Penn State

[Selene]

Sandusky's defense strategy appears to be, "Look at all the kids this man didn't rape. There are literally millions of them."

Have any of you heard, or read, any statements that Sandusky is a homosexual?

[caroljane]

Sandusky's defense strategy appears to be, "Look at all the kids this man didn't rape. There are literally millions of them."

Have any of you heard, or read, any statements that Sandusky is a homosexual?

Just veiled hints that he was "shy with girls" and totally focused on football in high school. His mother set him up with his future wife.

[john42t]

Why is the rape of a grown woman very nearly excusable in this society?

In most of the Western countries I think it's much better to be accused of crimes against humanity than rape. Quite clearly Serbian war criminals rank higher in public esteem than rapists, as even those cynical enough not to care about a woman's feelings would probably despise the primitive motive of that crime.

Here's where I believe you're coming from: There has been a shift (in Germany, I'm not sure about the US) away from believing every woman who cries rape. More and more people seriously consider that a woman might be, (shudder, could it be?) either outright lying, or, another typical case, after having enjoyed (maybe rough) sex for years she cries rape in hindsight because now he dumped her for another one. Now, all of a sudden, it was all psychological and physical abuse and she only didn't dare to protest. In public opinion, these things don't qualify as rape anymore (or at least the Zeitgeist is turning strongly).

Examples of that pattern are Julian Assange (Sweden) and Joerg Kachelmann (Germany).

But for the man who jumps out of the bushes the cries for a hanging are as loud as ever - so maybe you're not talking about that case?

[Brant Gaede]

I do think that raping children is an utterly abhorrent act and could only be done by the most sick and depraved person imaginable. What I want to know is, why is the rapist of an adult any less sick or depraved? Why is the rape of a grown woman very nearly excusable in this society?

Brant's answer:

It's an ethical question for rapists. I'm not a rapist.

--Brant

Bach:

The reason that child rape is worse is:

Primarily, adults have better awareness, judgment and a better ability to fight, use weapons to defend themselves and resist than does a child.

Secondly, I do not know which society you are claiming has a "...very nearly excusable in this society." If it is the US, perhaps you can flesh out your assertion.

Adam

No, no, no, Adam. That wasn't my answer to that statement. I was quoted properly by others. I didn't reply to that statement.

--Brant

[Selene]

It's an ethi

Here is an ethical question raised by the discussions of this topic: Is it more wrong to rape a child than to rape an adult?

It's an ethical question for rapists. I'm not a rapist.

--Brant

This is the answer that I am referring to Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Caridad,

Here's an ethical question similar to your ethical question.

Which is worse, to kill a child or kill an adult?

They both get killed and that's evil. For the rape in your question, they both get raped and that's evil.

To be more evil, you have to find a way to be more dead than dead or get more raped than raped. But dead is dead and raped is raped. It's kind, not degree.

I will give you this. Raping kids comes with a special kind of ick factor that raping adults lacks. But I don't think that's a moral ick. I think it's a rejection of such a sick and corrupted mind ick.

Michael

[caroljane]

If onlyJohn O'Hara were alive and writing today. No one could have rendered this sordid tragedy into art as he could have. He knew Pennsylvania, and the daily intersections of taught morality, self-interest and self-image -- college football too. Cynical lapsed Catholic, chip-on-the-shoulder shoulda-been Yalie, he could have looked on all this and unlike most of us, not looked away.

[Mikee]

I didn't get all of this story until reading Mark Steyn: http://www.ocregiste...uate-state.html

I didn't realize McQueary had witnessed the actual rape of a 10 year old. I still find this difficult to fathom. Why would someone hesitate for one second rescuing the boy and calling the police? How could a person live with themselves after doing nothing? Is that what it means to be egoless? Dead inside?

[Selene]

Well, there is even some great news on this sad day, Sandusky has been re-arrested!

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Jerry-Sandusky-Taken-Out-of-Home-in-Handcuffs-135184658.html?dr

Adam

[caroljane]

Good news indeed, for the children at risk from him while he was free.

Did you see his NYT interview? His aw-shucks boyish enthusiasm about being attracted to young people- he couldn't even remember to say it wasn't a sexual attraction, even though his lawyer was prompting him from the sidelines? He is either the dumbest, or most entitled-feeling, or the deepest-denying serial rapist ever exposed.

Of course, he was a great defensive coach. They must miss him on the practice field, if not in the showers.

[Selene]

Carol:

Well he better know how to play defense because he was not able to post the $250,000.00 bail and he has been taken to a Pennsylvania County Jail which is like going to a community meeting in Mogadishu Somalia.

Adam

[caroljane]

Carol:

Well he better know how to play defense because he was not able to post the $250,000.00 bail and he has been taken to a Pennsylvania County Jail which is like going to a community meeting in Mogadishu Somalia.

Adam

Apparently he wore a Penn State tracksuit to his arraignment.

[Selene]

Is that going to make him faster?

[caroljane]

Is that going to make him faster?

Weirdly, it seems to indicate the defense position. Sandusky's lawyer is saying that "it makes no sense" that fine upstanding men like Paterno, Curley and the other guy, would ever hear of a child rape and do nothing. Therefore McQueary must be lying about telling them he saw it. McQueary is the bad guy, and Penn State the victim. You could not make this stuff up.

[Selene]

Is that going to make him faster?

Weirdly, it seems to indicate the defense position. Sandusky's lawyer is saying that "it makes no sense" that fine upstanding men like Paterno, Curley and the other guy, would ever hear of a child rape and do nothing. Therefore McQueary must be lying about telling them he saw it. McQueary is the bad guy, and Penn State the victim. You could not make this stuff up.

McQueary could be lying. He could be "queer." Based on his statement, he is, basically a piece of dog feces.

[caroljane]

Is that going to make him faster?

Weirdly, it seems to indicate the defense position. Sandusky's lawyer is saying that "it makes no sense" that fine upstanding men like Paterno, Curley and the other guy, would ever hear of a child rape and do nothing. Therefore McQueary must be lying about telling them he saw it. McQueary is the bad guy, and Penn State the victim. You could not make this stuff up.

McQueary could be lying. He could be "queer." Based on his statement, he is, basically a piece of dog feces.

He could, and he is. But it is hard to believe that those now 10 boys are lying, or that McQ, Joe "I wish I had done more" Paterno, and many, many ore whose names we will never know, did not close their eyes to the ugly little squashed blob on their ighty, shiny football machine.

[caroljane]

Is that going to make him faster?

Weirdly, it seems to indicate the defense position. Sandusky's lawyer is saying that "it makes no sense" that fine upstanding men like Paterno, Curley and the other guy, would ever hear of a child rape and do nothing. Therefore McQueary must be lying about telling them he saw it. McQueary is the bad guy, and Penn State the victim. You could not make this stuff up.

McQueary could be lying. He could be "queer." Based on his statement, he is, basically a piece of dog feces.

He could, and he is. But it is hard to believe that those now 10 boys are lying, or that McQ, Joe "I wish I had done more" Paterno, and many, many more whose names we will never know, did not close their eyes to the ugly little squashed blob on their mighty, shiny football machine.

[Selene]

Carol:

I agree. My point is that I am not relying on McQueary, or his testimony. There is more than enough. The question for me is:

How far up does this pedophilic ring go? Secondly, is this clearly homosexual ring versus both gender pedophilic ring being protected by that agenda?

And, is there truth to the sub rosa statements that this pedophilic homosexual ring was "pimping these children" to the influential sections of the main line in Philadelphia and elsewhere?

Adam

my gut feeling is that the answers to all of the above will be a deafening yes!

[caroljane]

Another chillingly sad, desolate note.

The latest allegations include the detail that S assaulted a child in the basement of the Sandusky family home, while Sanduslky's wife was upstairs. The boy says he screamed for help, but nobody came.

Nobody came.

[Selene]

Another chillingly sad, desolate note.

The latest allegations include the detail that S assaulted a child in the basement of the Sandusky family home, while Sanduslky's wife was upstairs. The boy says he screamed for help, but nobody came.

Nobody came.

Yep. I saw that. His attorney said to him, upon information and belief, "I told you this would happen!" when he met him in Court yesterday. Remember, this attorney appears to have a "unique" background with that young client of his that he married.

Additionally, Sandusky, upon information and belief, smiled when his attorney said that yesterday.

Curiouser and curiouser as Alice looked through the looking glass.

Adam

[sbeaulieu]

Looks like he posted bail. His wife cut a $50K check, too. I wonder when all the dust settles if she's gonna face the fire, too, since this happened at their abode. I haven't really heard anything on that side of the fence. Time will tell.

~ Shane

[caroljane]

Temporarily balked from seeking out new victims, the delightful Sandusky is reduced to tormenting and manipulating those he has already abused.

He and his able attorney made sure they were forced to face the horror of reliving the worst times of their lives in public, right up to the moment when Sandusky said, "No, I'll waive the preliminary hearing, you can go home.

"For now.

"You can spend months and months more dreading the moment you'll have to testify. We're going to fight you to the death - if you thought you suffered before, wait till cross-examination -- maybe you'll wish you were dead.

"See, I'm still in charge. People just don't get it."

The sickest thing is, of course he will take a plea. Obviously they are just not offering a plea he thinks he can "live with." Whatever they offer, it will be better than the sentence he will get, if he does indeed force those young men to relive what he did to them.

His interesting risktaking lawyer must know that.

as to what Jerry can live with, at least his life as we have known it, is over.

[Selene]

Seems like Joe Paterno's health has taken a turn for the worse:

“Over the last few days Joe Paterno has experienced further health complications,” family spokesman Dan McGinn said in a brief statement Saturday to The Associated Press. “His doctors have now characterized his status as serious.

“His family will have no comment on the situation and asks that their privacy be respected during this difficult time,” he said.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2012/01/21/former-penn-state-coach-joe-paterno-reportedly-near-death/

[Selene]

Fired Penn State Coach Joe Paterno Dead at 85

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) — Joe Paterno, the longtime Penn State coach who won more games than anyone in major college football but was fired amid a child sex abuse scandal that scarred his reputation for winning with integrity, died Sunday. He was 85.

His family released a statement Sunday morning to announce his death: "His loss leaves a void in our lives that will never be filled."

"He died as he lived," the statement said. "He fought hard until the end, stayed positive, thought only of others and constantly reminded everyone of how blessed his life had been. His ambitions were far reaching, but he never believed he had to leave this Happy Valley to achieve them. He was a man devoted to his family, his university, his players and his community."

Paterno built his program on the credo "Success with Honor," and he found both. The man known as "JoePa" won 409 games and took the Nittany Lions to 37 bowl games and two national championships. More than 250 of the players he coached went on to the NFL.

"He will go down as the greatest football coach in the history of the game," Ohio State coach Urban Meyer said after his former team, the Florida Gators, beat Penn State 37-24 in the 2011 Outback Bowl.

Paterno's son Scott said on Nov. 18 that his father was being treated for lung cancer. The cancer was diagnosed during a follow-up visit for a bronchial illness. A few weeks after that revelation, Paterno also broke his pelvis after a fall but did not need surgery.

Paterno had been in the hospital since Jan. 13 for observation for what his family had called minor complications from his cancer treatments. Not long before that, he conducted his only interview since losing his job, with The Washington Post. Paterno was described as frail then, speaking mostly in a whisper and wearing a wig. The second half of the two-day interview was conducted at his bedside.

"As the last 61 years have shown, Joe made an incredible impact," said the statement from the family. "That impact has been felt and appreciated by our family in the form of thousands of letters and well wishes along with countless acts of kindness from people whose lives he touched. It is evident also in the thousands of successful student athletes who have gone on to multiply that impact as they spread out across the country."

The final days of Paterno's Penn State career were easily the toughest in his 61 years with the university and 46 seasons as head football coach.

It was because Paterno was a such a sainted figure — more memorable than any of his players and one of the best-known coaches in all of sports — that his downfall was so startling. During one breathtaking week in early November, Paterno was engulfed by a scandal and forced from his job, because he failed to go to the police in 2002 when told a young boy was molested inside the football complex.

"I didn't know which way to go ... and rather than get in there and make a mistake," he said in the Post interview.

Jerry Sandusky, the former defensive coordinator expected to succeed Paterno before retiring in 1999, was charged with sexually assaulting 10 boys over 15 years. Two university officials stepped down after they were charged with perjury following a grand jury investigation of Sandusky. But attention quickly focused on an alleged rape that took place in a shower in the football building, witnessed by Mike McQueary, a graduate assistant at the time.

McQueary testified that he had seen Sandusky attacking the child and that he had told Paterno, who waited a day before alerting school authorities. Police were never called and the state's top cop later said Paterno failed to execute his moral responsibility by not contacting police.

"You know, (McQueary) didn't want to get specific," Paterno said in the Post interview. "And to be frank with you I don't know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it."

On the morning of Nov. 9, Paterno said he would retire following the 2011 season. He also said he was "absolutely devastated" by the abuse case.

"This is a tragedy," the coach said. "It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

But the university trustees faced a crisis, and in an emergency meeting that night, they fired Paterno, effective immediately. Graham Spanier, one of the longest-serving university presidents in the nation, also was dismissed.

According to Lanny Davis, an attorney retained by the trustees as an adviser, board vice chairman John Surma regretted having to tell Paterno the decision over the phone.

The university handed the football team to one of Paterno's assistants, Tom Bradley, who said Paterno "will go down in history as one of the greatest men, who maybe most of you know as a great football coach."

Thick, smoky-lens glasses, rolled up khakis, jet-black sneakers, blue windbreaker — Paterno was easy to spot on the sidelines. His teams were just as easy to spot on the field; their white helmets and classic blue and white uniforms had the same old-school look as the coach.

Paterno believed success was not measured entirely on the field. From his idealistic early days, he had implemented what he called a "grand experiment" — to graduate more players while maintaining success on the field.

He was a frequent speaker on ethics in sports, a conscience for a world often infiltrated by scandal and shady characters.

His teams consistently ranked among the best in the Big Ten for graduating players. As of 2011, it had 49 academic All-Americans, the third-highest among schools in the Football Bowl Subdivision. All but two played under Paterno.

"He teaches us about really just growing up and being a man," former linebacker Paul Posluszny, now with the NFL's Jacksonville Jaguars, once said. "Besides the football, he's preparing us to be good men in life."

Paterno certainly had detractors, as well. One former Penn State professor called his high-minded words on academics a farce. He was criticized for making broad critiques about the wrongs in college football without providing specifics. A former administrator said his players often got special treatment compared to non-athletes. His coaching style often was considered too conservative. Some thought he held on to his job too long. There was a push to move him out in 2004 but it failed.

But the critics were in the minority, and his program was never cited for major NCAA violations. However, the child sexual abuse scandal prompted separate investigations by the U.S. Department of Education and the NCAA into the school's handling.

Paterno played quarterback and cornerback for Brown University and set a defensive record with 14 career interceptions, a distinction he boasted about to his teams all the way into his 80s. He graduated in 1950 with plans to go to law school. He said his father hoped he would someday be president.

When he was 23, a former coach at Brown was moving to Penn State to become the head coach and persuaded Paterno to come with him as an assistant.

"I had no intention to coach when I got out of Brown," Paterno said in 2007 at Beaver Stadium in an interview before being inducted into the Hall of Fame. "Come to this hick town? From Brooklyn?"

In 1963, he was offered a job by the late Al Davis — $18,000, triple his salary at Penn State, plus a car to become general manager and coach of the AFL's Oakland Raiders. He said no. Rip Engle retired as Penn State head coach three years later, and Paterno took over.

At the time, the Lions were considered "Eastern football" — inferior — and Paterno courted newspaper coverage to raise the team's profile. In 1967, PSU began a 30-0-1 streak.

But Penn State couldn't get to the top of the polls. The Lions finished second in 1968 and 1969 despite perfect records. They went 12-0 in 1973 and finished fifth. Texas edged them in 1969 after President Richard Nixon, impressed with the Longhorns' bowl performance, declared them No. 1.

"I'd like to know," Paterno said later, "how could the president know so little about Watergate in 1973, and so much about college football in 1969?"

A national title finally came in 1982, in a 27-23 win over Georgia at the Sugar Bowl. Penn State won another in 1986 after the Lions picked off Vinny Testaverde five times and beat Miami 14-10 in the Fiesta Bowl.

They have made several title runs since then, including a 2005 run to the Orange Bowl and an 11-1 campaign in 2008 that earned them a berth in the Rose Bowl, where they lost 37-23 to Southern California.

In his later years, physical ailments wore the old coach down. Paterno was run over on the sideline during a game at Wisconsin in November 2006 and underwent knee surgery. He hurt his hip in 2008 demonstrating an onside kick.

An intestinal illness and a bad reaction to antibiotics prescribed for dental work slowed him for most of the 2010 season. Paterno began scaling back his speaking engagements that year, ending his summer caravan of speeches to alumni across the state.

Then a receiver bowled over Paterno at practice in August, sending him to the hospital with shoulder and pelvis injuries and consigning him to coach much of the season from the press box.

"The fact that we've won a lot of games is that the good Lord kept me healthy, not because I'm better than anybody else," Paterno said two days before he won his 409th game and passed Eddie Robinson of Grambling State for the most in Division I. "It's because I've been around a lot longer than anybody else."

Paterno could be conservative on the field, especially in big games, relying on the tried-and-true formula of defense, the running game and field position.

"They've been playing great defense for 45 years," Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz said in November.

Paterno and his wife, Sue, raised five children in State College. Anybody could telephone him at his modest ranch home — the same one he appeared in front of on the night he was fired — by looking up "Paterno, Joseph V." in the phone book.

He walked to home games and was greeted and wished good luck by fans on the street. Former players paraded through his living room for the chance to say hello. But for the most part, he stayed out of the spotlight.

Paterno did have a knack for joke. He referred to Twitter, the social media, as "Twittle-do, Twittle-dee."

He also could be abrasive and stubborn, and had his share of run-ins with his bosses or administrators. And as his legend grew, so did the attention to his on-field decisions, and the questions about when he would retire.

Calls for his retirement reached a crescendo in 2004. The next year, Penn State went 11-1 and won the Big Ten. In the Orange Bowl, PSU beat Florida State, whose coach, Bobby Bowden, left the Seminoles after the 2009 season after 34 years and 389 wins.

Like many others, he was outlasted by "JoePa."

[Dennis Hardin]

The man seems to have dedicated himself to helping young men build productive, purposeful, responsible lives. So why in God’s name would he look the other way when he discovered that a walking pile of dung named Jerry Sandusky was destroying young boys?

He pissed on his own legacy. Unbelievable.