Serious Students vs. Degenerate Objectivists

[Selene]

She had a beautiful pair of eyes!

[9thdoctor]

She had a beautiful pair of eyes!

Really? I didn’t notice. I’ll have to watch it again when I get a chance.

[Philip Coates]

>[You're on] my "ignore" list. [brant]

Thank God!....Now if I could just get some of your "brain-brothers" to follow suit?

[Philip Coates]

Michael,

Thanks for post #142. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Lots of really important issues there.

I particularly like the relationship between Beliefs, Potential, Action, and Results. I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms.

> I am not really expecting you to read this. I'll give it 50/50 odds.

Not only did I read it ...twice...but I'm still mulling over all of this.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Not only did I read it ...twice...but I'm still mulling over all of this.

Phil,

This made my day.

Good luck on where you take it. Or not take it.

It's all good.

Michael

[Jonathan]

Nowadays, when I go on Oist websites or boards, I find person after person who expresses disagreement on point Y when Oism never advocated Y

Would you please provide direct quotes from posts here on OL to support your claim. We'll examine those posts together in detail then. TIA.

Still not a single example from Phil. I saw one recently on OO, and you know what happened? Right away there were other posters pointing out the guy’s error. C'mon Phil, name one...

Nihilist Dipshit, you incredible ass:

If you're too dumb or lazy to be aware of this, I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Prosecuting Attorney: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must conclude that Mr. Holloway is guilty of murder."

Attorney for the Defense: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution has offered no proof to support the accusations against Mr. Holloway."

Prosecuting Attorney: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm not going to do the defense's homework for him! What a nihilist dipshit! I rest my case!"

[Philip Coates]

Hey brainless dipshit's assistant,

your fallacy is viewing this forum as analogous to a court of law.

[Jonathan]

To admit to the honest, shameful, embarrassing truth, I have a certain kind of what's-the-use depression+cynicism+hopelessness that tells me no one will read it, appreciate it, and I'll end up feeling even worse.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Are you saying that your primary concern is that, prior to trying to accomplish something, you're worried that no one will appreciate your genius? Rather than first putting in the work and discovering whether or not the assumption of your brilliance is warranted, you just assume that you're going to be great at something you've never done, first time at bat? You believe that you'd be deserving of accolades, but the rest of the population of the world have demonstrated themselves to be petty and resentful of your genius, and, therefore, if they don't read your work and appreciate it, it must be because everyone is a nasty bastard, and it couldn't possibly be because you're a beginner who has yet to master a craft?

Just asking.

When Rand started feeling those things late in life and couldn't write another novel, unlike me she had already accomplished a life's work. In my case on the other hand, I'm basically still a nobody who has accomplished *nothing* of importance intellectually, and I'm having trouble finding motivation. When I sit down to write I feel a huge lack of energy.

Do you have volition? Isn't that a pretty big thing in Objectivism? Well, then, use your volition and choose to get off your ass and do something.

I see that MSK linked to a Tony Robbins clip. I think that in certain cases, Tony Robbins-ish motivational materials and exercises can be effective, but, from what I've seen personally, they're much more likely to end up being yet another distraction on which to waste time avoiding work. I've seen a lot of people investing major amounts of time on the motivational stuff, and still never getting around to doing any work. It's amazing how much energy certain people can expend in trying to find the energy to do something which takes much less energy than finding the energy to do it.

I think that if you're that reluctant to do the work, then you really don't enjoy it or have a serious interest in it, and you should probably do something else. Something that you enjoy. Schoolmarming, for example. It's not prestigious, but you seem to really love it.

J

[sjw]

So Phil bares part of his soul, does his honest best, and gets viciously savaged for it. Why?

Shayne

[Jonathan]

I didn't viciously savage Phil, but offered him some "tough love."

J

[Brant Gaede]

I didn't viciously savage Phil, but offered him some "tough love."

J

Oh, my mistake. That post of yours was way too rough on him, especially the first part.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

Hey, as I said, I was just asking. If Phil didn't mean his comment the way that I took it, he can say so easily enough.

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... I've seen a lot of people investing major amounts of time on the motivational stuff, and still never getting around to doing any work. It's amazing how much energy certain people can expend in trying to find the energy to do something which takes much less energy than finding the energy to do it.

Jonathan,

I guarantee you that the people you saw were "investing major amounts of time" on not doing their projects way before they tried motivational materials.

For many people who do find value in it and get results from it, though, I see no reason to belittle them. They exist.

We each have our own paths to productivity. If a person has a major hang-up, simply telling him to grow up and get busy won't work. In several cases I personally know of, motivational stuff helped a lot.

To put it another way, you find it amazing that motivational stuff doesn't work and just eats up time with the people you have seen. But I can turn that around and ask if you are equally amazed at the results they have achieved (as in "lack of") from any stern advice you have given them.

The way I see it, the problem with other people is other people.

The truth is, whatever manner you can get through to them--whatever works--is the best way, whether motivational or tough love. It will not be the same for everyone. And you will not get through to everyone.

(btw - I have some serious criticisms of Tony Robbins, but not on the motivation spiral process. That sucker rocks.)

Michael

[Roger Bissell]

... I've seen a lot of people investing major amounts of time on the motivational stuff, and still never getting around to doing any work. It's amazing how much energy certain people can expend in trying to find the energy to do something which takes much less energy than finding the energy to do it.

Jonathan,

I guarantee you that the people you saw were "investing major amounts of time" on not doing their projects way before they tried motivational materials.

For many people who do find value in it and get results from it, though, I see no reason to belittle them. They exist.

We each have our own paths to productivity. If a person has a major hang-up, simply telling him to grow up and get busy won't work. In several cases I personally know of, motivational stuff helped a lot.

To put it another way, you find it amazing that motivational stuff doesn't work and just eats up time with the people you have seen. But I can turn that around and ask if you are equally amazed at the results they have achieved (as in "lack of") from any stern advice you have given them.

The way I see it, the problem with other people is other people.

The truth is, whatever manner you can get through to them--whatever works--is the best way, whether motivational or tough love. It will not be the same for everyone. And you will not get through to everyone.

(btw - I have some serious criticisms of Tony Robbins, but not on the motivation spiral process. That sucker rocks.)

Michael

I'm confused as to whether Jonathan was (1) "viciously savaging" Phil (Shayne's term), (2) giving Phil "tough love" (Jonathan's term), or (3) giving Phil "advice" (your term). Seems like there is a rather HUGE FUCKING GULF between the meaning of these terms.

I'd also like to know why you shut down the thread Shayne started, in criticism of George. Your explanation doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The reason I mention it here is that there seems to be a HUGE FUCKING DOUBLE-STANDARD as to who gets protected by you, and who doesn't.

Want to explain?

REB

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Want to explain?

Roger,

No.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... giving Phil "advice" (your term).

Roger,

This is inaccurate. I was not referring to Phil in my passage. I was referring to the people Jonathan said he knew who had wasted their time on motivational material with no results.

I suggest you read more carefully before choosing scorched earth profanity, but it's your choice.

Michael

[Jonathan]

Jonathan,

I guarantee you that the people you saw were "investing major amounts of time" on not doing their projects way before they tried motivational materials.

For many people who do find value in it and get results from it, though, I see no reason to belittle them. They exist.

I'm not belittling anyone. As I said, I think that in certain cases, the motivational stuff can be effective. I've seen a few such cases myself. It's just that they're rare.

We each have our own paths to productivity. If a person has a major hang-up, simply telling him to grow up and get busy won't work. In several cases I personally know of, motivational stuff helped a lot.

To put it another way, you find it amazing that motivational stuff doesn't work and just eats up time with the people you have seen. But I can turn that around and ask if you are equally amazed at the results they have achieved (as in "lack of") from any advice you have given them.

I wouldn't say that I've been "amazed" at the results of telling people to get off their asses and to get busy. It's more like a sense of satisfaction and confirmation. I've had several artist friends, for example, who complained a lot about not being motivated, and whenever I've suggested to them that they get off their asses, and take the simple first step of just putting themselves in motion -- like squirting some paint on a palette -- it's quite satisfying to see them do so, and to see them suddenly realizing that they're loving what they're doing and not wanting to stop. They end up painting for hours on end. Rather than being intimidated and discouraged by the idea of facing a complex project, and being overwhelmed by thinking of everything involved in it, they start by focusing on just one enjoyable little aspect of the task and then discover that their minds are racing with ideas and enthusiasm. "Get off your ass, get busy" can work very well.

The way I see it, the problem with other people is other people.

The truth is, whatever manner you can get through to them--whatever works--is the best way, whether motivational or tough love. It will not be the same for everyone. And you will not get through to everyone.

I understand. To some people, motivational materials will end up being nothing but coddling or a distraction. To some people, tough love will be taken as a vicious attack.

J

[Brant Gaede]

Jonathan,

I guarantee you that the people you saw were "investing major amounts of time" on not doing their projects way before they tried motivational materials.

For many people who do find value in it and get results from it, though, I see no reason to belittle them. They exist.

I'm not belittling anyone. As I said, I think that in certain cases, the motivational stuff can be effective. I've seen a few such cases myself. It's just that they're rare.

We each have our own paths to productivity. If a person has a major hang-up, simply telling him to grow up and get busy won't work. In several cases I personally know of, motivational stuff helped a lot.

To put it another way, you find it amazing that motivational stuff doesn't work and just eats up time with the people you have seen. But I can turn that around and ask if you are equally amazed at the results they have achieved (as in "lack of") from any advice you have given them.

I wouldn't say that I've been "amazed" at the results of telling people to get off their asses and to get busy. It's more like a sense of satisfaction and confirmation. I've had several artist friends, for example, who complained a lot about not being motivated, and whenever I've suggested to them that they get off their asses, and take the simple first step of just putting themselves in motion -- like squirting some paint on a palette -- it's quite satisfying to see them do so, and to see them suddenly realizing that they're loving what they're doing and not wanting to stop. They end up painting for hours on end. Rather than being intimidated and discouraged by the idea of facing a complex project, and being overwhelmed by thinking of everything involved in it, they start by focusing on just one enjoyable little aspect of the task and then discover that their minds are racing with ideas and enthusiasm. "Get off your ass, get busy" can work very well.

The way I see it, the problem with other people is other people.

The truth is, whatever manner you can get through to them--whatever works--is the best way, whether motivational or tough love. It will not be the same for everyone. And you will not get through to everyone.

I understand. To some people, motivational materials will end up being nothing but coddling or a distraction. To some people, tough love will be taken as a vicious attack.

J

You, Phil and love sounds like a feast of jejune disingenuity.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

You, Phil and love sounds like a feast of jejune disingenuity.

--Brant

Yeah, I don't love Phil. If the term "tough love" is throwing you, just translate it to something like "stern truth."

J

[Philip Coates]

I love it when someone repeatedly calls someone a shitstain and then innocently says he's just trying to be helpful and offer "tough love".

[9thdoctor]

I love it when someone repeatedly calls someone a shitstain and then innocently says he's just trying to be helpful and offer "tough love".

I love the potty mouth on the crusader for civility.

[Jonathan]

I love it when someone repeatedly calls someone a shitstain and then innocently says he's just trying to be helpful and offer "tough love".

My sternly and truthfully identifying you as the shitstain that you are is indeed "tough love." As is my and everyone else's addressing your constant schoolmarming, hypocrisy and other bad behavior. It's all a part of helping you with your problems. I'm not supposed to say anything, but what the heck -- we all talked about maybe even having an "intervention" for you at a TAS seminar or something, but that turned out to be too hard to coordinate, at least in the past. Maybe we can pull it off in the future.

J

[Brant Gaede]

I love it when someone repeatedly calls someone a shitstain and then innocently says he's just trying to be helpful and offer "tough love".

My sternly and truthfully identifying you as the shitstain that you are is indeed "tough love." As is my and everyone else's addressing your constant schoolmarming, hypocrisy and other bad behavior. It's all a part of helping you with your problems. I'm not supposed to say anything, but what the heck -- we all talked about maybe even having an "intervention" for you at a TAS seminar or something, but that turned out to be too hard to coordinate, at least in the past. Maybe we can pull it off in the future.

J

I have no interest in "helping" Phil with his "problems," whatever they might be, or in calling him repulsive names. I well dealt with his situation and Shayne's by putting them on my "ignore" list. I still read them. The "ignore" list is merely to buffer them from my too easily engaged outrage upon their implicit animadversions on rightful and true knowledge and intellectual competence through the interactions supposedly characterized by ratiocination. Blah, blah, blah.

--Brant

[Xray]

[adressing Phil]:

You wrote the following on Roger's blog.

To admit to the honest, shameful, embarrassing truth, I have a certain kind of what's-the-use depression+cynicism+hopelessness that tells me no one will read it, appreciate it, and I'll end up feeling even worse. When Rand started feeling those things late in life and couldn't write another novel, unlike me she had already accomplished a life's work. In my case on the other hand, I'm basically still a nobody who has accomplished *nothing* of importance intellectually, and I'm having trouble finding motivation. When I sit down to write I feel a huge lack of energy.

It would interest me whether Phil was in some way influenced by the pressure some Objectivists seem to feel in terms of having to produce something unique, in order to qualify as a "first-hander".

[Brant Gaede]

[adressing Phil]:

You wrote the following on Roger's blog.

To admit to the honest, shameful, embarrassing truth, I have a certain kind of what's-the-use depression+cynicism+hopelessness that tells me no one will read it, appreciate it, and I'll end up feeling even worse. When Rand started feeling those things late in life and couldn't write another novel, unlike me she had already accomplished a life's work. In my case on the other hand, I'm basically still a nobody who has accomplished *nothing* of importance intellectually, and I'm having trouble finding motivation. When I sit down to write I feel a huge lack of energy.

It would interest me whether Phil was in some way influenced by the pressure some Objectivists seem to feel in terms of having to produce something unique, in order to qualify as a "first-hander".

A "first-hander" is merely someone who follows his own rational judgment, not someone else's. If you make a judgment and it's new to me and I agree with it because I rationally evaluate it and act accordingly, I'm being a first-hander respecting that even if you weren't: ironical but illustrative.

--Brant

I don't think Phil quite got Rand right about her fiction writing and motivation; it doesn't jibe with other accounts I've read: her depression stopped her cold on several fronts for several years and then she concentrated on non-fiction which she found more enjoyable