Peikoff qua "intellectual heir"

[9thdoctor]

"Circumcellions?" Never heard of them. But after reading the piece in Wikipedia, it's too bad that their tactics were not adopted by the Church. Could have saved the world from a heap of trouble.

You wish the church became crazier than it did? On the theory, what, that Western civilization would then have collapsed a few decades earlier? They were suicide terrorists. They used to attack the rich with clubs, since Jesus told Peter to put away his sword. They would barge into pagan celebrations and make a scene, deliberately inciting people so as to become martyrs.

We only know of them from their enemies, so the stories have to be read with a grain of salt. However, they had to be put down violently, by other Christians in the time of Augustine.

[Jerry Biggers]

From what I gathered from the Wikipedia article (which is literally all I know about these guys), the Circumcellians believed that being a true Christian required emulation of Jesus' martyrdom, so they provoked nonbelievers to kill them. Deliberately egging others on to kill you does not strike me as a very effective way to expand your flock.

So, what I meant (with tongue firmly in cheek) was that adoption of the Circumcellian beliefs and actions by the Church would have led to the shrinking of their power and expansion (or their extinction). Reduction or elimination of Church authority would not lead to the collapse of Western Civilization. Rather, the opposite.

[Roger Bissell]

From what I gathered from the Wikipedia article (which is literally all I know about these guys), the Circumcellians believed that being a true Christian required emulation of Jesus' martyrdom, so they provoked nonbelievers to kill them. Deliberately egging others on to kill you does not strike me as a very effective way to expand your flock.

So, what I meant (with tongue firmly in cheek) was that adoption of the Circumcellian beliefs and actions by the Church would have led to the shrinking of their power and expansion (or their extinction). Reduction or elimination of Church authority would not lead to the collapse of Western Civilization. Rather, the opposite.

You think others can't read between the lines, with your snarky little obscurities, but you are so transparent in your put-downs of Phil, one of the foremost members of the Cicumcellian-Objectivist sect. :-)

REB

[George H. Smith]

From what I gathered from the Wikipedia article (which is literally all I know about these guys), the Circumcellians believed that being a true Christian required emulation of Jesus' martyrdom, so they provoked nonbelievers to kill them. Deliberately egging others on to kill you does not strike me as a very effective way to expand your flock.

So, what I meant (with tongue firmly in cheek) was that adoption of the Circumcellian beliefs and actions by the Church would have led to the shrinking of their power and expansion (or their extinction). Reduction or elimination of Church authority would not lead to the collapse of Western Civilization. Rather, the opposite.

The Circumcellions were affiliated with the Donatists in North Africa, and the Donatists were the schismatics who convinced Augustine to abandon his earlier defense of religious toleration and to call for "righteous persecution" instead.

The Donatists were basically the ARIans of their day. They were purists, or "rigorists," who claimed that only those bishops who had not cooperated with the Romans during the persecution of Diocletian could administer sacraments and perform valid ordinations. This meant that many members of the Catholic Church, as it existed at the end of the fourth century, were not real Christians, until and unless they had been baptized by Donatist clergy.

In essence, the Donatists believed that the church should consist solely of "saints." The Catholic Church vehemently condemned this policy because it would doom the church to permanent minority status. Catholics, including Augustine -- the greatest critic of Donatism -- drew a distinction between a clerical office, such as bishop, and the person who held that office. This meant that even sinners could be bishops with the legitimate power to perform sacraments and ordain other bishops. The legitimacy of such rituals depended on the office, not on the individual.

Translated into O'ist terms, the O'ist Donatists are those who believe that only those sanctioned by Rand and subsequently by Peikoff can legitimately claim to be O'ists or teach its doctrines.

Ghs

[9thdoctor]

You think others can't read between the lines, with your snarky little obscurities, but you are so transparent in your put-downs of Phil, one of the foremost members of the Cicumcellian-Objectivist sect. :-)

Ugh. Up until now this thread has been a no Phil zone. And you’re his main defender these days! Try to understand: those of us who are sick of Phil simply don’t want to hear from him, or about him. We’ve identified the pattern, after numerous observations, and conclude that as soon as Phil sticks his blundering puss into a conversation, it stops being about whatever topic it was, and becomes all about what a pathetic specimen Phil is. Enough! Phil should find another online home. Why not OO? They have pretty active civility policing over there, oh wait, no, there he’d have that much less to lecture people about…

[Roger Bissell]

You think others can't read between the lines, with your snarky little obscurities, but you are so transparent in your put-downs of Phil, one of the foremost members of the Cicumcellian-Objectivist sect. :-)

Ugh. Up until now this thread has been a no Phil zone. And you’re his main defender these days! Try to understand: those of us who are sick of Phil simply don’t want to hear from him, or about him. We’ve identified the pattern, after numerous observations, and conclude that as soon as Phil sticks his blundering puss into a conversation, it stops being about whatever topic it was, and becomes all about what a pathetic specimen Phil is. Enough! Phil should find another online home. Why not OO? They have pretty active civility policing over there, oh wait, no, there he’d have that much less to lecture people about…

I didn't realize it was a no-humor zone. Nor that my comment deviated in any fundamental way from the numerous side-comments about the Circumcellians.

Try to lighten up and read for meaning, instead of knee-jerk reacting to the words and names as isolated concretes, OK?

REB

[9thdoctor]

I didn't realize it was a no-humor zone.

Huh? My comment was meant to be humorous too. The last sentence is the punch line, it's all supposed to build to that. "Blundering puss"? C'mon, obviously I'm just joking around...you should see me when I'm actually angry:

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

God, I hope no one does a Philabuster on this thread.

Michael

[Roger Bissell]

Count on Michael for a deeply meaningful, Philosophical comment. ;-) REB