caroljane

Penn State

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I never heard of Joe Pantero before yesterday. Now that name will be forever linked in my mind with another group I had not read about until recently: the German chaplains who accompanied the Sonderkommando troops.

This will be his legacy. In the minds of millions who know him only as the boss and mentor of Sandusky, "Joe Pa" will be known as the man who could have saved Sandusky's future victims from being raped, but fulfilled the letter of the law and did not.

The echoes of his declining years should be the terrified screams of children pleading for rescue. But I suppose he will only hear the distant cheers of adoring crowds.

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Carol:

Precisely. Well put.

My stomach turns thinking about this vicious travesty being continued for one minute longer than when this "graduate assistant" saw the boy being sodomized in the shower.

He had two (2) simple choices. The first was to immediately attack Sandusky and smash his head into the shower wall while he delivered his knee to the rapists groin over and over.

If he was too much of a coward to act, then his only other option was to immediately go to the first phone with a dial tone and call 911. End of story.

My aunt was being flashed on the subway by a pervert when she was 12 or 13 on her way to Julliard where she had a music scholarship. This was I believe in the 1930's. Thankfully, she told my grandmother, her mother, about it.

My grandmother told her to indicate the man with a motion to her hair as they rode on the subway the next day. My grandmother carried a walking cane with a large brass head.

When the police pulled her off the piece of human debris, his screams were still ringing in the ears of the riders in the next cars. Needless to say, he had nothing left to expose to any girl at any point in the future.

Simple solutions to complex problems work quite well.

I can not condone Paterno's conduct. This is a zero tolerance area for me.

Adam

sad, sad day

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So far it appears that not one person in that whole organization evinced the moral sense of a gnat. When they couldn't avoid knowing about the crimes the guy was committing, they just told him to go and commit them somewhere else.

But the police did finally arrest him -- somebody, sometime must have called them. Who, I wonder?

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One of the mother's noticed that her son was wet when he came home from one of the events.

She inquired why he was wet and he said that he took a shower with Mr. Sandusky. The mom approached the piece of human flotsam and directed him that it was not proper for her son to take a shower with him. Sandusky basically told her that he would do what he wanted to do.

The entire indictment is on line and it is really ugly what transpired.

Adam

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Carol:

http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF

Here is the indictment, it is not easy to read. That a person could do this to a child is beyond me.

Adam

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Carol:

http://www.freep.com...C4181508116.PDF

Here is the indictment, it is not easy to read. That a person could do this to a child is beyond me.

Adam

Thanks for the link, but I don't think I can read it. Not just now anyway.

Paterno's conduct in 2002 seems to me more and more contemptible and hypocritcal. As the most powerful and influential person at the university, he passed the buck to his nominal boss who he must have known would start a coverup. He covered himself legally and headed off to sign autographs. By the next game day he had probably forgotten all about that 10 year old boy.

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http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201111/mothers-alleged-sandusky-victims-speak-out
The story told by the mother of "Victim Six" is every bit as haunting, if not more so. After Sandusky gave her son a tour of the Penn State football locker room in 1998, the boy came home and told her, "If you're wondering why my hair is wet, we took a shower together."
He then ran to his room.
The boy later told his mom there was another child in the shower with him and the coach. That boy was 11.

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I can understand the support for JP though. He was a face of integrity for the high-profit meat machine that is the NCAA. He was encouraged to keep "coaching" long past his sell-buy date, so that he could break more records by sheer attritiion. Note that the indictments weren't announced until he had passed another milestone. I bet there were strenuous efforts to hold them off until the end of the football season (I suppose the pesky press ruined that one).

God help us all.

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Carol:

Precisely. Well put.

My stomach turns thinking about this vicious travesty being continued for one minute longer than when this "graduate assistant" saw the boy being sodomized in the shower.

Adam

sad, sad day

Mike: Dad, Dad! I just saw Coach Sandusky in the shower doing something real bad to a kid!

Dad: Oh, my God. Are you sure, son?

Mike: Yes.

Dad: Oh, my God. There's a big game coming up...look, you better tell Joe Pa about this. He'll know what to do.

Edited by daunce lynam

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Maureen Dowd is an excellent writer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/opinion/dowd-personal-foul-at-penn.html?_r=1&ref=maureendowd

I would start constructing another level of Hades below the lowest level for the entire administration at Penn State who had any knowledge of this.

Additionally, before execution, they will get the opportunity to be part of that special scene from Pulp Fiction where the we get to "go medieval on them."

Adam

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Paterno has always been an icon of mine in terms of the values that he instilled in his program at Penn State, but, sadly, his immoral behavior when it counted has soiled his own standards of integrity.

If he has the courage, he should resign and make a powerful statement on integrity and civil morality. He is more than capable of making this disaster into an important life lesson for all citizens.

Adam

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Paterno has always been an icon of mine in terms of the values that he instilled in his program at Penn State, but, sadly, his immoral behavior when it counted has soiled his own standards of integrity.

If he has the courage, he should resign and make a powerful statement on integrity and civil morality. He is more than capable of making this disaster into an important life lesson for all citizens.

Adam

You're assuming he has a moral leg left to stand on. I'll be amazed if he lasts to the weekend. Those fools are on a Russian sleigh ride and don't even know it. Poor Joe is standing on the rear ready to be kicked off. The next football game could be a slaughterfest. The mental energy needed to play and coach at that level is tremendous and this is a huge distraction. How would you like to be perceived as part of a pedophile organization in this most masculine and militaristic of sports?

--Brant

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Paterno has always been an icon of mine in terms of the values that he instilled in his program at Penn State, but, sadly, his immoral behavior when it counted has soiled his own standards of integrity.

If he has the courage, he should resign and make a powerful statement on integrity and civil morality. He is more than capable of making this disaster into an important life lesson for all citizens.

Adam

You're assuming he has a moral leg left to stand on. I'll be amazed if he lasts to the weekend. Those fools are on a Russian sleigh ride and don't even know it. Poor Joe is standing on the rear ready to be kicked off. The next football game could be a slaughterfest. The mental energy needed to play and coach at that level is tremendous and this is a huge distraction. How would you like to be perceived as part of a pedophile organization in this most masculine and militaristic of sports?

--Brant

Precisely.

That's why I said that he should resign before Saturday which is the last home game of the season. If he sets that example, he can reclaim some of his stature by taking one for the team.

The question of whether to suit up on Saturday, or refuse to suit up, would be what I would consider if I were part of that team.

I played in an unlimited weight money league for five (5) years in NY City. I know how brutal and demanding the game is and I also believe that an example needs to be set.

Therefore, I would go to the coach Paterno, hopefully with the support of the team, and demand that he resign before Saturday's last home game, or, I (we) would not suit up and play.

A clear statement has to be publicly made.

Adam

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Paterno has always been an icon of mine in terms of the values that he instilled in his program at Penn State, but, sadly, his immoral behavior when it counted has soiled his own standards of integrity.

If he has the courage, he should resign and make a powerful statement on integrity and civil morality. He is more than capable of making this disaster into an important life lesson for all citizens.

Adam

You're assuming he has a moral leg left to stand on. I'll be amazed if he lasts to the weekend. Those fools are on a Russian sleigh ride and don't even know it. Poor Joe is standing on the rear ready to be kicked off. The next football game could be a slaughterfest. The mental energy needed to play and coach at that level is tremendous and this is a huge distraction. How would you like to be perceived as part of a pedophile organization in this most masculine and militaristic of sports?

--Brant

Precisely.

That's why I said that he should resign before Saturday which is the last home game of the season. If he sets that example, he can reclaim some of his stature by taking one for the team.

The question of whether to suit up on Saturday, or refuse to suit up, would be what I would consider if I were part of that team.

I played in an unlimited weight money league for five (5) years in NY City. I know how brutal and demanding the game is and I also believe that an example needs to be set.

Therefore, I would go to the coach Paterno, hopefully with the support of the team, and demand that he resign before Saturday's last home game, or, I (we) would not suit up and play.

A clear statement has to be publicly made.

Adam

I don't see the team or its members doing much of anything so fast. There must be an athletic director. If he's not implicated in any of this it's his job to do what has to be done immediately--like in the next day or so. If he is implicated they should both jump off this ship (sleigh) at the same time.

--Brant

I see a leave of absence coming up

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Paterno has always been an icon of mine in terms of the values that he instilled in his program at Penn State, but, sadly, his immoral behavior when it counted has soiled his own standards of integrity.

If he has the courage, he should resign and make a powerful statement on integrity and civil morality. He is more than capable of making this disaster into an important life lesson for all citizens.

Adam

You're assuming he has a moral leg left to stand on. I'll be amazed if he lasts to the weekend. Those fools are on a Russian sleigh ride and don't even know it. Poor Joe is standing on the rear ready to be kicked off. The next football game could be a slaughterfest. The mental energy needed to play and coach at that level is tremendous and this is a huge distraction. How would you like to be perceived as part of a pedophile organization in this most masculine and militaristic of sports?

--Brant

Precisely.

That's why I said that he should resign before Saturday which is the last home game of the season. If he sets that example, he can reclaim some of his stature by taking one for the team.

The question of whether to suit up on Saturday, or refuse to suit up, would be what I would consider if I were part of that team.

I played in an unlimited weight money league for five (5) years in NY City. I know how brutal and demanding the game is and I also believe that an example needs to be set.

Therefore, I would go to the coach Paterno, hopefully with the support of the team, and demand that he resign before Saturday's last home game, or, I (we) would not suit up and play.

A clear statement has to be publicly made.

Adam

I don't see the team or its members doing much of anything so fast. There must be an athletic director. If he's not implicated in any of this it's his job to do what has to be done immediately--like in the next day or so. If he is implicated they should both jump off this ship (sleigh) at the same time.

--Brant

I see a leave of absence coming up

Brant:

Possibly, but I would hope to see an action that is clear, courageous and a challenge to the moral corruption at that University.

But I still believe in the tooth fairy, so your approach will probably win out.

Adam

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Adam, you & Brant are right on in all your comments. I think JP and everybody who passed the buck in 2002 should be fired for bad moral character, including Mike and his father wherever he works, but that's just me.

Somewhere in the dorms at Penn there's a desperately angry boy wondering why, why ' can't people get that the football is separate from all that other sick stuff and the politics, and just let him concentrate on the game?

And then he starts to think about why.

Part of me empathizes with those players and their families, but mostly I'm glad for them. They are getting more real education from this than they were ever likely to have been offered at dear old Penn.

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As I understand it, Paterno is claiming that he wasn't made aware of the details and the seriousness of the allegations of what happened. Is that correct?

Has he and/or the university released to the press any details and documentation of what actions they took? Have they explained exactly what they were told, and when, and by whom? Have they revealed any documents from the time of the initial allegations which specify what Paterno was told and what he reported to the university authorities?

If not -- if they have no such documentation or are unwilling to release them publicly -- then I think that Paterno and several others at the university should step down immediately, and not at the end of the football season.

J

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Whatever finally comes out in the wash Paterno is finished. How innocent or guilty he really is is irrelevant to his status as the head coach--he doesn't really coach, does he?--and should be. The football program at Penn State is going to collapse--and should. You can't effectively coach, whoever you are--and recruit into that rotten mess.

--Brant

Correct Brant.

It is being announced that Paterno will retire at the end of this season. I believe that was the plan before this disaster was revealed. However, this hits at such a deep moral level that I think Joe would be wise to retire before Saturday and, for the sake of the current team, defuse this issue.

Adam

How super to see someone who knows his defuse from his diffuse!

In admiration,

Philippa

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Update on Paterno and Penn State:

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. — Joe Paterno, who has the most victories of any coach in major college football history, was fired by Penn State on Wednesday night in the wake of a sexual abuse scandal involving a prominent former assistant coach and the university’s failure to act to halt further harm. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/sports/ncaafootball/-joe-paterno-and-graham-spanier-out-at-penn-state.html?hp

Another story has emerged in relation to this long running nightmare. I remember hearing about it and I originally thought that this DA was probably meeting someone for sex, or drugs, and it went bad.

In yesterday's NY Times, this story appeared because his family had him declared legally dead this summer:

One of the questions surrounding the sex-abuse case against Jerry Sandusky is why a former district attorney chose not to prosecute the then-
Penn State
assistant coach in 1998 after reports surfaced that he had inappropriate interactions with a boy.
Gricar went missing in April 2005. The murky circumstances surrounding his disappearance — an abandoned car, a laptop recovered months later in a river without a hard drive, his body was never found — have spawned Web sites, television programs and conspiracy theories. More than six years later, the police still receive tips and reports of sightings. The police in central Pennsylvania continue to investigate even though Gricar’s daughter, Lara, successfully petitioned in July to have her father declared legally dead so the family could find some closure and begin dividing his estate.
De Boef said Gricar did not share any information with him about
the case in 1998, which involved Sandusky allegedly showering with an 11-year-old boy. Gricar, he said, reviewed the police reports in private including, presumably, notes or recordings of two conversations that the police heard between Sandusky and the boy’s mother.
But Gricar had a reputation for thoroughness, and if he thought he had enough to charge Sandusky, he would have, De Boef and other lawyers said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html?_r=1

This may be the most stunning story, not only of this year, but of the last decade because it touches the most basic mores of society, the protection of the young.

I am also noticing the complete absence of the mention of any "fathers" of any of the victims.

Another, fact that I discovered this morning is that Sandusky has no natural children. He has six (6) adopted children, five (5) of which are boys.

To be continued...

Adam

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This is from the movie Sleepers which is a brilliant film.

I would love to see Sandusky at the end of these weapons.

http://youtu.be/CtCv_LlaCnE

http://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CtCv_LlaCnE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Protection of a child is the absolute obligation of every citizen. There can be some gray areas of behavior, but as a race we are obligated to act to protect a child in danger. If Objectivism is at odds with this, so be it.

There is a phrase in law, malum in se:

Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as sinful or inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited.

For example, most human beings feel that murder, rape, and theft is wrong, regardless of whether a law governs such conduct or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se.

In contrast, consider driving laws. In the U.S., people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. Violation of these rules is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by law, as set forth by the lawmakers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the act is prohibited by the law of the state.

This concept was used to develop the various common law offences.[1]

Another way to describe the underlying conceptual difference between "malum in se" and "malum prohibitum" is "iussum quia iustum" and "iustum quia iussum," namely something that is commanded (iussum) because it is just (iustum) and something that is just (iustum) because it is commanded (iussum).

References

  1. Canadian Law Dictionary, John A. Yogis, Q.C., Barrons: 2003

Adam

troubled that students at a tax supported state university are rioting tonight to protest the firing of a man who protected a pedophile

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troubled that students at a tax supported state university are rioting tonight to protest the firing of a man who protected a pedophile

Youth that age didn't stop going to Michael Jackson concerts.

--Brant

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troubled that students at a tax supported state university are rioting tonight to protest the firing of a man who protected a pedophile

Youth that age didn't stop going to Michael Jackson concerts.

--Brant

Brant:

Never liked Michael Jackson either. It seems that I have a deep seated hatred of pedophiles, even if they're famous.

Adam

not looking to be cured of this particular hatred

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troubled that students at a tax supported state university are rioting tonight to protest the firing of a man who protected a pedophile

Youth that age didn't stop going to Michael Jackson concerts.

--Brant

Brant:

Never liked Michael Jackson either. It seems that I have a deep seated hatred of pedophiles, even if they're famous.

Adam

not looking to be cured of this particular hatred

My implicit point is when most kids get to college their brains are an undeveloped intellectual and moral mess. College, where most of them don't belong anyway, makes this worse by way of a continuing non or anti-education in the Liberal Arts.

--Brant

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