makes my diamonds stand out more

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> I usually do better with the humor

No you don't.

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That might be what the interpreter told him. How would he otherwise know?

If the phrase is something short and distinctive like “Heil Hitler” or “Allahu Akbar”, I don’t think it’s a problem. As I recall, however, CH had an interpreter/chaperone with him the whole time, so that's probably the answer.

> I usually do better with the humor

No you don't.

Yes he does.

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Are any animals “on the verge” of becoming “more than animals?” Peter
From: Ellen Stuttle To: atlantis Subject: ATL: Question to Jeff Olson (was Gayle Dean on Volition, Conception, and Animality) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:13:41 -0500

Jeff-O, I keep trying to get around to addressing the questions you raise, and I keep having trouble "getting a handle" on your questions, because I think that you're using the term "will" in a way which is "on a different page" than the one I'm on.

For instance, you wrote: >If individual human will varies, then doesn't it follow that different individuals possess different degrees of will, and therefore different degrees of responsibility for their actions?  If some individuals do possess more "willpower" than others -- if it is easier, for instance, for some individuals to be moral than for others -- then how can their moral culpability or praiseworthiness be considered equal?

What it sounds to me like you're talking about is "will" defined as some sort of ability just to *make* (viola!) actions happen -- indeed, your usage of "will" sounds to me like the way I've often heard Christians use it (excuse me, Debbie, people whom I'd think of as being "Christians," whether you'd agree or not).  And it sounds like the way Dennis May uses it, as some sort of outside-the-scheme- of-the-natural-world "power."  But this isn't even "volition" as I mean "volition."  (To repeat for the definition I use:  "the capacity for self-aware regulation, within limits, of one's mental activities"; note: it might be better to say, "of what one's awareness is doing.")

I'm not finding that I can get a grip on how the term "volition" as I use it connects with the problems which you raise.  So I wonder if you could give me a definition for what you mean by "will." Ellen S.

From: "Jeff Olson" To: "atlantis" Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:22:04 -0800

You're right, Ellen, I haven't been entirely clear in my use of the word "will," especially about how it relates to "volition." By "will," I think people customarily mean the strength and efficacy of one's desire to act; "volition" generally refers to (conscious) regulation of one's mind.  The two are pretty much inextricably entwined, as I'm sure you'd agree. So when I speak of "will," I'm speaking of the sum of mental regulatory processes leading up to a given action, beginning with the choice to focus on something and ending with the choice to act.  By "variable will," I mean differences in the ability to initiate/control all the processes which lead to an action, beginning with differences in the ability to initiate and maintain focus (clearly that's a necessary first step in any action), and ending with the final choice to effect a desire. Jeff

From: BBfromM To: atlantis Subject: Re: ATL: Re: animal conceptuality? Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:54:48 EST

Ellen Moore asked: << Can any one of you animal volitionists provide us with a certain example of an abstract animal concept?  >>

I'm not an animal volitionist, nor do I think that animals (except for my cat) commonly think in abstractions, but I can give you one example that always has fascinated me because it seems more than perceptual; it appears to involve some level of abstraction. If, by accident, you step on you pet's paw or otherwise hurt her, she does not run away as she would do if you had deliberately hurt her as punishment for something.   Generally, she will come to you to be comforted instead. I don't, of course, mean that the pet thinks: On, that was an accident, she didn't mean to do it, so I don't need to be afraid. But in some way, the rather complex difference between the accidental and the intentional is "grasped." Barbara

From: Santos To: atlantis

But in punishing a pet, you use verbal and body language, which the pet understands.  In accidentally stepping on a paw or tail, it is not prefaced by a firm voice and action towards the cat. (I'm willing to bet, Barbara, That YOU take the initiative in the comforting.) Patricia

From: BBfromM

Patricia Santos wrote: << But in punishing a pet, you use verbal and body language, which the pet understands.  In accidentally stepping on a paw or tail, it is not prefaced by a firm voice and action towards the cat. (I'm willing to bet, Barbara, that YOU take the initiative in the comforting. >>

This doesn't answer the question, it simply makes the pet's understanding more complex. Because you have the pet "grasping" that punishment is preceded by a certain kind of language, and accident is not. Barbara

From: Michael Hardy To: atlantis

I don't think this issue of animal conceptuality is as philosophically important as some people seem to think.  Ayn Rand made some assertions about the differences between us and other animals, but her philosophical point was about the differences between the ways we do or should function mentally, on the one hand, and the ways we would function if we had only lower, non-rational mental abilities.

Barbara wrote: >If, by accident, you step on you pet's paw or otherwise hurt her, she does not run away as she would do if you had deliberately hurt her

Some people may recall Kurt Keefner expressed the view, and I agreed, that animals not only are able to read expressions on people's faces, but by doing so are *directly* aware of people's moods and states of mind.  By "directly" I mean it is not a *conscious* inference of the person's state of mind from what is seen, but rather what is seen causes an awareness of the state of mind by a non-conscious and (I suspect) hard-wired causal process.  I think that same process in humans makes possible the ability of cartoonists to portray people's moods via an amazingly small number of strokes of the pen. Mike Hardy

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

Are any animals “on the verge” of becoming “more than animals?” Peter
 

What would happen if you took the most intelligent males and females of some species of animal and mated them together and continued in this manner for lots of generations? Could dogs, chimps, whatever be selectively bred to equal humans in intelligence?

I think there is a limit based on the gene pool. To exceed the limit would require a mutation.

 

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1 hour ago, jts said:

What would happen if you took the most intelligent males and females of some species of animal and mated them together and continued in this manner for lots of generations? Could dogs, chimps, whatever be selectively bred to equal humans in intelligence?

I think there is a limit based on the gene pool. To exceed the limit would require a mutation.

 

Mutations! Wasn’t that a song from “Fiddler on the Roof?”

Has anyone ever had their genome mapped? Hey, Caveman. Some people are upset if they have DNA found in other races, but there is recent evidence that homo sapiens “mated” with Neanderthals. Did that diversifying fact aid in our evolution and survivability? Perhaps. I have also heard that humans share a huge amount of DNA with every living species on earth. If we are the only intelligent species to survive (so far) are we keeping another potentially intelligent species “down” by our mere presence? I don’t think so, but I wonder if another intelligence species will evolve if we die off, as in “Planet of the Apes?” Will Ice Ages, or heat waves have any lasting effect on humans? Could a vegetarian species ever evolve into an intelligent being?

A recent news story was about how men adjusting the thermostat will usually put it on 72 to 74 degrees Fahrenheit but women put it a few degrees warmer. I always say, “you can put more clothes on but you can’t take them off (beyond a certain point) without going nude so the men should have the final say.       

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On 1/5/2012 at 9:53 AM, BaalChatzaf said:

Interesting article on the intelligence of crows here:

http://www.guardian....t/2012/jan/04/1

Also gray parrots are extremely intelligent.

See http://en.wikipedia....can_Grey_Parrot

The late gray parrot Alex had remarkable abilities.

My sister keeps a gray parrot and the bird can imitate human voices remarkably well. Also the parrot can say meaningful things. When I visited my sister, her gray said to me::" Hey Bob, are you hungry tonight? Linda is making a steak. "

Linda is my sister's name.

I would swear on a stack of Ayn Rand novels that the parrot knew what it was saying.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Object Permanence is when a being understands that an object does not cease to exist merely because it is not in view. A baby loves peek–a–boo because she is shocked to see you exist, again.

I forget the statistics, but the average baby reaches object permanence in a few months.

Dogs and some parrot species reach it sooner.

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Where's Waldo? I was watching the PBS show, "Midsummer Murders" last night and one of its plot twists was how things can be "hidden" in a photo but if you examine the snap shot and ignore the things in the forefront you can discover amazing things, lurking or just not directly perceived.     

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Is Cosmo a birdbrain? Cosmo Sheldrake, a young Brit, does that iphone commercial, “Come along.” Very catchy song but the lyrics look almost Harry Potter-ish. Listen to it on utube or wherever. How odd. A commercial makes you famous, eh what? Peter    

Come along catch a Heffalump
Sit with me on a muddy clump
We'll sing a song of days gone by

Run along now don't be glum
Get you gone now have some fun
Don't be long for the end is nigh

Don't let moments pass along
And waste before your eyes
March with me and the borogoves
Come with me and the slithy toves
And never ask us why

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

We'll be here when the world slows down
And the sunbeams fade away
Keeping time by a pendulum
As the fabric starts to fray

There's no such thing as time to kill
Nor time to throw away
So once for the bright sky
Twice for the pig sty
Thrice for another day

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

Come with me catch a rare type specimen
Cuddle up with a hesitant skeleton
We'll break our fast with friends

Once we're fed we shall disappear rapidly
Many moons to the west of here and happily
Our journey never ends

Shut your ears when sirens sing
Tie armbands to your feet
Listen up and you won't go wrong again
Float along on a verse-less song and then
Get to where the two ends meet

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

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6 minutes ago, Peter said:

Is Cosmo a birdbrain? Cosmo Sheldrake, a young Brit, does that iphone commercial, “Come along.” Very catchy song but the lyrics look almost Harry Potter-ish. Listen to it on utube or wherever. How odd. A commercial makes you famous, eh what? Peter    

 

Come along catch a Heffalump
Sit with me on a muddy clump
We'll sing a song of days gone by

Run along now don't be glum
Get you gone now have some fun
Don't be long for the end is nigh

Don't let moments pass along
And waste before your eyes
March with me and the borogoves
Come with me and the slithy toves
And never ask us why

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

We'll be here when the world slows down
And the sunbeams fade away
Keeping time by a pendulum
As the fabric starts to fray

There's no such thing as time to kill
Nor time to throw away
So once for the bright sky
Twice for the pig sty
Thrice for another day

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

Come with me catch a rare type specimen
Cuddle up with a hesitant skeleton
We'll break our fast with friends

Once we're fed we shall disappear rapidly
Many moons to the west of here and happily
Our journey never ends

Shut your ears when sirens sing
Tie armbands to your feet
Listen up and you won't go wrong again
Float along on a verse-less song and then
Get to where the two ends meet

Come, come, come, come, come along now
Run away from the hum-drum
We'll go to a place that is safe from
Greed, anger and boredom

We'll dance and sing 'til sundown
And feast with abandon
We'll sleep when the morning comes
And we'll rise by the sound of the birdsongs

Peter, that looks like a nice song, but get a grip. This is not Objectivist Singalongs. Do you really want to do the baritone part of "Zadok the Priest" or  lip-synch "una lagrima lacrima" ?

Because itmight come to that.

Just a friendly warning.

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1 minute ago, caroljane said:

Peter, that looks like a nice song, but get a grip. This is not Objectivist Singalongs. Do you really want to do the baritone part of "Zadok the Priest" or  lip-synch "una lagrima lacrima" ?

Because itmight come to that.

Just a friendly warning. 

Could you hum a few bars of In a Garda de Vita, or whatever that late sixties song was. 

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4 minutes ago, Peter said:

Could you hum a few bars of In a Garda de Vita, or whatever that late sixties song was. 

lol  you have already hummed all I can remember of those lyrics, except!!  "baby".. completes the phrase.  

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Iron Butterfly was supposed to be singing, 'In a garden of Eden, honey," but he was too wasted to speak plainly, and dad gum it, they liked the doped version better,  In a gadda de vita or whatever.

But still, the best mash up ever is the Hawaiian, “Over the rainbow / What a wonderful world by “IZ” or Israel Kamakawiwoʻole. I asked his family what he was saying in Hawaiian at the end and they said he was just riffing. On utube. Peter, graduate of Radford High School, Honolulu, Hawaii.  

From Wikipedia:  Kamakawiwoʻole's recording of "Over the Rainbow/What a Wonderful World" gained notice in 1999 when an excerpt was used in the TV commercials for eToys.com (now part of Toys "R" Us). The full song was featured in the movies K-Pax, Meet Joe Black, Finding Forrester, Son of the Mask, 50 First Dates, Fred Claus and IMAX: Hubble 3D.[21] It was also featured in TV series ER, American Dad!, Scrubs, Cold Case, Glee, South Pacific, Lost, Storm Chasers, and in the UK original version of Life on Mars among others.[22]

Israel called the recording studio at 3 am. He was given 15 minutes to arrive by Milan Bertosa. Bertosa said, "And in walks the largest human being I had seen in my life. Israel was probably like 500 pounds. And the first thing at hand is to find something for him to sit on." A security guard gave Israel a large steel chair. "Then I put up some microphones, do a quick sound check, roll tape, and the first thing he does is 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow.' He played and sang, one take, and it was over."[23]

"Over the Rainbow/What a Wonderful World" reached #12 on Billboard's Hot Digital Tracks chart the week of January 31, 2004 (for the survey week ending January 18, 2004). It passed the 2 million paid downloads mark in the USA by September 27, 2009, and then sold 3 million in the USA as of October 2, 2011.[24] And as of October 2014, the song has sold over 4.2 million digital copies.[25] In addition, the song holds the distinction of being the longest-leading number one hit on any of the Billboard song charts, having spent 185 weeks at number one on the publication's World Digital Songs chart.[25]

On July 8, 2007, Kamakawiwoʻole debuted at No. 44 on the Billboard Top 200 Album Chart with "Wonderful World," selling 17,000 units.[26]

 

 

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I will put this in the bird brain section. Number 8 is spot on. Enigmas from the Web: (1) Isn't it weird that in America our flag and our culture offend so many people, but our benefits don't?

(2) How can the federal government ask U.S. citizens to pay back student loans, when illegal aliens are receiving a free education?

(3) Only in America are legal citizens labeled "racists" and "Nazis" but illegal aliens are called "Dreamers."

(4) Liberals say, "If confiscating all guns saves just one life, it's worth it!" Well then, if deporting all illegals saves just one life, wouldn't that be worth it?

(5) I can't quite figure out how you can proudly wave the flag of another country but consider it punishment to be sent back there.

(6) The Constitution: It doesn't need to be rewritten; it needs to be reread.

(7) William F. Buckley said: "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other points of view and are then shocked and offended when they discover there are other points of view."

(8) Joseph Sobran said: “'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."

(9) Florida has had 119 hurricanes since 1850, but some people still insist the last one was due to climate change.

(10) You can’t fix stupid…. I don’t care how much duct tape you use!

Lawyer joke: One afternoon a lawyer was riding along in his big limousine, when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass. Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop, and he got out to investigate.

He asked one man, "Why are you eating grass?"

"We don't have any money for food," the poor man replied. "We have to eat grass."

"Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I'll feed you," the lawyer said.

"But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there eating grass under that tree."

"Bring them along," the lawyer replied.

Turning to the second poor man he stated, "You may come with us, also."

The other man, in a pitiful voice, then said, "But sir, I also have a wife and six children with me!"

"Bring them all as well," the lawyer answered.

They all entered the car, which was no easy task, even for a car as large as the limousine. Once under way, one of the poor fellows turned to the lawyer and said, "Sir, you are too kind. Thank you for taking all of us with you."

The lawyer replied, "Glad to do it. You'll really love my place. The grass is almost a foot high."

Did you really think there was such a thing as a heart-warming lawyer story? Look at Congress -- over 300 Lawyers.

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31 minutes ago, Peter said:

I will put this in the bird brain section. Number 8 is spot on. Enigmas from the Web: (1) Isn't it weird that in America our flag and our culture offend so many people, but our benefits don't?

 

(2) How can the federal government ask U.S. citizens to pay back student loans, when illegal aliens are receiving a free education?

 

(3) Only in America are legal citizens labeled "racists" and "Nazis" but illegal aliens are called "Dreamers."

 

(4) Liberals say, "If confiscating all guns saves just one life, it's worth it!" Well then, if deporting all illegals saves just one life, wouldn't that be worth it?

 

(5) I can't quite figure out how you can proudly wave the flag of another country but consider it punishment to be sent back there.

 

(6) The Constitution: It doesn't need to be rewritten; it needs to be reread.

 

(7) William F. Buckley said: "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other points of view and are then shocked and offended when they discover there are other points of view."

 

(8) Joseph Sobran said: “'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."

 

(9) Florida has had 119 hurricanes since 1850, but some people still insist the last one was due to climate change.

 

(10) You can’t fix stupid…. I don’t care how much duct tape you use!

 

Lawyer joke: One afternoon a lawyer was riding along in his big limousine, when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass. Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop, and he got out to investigate.

 

He asked one man, "Why are you eating grass?"

 

"We don't have any money for food," the poor man replied. "We have to eat grass."

 

"Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I'll feed you," the lawyer said.

 

"But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there eating grass under that tree."

 

"Bring them along," the lawyer replied.

 

Turning to the second poor man he stated, "You may come with us, also."

 

The other man, in a pitiful voice, then said, "But sir, I also have a wife and six children with me!"

 

"Bring them all as well," the lawyer answered.

 

They all entered the car, which was no easy task, even for a car as large as the limousine. Once under way, one of the poor fellows turned to the lawyer and said, "Sir, you are too kind. Thank you for taking all of us with you."

 

The lawyer replied, "Glad to do it. You'll really love my place. The grass is almost a foot high."

 

Did you really think there was such a thing as a heart-warming lawyer story? Look at Congress -- over 300 Lawyers.

Jolly good!  

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