Frotteurism - Peikoff weighs in on its moral and psychological taxonomy

[9thdoctor]

Is it immoral to enjoy a crowded subway lapdance? What about airborne cake flying in the direction of your mouth?

http://www.peikoff.c...could-do-to-av/

Still unanswered: if some hideous medusa were your unchosen partner, how many years of subsequent impotence would result, assuming you have a shred of morality/self-esteem etc.?

[Brant Gaede]

Why didn't her students ask Ayn Rand these questions?

--Brant

it's okay guy, as long as you didn't unzip your pants

[anthony]

That's about as earthy as i've heard him, not having heard many of his podcasts.

I somehow would have expected a moralizing answer, so I'll give him 10/10 for surprising me.

[studiodekadent]

If frotteurism occurs accidentally on the subway, I don't see how that's a moral issue. Big deal, the guy enjoyed a someone he found attractive pressing against him.

How is this even considered a philosophical issue?

Either someone is deliberately trolling Lenny, or some Objectivists don't seem to be able to make their own evaluations!!!

[Selene]

Why is he answering these questions is the question.

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Wow!

What's amazing is how dumb some of these questions are that Peikoff and Diana H (not to equate them in terms of intellectual stature - just the fact they are the only two people fielding all this stuff in a podcast or webcast) get asked.

It seems that some people who are just getting interested in Rand, have just read Atlas, etc. seem to have four heads, their eyes extend on little green stalks two feet above them, and they have just stepped off the spaceship from Alpha Centauri. They have unbelievably little understanding of human beings, real life, common sense, their emotions, or other people's emotions.

I don't recall -any- of the questions at the old Peikoff lectures I attended being anywhere near this "out of it" or naive or propellorhead-ish. I do admire the patience of P and D, though in not taking any offense, being willing to answer all sorts of questions without ridicule (although clearly P was having a huge chortle at this question.)

[9thdoctor]

How is this even considered a philosophical issue?

I only posted it for the lulz. There’s another part of the same podcast where he talks about adolescents engaging in…how to call it(?), proto-homosexual behavior such as mutual masturbation. There are even bigger laughs to be had there, but I don’t know how to extract them, at least not quickly (this was just a Monday morning hit and run).

[Reidy]

I'll never ride a subway with anybody from ARI again.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There is something really smutty about sex here in the USA that I still have not gotten used to since returning from Brazil.

The whole idea of a lap dance is weird to me. I'm not trying to be a snob. It really is weird.

Also, I am from the South. I grew up learning how to treat women I don't know cordially.

I just can't see getting a lap-dance on the sly from a strange woman and thinking I got something for free. That's smutty. That's like saying a man will hump anything anytime, especially if he can hide it from the humped one.

If a lady doesn't know something is going on, it reminds me of that gross practice some kids used to do of giving a woman a knock-out pill and having sex with her while she was unconscious. It's so easy to say something to the lady in the subway like, "Sorry, I can't move," and smile disarmingly.

(A singer I once produced used to look at me and say, "Damn! I've got it bad. I gotta hump somethin'." And I would say, "Stop looking at me... I can't help you out! You want my shoe? You can hump that!" )

There's something else, too. What if she is a creep as a person? Being beautiful is no guarantee of being a good person. Maybe I'm too picky, but I've always had trouble being sexually interested in a woman if I did not like her.

Graaaack... I'm starting to sound like a goddam prude...

Michael

[Jonathan]

There is something really smutty about sex here in the USA that I still have not gotten used to since returning from Brazil.

The whole idea of a lap dance is weird to me. I'm not trying to be a snob. It really is weird.

Yeah, I suppose that if you're used to Brazilian ass-face-dancing, something as tame as a lap dance probably would seem kind of weird.

J

[Selene]

You could see that the dog liked it...he did not take his eyes off the performance even once!

[studiodekadent]

There is something really smutty about sex here in the USA that I still have not gotten used to since returning from Brazil.

If I may offer a tentative explanation, its probably because American culture's Puritanical/Protestant/Christian influence is very anti-sex.

Hence, sex tends to be actively seen as dirty, bad, depraved etc.

Look at most porn films. Porn trumpets "nasty, dirty forbidden, depraved" etc. In a way, a lot of porn accepts the underlying premise of the sex-haters... "sex is bad/filthy/dirty/animalistic/subhuman/nasty/brutish/short," but then says "we want it anyway so give us the filth."

I'm not sure about Brazil though, being its a Catholic country. Then again I have no real knowledge of Brazillian attitudes to sex.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dennis,

Brazil has a thing with butts.

As a Catholic country, the people there still prize virgin women for marriage. But as their attitude toward sex is playful, not smutty, they found a workaround for young women.

Using the back door allows the front door to stay sealed until it can be formally opened with a wedding ceremony.

The hard part to explain to Americans is that this hypocrisy goes on without any sense of shame or guilt.

It's playful.

Notice at the end of the dance in your video (both times), the girl jumped up and landed with a solid thump on the guys lap. That would hurt if the dude was excited. The performance was to goof on the guy (in good fun), not to do an odd form of sex.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

It's in the matter of understanding and appreciating different human contexts even if the one you live in ain't the one you're looking at. This is cultural anthropologism. Morally, common to thee and hee, is there any initiation of physical force reference these obvious adults? No? Rand: "It's disgusting!" Or, her cultural, not moral. Don't mix up these two categories. The initiation of force is objectively wrong. The this and that may or may not be culturally wrong. Rand's culturally wrong would be "It's disgusting!", not philosophically wrong, however. Rand never made such a distinction to my knowledge common to her philosophy. Everybody, almost, got the blowtorch. Disregard. That was her, be you. Do not make this ego and morality mistake!

--Brant

only 1/2 soused--my best stuff!

[Philip Coates]

Has Peikoff been asked on these podcasts about the Atlas Shrugged movie? Has he commented on it yet? After five decades of waiting for it, hoping for it, anticipating it, promising Rand he'd see it made, you'd think we would have seen it by now.

More interesting topic than rubbing up against someone on the subway.

[Reidy]

The story I heard is that he was the target of a breach-of-contract suit over the rights; part of the settlement was that he couldn't badmouth the movie publicly. One way to check the story out would be to ask him through the podcast site.

[Selene]

Has Peikoff been asked on these podcasts about the Atlas Shrugged movie? Has he commented on it yet? After five decades of waiting for it, hoping for it, anticipating it, promising Rand he'd see it made, you'd think we would have seen it by now.

More interesting topic than rubbing up against someone on the subway.

[Deleted]

[Philip Coates]

Adam,

I may have missed it, but did you answer my question first?

Phil

[john42t]

Look at most porn films. Porn trumpets "nasty, dirty forbidden, depraved" etc. In a way, a lot of porn accepts the underlying premise of the sex-haters... "sex is bad/filthy/dirty/animalistic/subhuman/nasty/brutish/short," but then says "we want it anyway so give us the filth."

That's one possibility.

Another theory I'm very fond of is that there are simply vastly different sexual preferences.

If there are people with a more promiscuous sexuality and people with a more quality-orientied sexuality then the latter might be naturally more "prude", the former naturally more "filthy".

So if the Zeitgeist was dominated by the latter group for some reason and the hippie revolution changed that, it would be logical for the porn industry to produce only filth.

Just an idea though, I'm not certain at all on this one.

[9thdoctor]

Notice at the end of the dance in your video (both times), the girl jumped up and landed with a solid thump on the guys lap. That would hurt if the dude was excited.

There must be injuries from doing what's in that video. There was a case in the US a few years ago where a stripper was sued for dropping her boobs on a guy's head. I wonder if they get people to sign waivers or something.

[George H. Smith]

Go to one of Peikoff's "topic" pages. Then click all the podcasts, listen to them at the same time, and enjoy the nightmare. It's like an O'ist zombie movie.

I recommend the "human relationships" page.

http://www.peikoff.c...-relationships/

Ghs

[Jonathan]

Go to one of Peikoff's "topic" pages. Then click all the podcasts, listen to them at the same time, and enjoy the nightmare. It's like an O'ist zombie movie.

As if it's not like an O'ist zombie movie to listen to Peikoff's podcasts one at a time?

J

[studiodekadent]

Another theory I'm very fond of is that there are simply vastly different sexual preferences.

If there are people with a more promiscuous sexuality and people with a more quality-orientied sexuality then the latter might be naturally more "prude", the former naturally more "filthy".

So if the Zeitgeist was dominated by the latter group for some reason and the hippie revolution changed that, it would be logical for the porn industry to produce only filth.

Just an idea though, I'm not certain at all on this one.

Interesting theory... but "quality-oriented sexuality" doesn't necessitate prudishness. Prudishness is a quantity-oriented sexuality with an ideal quantity of "very little at most."

The Puritans didn't believe in "sex for the worthy" but rather "sex only within the bonds of monogamous marriage for the purposes of reproduction."

Certainly, many people have higher levels of sexual desire for me... I'm borderline asexual.

Nothing wrong with needing to satisfy a need for sex.

All I'm saying is that a lot of our culture's typical language about sex seems to betray an implicit belief that "sex is bad." The only difference being "sex is bad so lets not have it" vs. "sex is bad but I'm horny so lets have it anyway."

[john42t]

Interesting theory... but "quality-oriented sexuality" doesn't necessitate prudishness. Prudishness is a quantity-oriented sexuality with an ideal quantity of "very little at most."

The Puritans didn't believe in "sex for the worthy" but rather "sex only within the bonds of monogamous marriage for the purposes of reproduction."

I agree with all of this, but I've one more thing to consider regarding Puritans.

People find each other's preferences something between alienating and repulsive (when they differ). That explains to some extent the bad reputation sex has.

Based on this premise it's easy to see how an ideology advocating prudishness would appeal to quality-sex-inclined people living in a quantity-sex-inclined society: You can still dream of your perfect wife that is going to be yours completely. If you are used to know women as sluts and are sexually frustrated yourself, that might increase the appeal for such an ideology.

Oh, I just realize that also implies another premise of mine that the late Catholic Zeitgeist the Reformation grew out of was sexually promiscuous - I don't know that for sure, but I bet it was, at least in comparison to the Puritan one.

All I'm saying is that a lot of our culture's typical language about sex seems to betray an implicit belief that "sex is bad." The only difference being "sex is bad so lets not have it" vs. "sex is bad but I'm horny so lets have it anyway."

Not in Europe. And even America has a mixed message on the topic.