Help with Depression

[Xray]

And how many adults do you know who truly know how to have fun?

How old are you, Chris? And what is your idea of "fun"? TIA for providing concrete examples.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[Xray]

Xray, he [= poster Andre] is trying the medication. He has said he long resisted the idea of biological causes for depression, but is willing to be proved wrong since nothing else has worked, so he is taking the pills. Hope they are helping!

It looks like he just started taking the medication yesterday because on July 21 he still replied to my question in the negative:

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Andre, have you already tried out the medication the doctor gave you?

No, it is sitting quietly in my bag. I am hesitant to start taking them.

July 22:

So Andre, are you taking the meds you were prescribed?

Yes.

Andre, it would be of great interest to all reading this thread if you could report on whether your medication works (and if it works, in what way).

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[theandresanchez]

It looks like he just started taking the medication yesterday because on July 21 he still replied to my question in the negative:

Yes. It sat in my bag for a few days after being bought as I have been feeling relatively well (I would never have asked for help here while in a deep state of depression). The doctor said they were a hyper-conservative medication/dose until he could figure out the proper treatment and that they wouldn't have a great, or immediate, impact. Considering their price tag and claimed effect, I wasn't anxious to start taking them. But I figured, "fuck it, just try it".

Andre, it would be of great interest to all reading this thread if you could report on whether your medication works (and if it works, in what way).

Sure. I just had some blood and brain tests done today and should be checking with the doctor again in a couple of weeks.

[Xray]

Pursuing your interests with all the passion you can muster definitely helps. So does marijuana. So do beer and wine.

Do you seriously recommend taking narcotics to people suffering from depression? What about the danger of substance dependence being added to the depression, and the downward spiral it can take?

Makes me think of Amy Winehouse (who died today at age 27).

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

Pursuing your interests with all the passion you can muster definitely helps. So does marijuana. So do beer and wine.

Do you seriously recommend taking narcotics to people suffering from depression? What about the danger of substance dependence being added to the depression, and the downward spiral it can take?

Makes me think of Amy Winehouse (who died today at age 27).

Oh, my God! Did she? I liked her music so much.. what a dreadful illustration of what we're talking about!! Self-medication by alcohol for the anxiety/too high part of depression is well known. I have certainly done it myself. As Jeff knows, short term it works. But in severe depression -- not an option.

[Dennis Hardin]

You have obviously not been treated by a qualified cognitive-behavioral therapist, so I seriously question whether you really want help.

I have limited financial resources. This issue (finances) takes most of my attention as without resources I have limited treatment options. There are also other issues that I have to deal with. The psychiatrist is already a stretch. There is a vicious cycle with the depression, I know. I have to make a judgement of what is more likely to help: this doctor, that doctor, or using the resources, when I have them, to perform my own, self-treatment? My experience with doctors so far has not been positive, though the psychiatrist seems to be a reasonable man. Can you tell me how cognitive-behavioral therapy deals with death anxiety? I know some people who do this type of therapy and while they may be better off than they would otherwise be (I have no way of knowing), they are far from well.

I suggest reading the chapter on Death Anxiety in Nathaniel Branden’s book, Honoring the Self. You might find that helpful. He provides several sentence stems which might give you some valuable insight.

Many colleges and psychology schools offer therapy on a sliding scale basis. I would suggest doing an online search for psychology schools in your local area and giving them a call. It is a lot cheaper than seeing a psychiatrist or paying for meds. Tell them you want to see someone who is knowledgeable about cognitive behavioral therapy and that you are not interested in some warm-and-fuzzy intern who will just hold your hand for fifty minutes.

Don't assume that the people you know "who do this type of therapy" are well-versed in CBT. As with anything in life, there is a vast range of competence among CBT practitioners. If it is done properly, cognitive behavioral therapy will require a lot of hard work on your part. It will require that you monitor your own “automatic thoughts” constantly to become self-aware of the negative things you tell yourself in certain situations, with follow-up by the therapist to examine those thoughts and help you attain a better perspective. It is based on an accurate perception of reality, not some rose-colored, Pollyanna bullshit.

I am not opposed to taking meds when they are the best solution. For truly serious depression, they may be necessary in order to enable the depressed person to get past their sense of paralysis. I am opposed to the inherent passivity of always looking to pills as a solution. If you truly want to get better, there are things you can do, but they will require getting off your butt and getting to work.

[caroljane]

You have obviously not been treated by a qualified cognitive-behavioral therapist, so I seriously question whether you really want help.

I have limited financial resources. This issue (finances) takes most of my attention as without resources I have limited treatment options. There are also other issues that I have to deal with. The psychiatrist is already a stretch. There is a vicious cycle with the depression, I know. I have to make a judgement of what is more likely to help: this doctor, that doctor, or using the resources, when I have them, to perform my own, self-treatment? My experience with doctors so far has not been positive, though the psychiatrist seems to be a reasonable man. Can you tell me how cognitive-behavioral therapy deals with death anxiety? I know some people who do this type of therapy and while they may be better off than they would otherwise be (I have no way of knowing), they are far from well.

I suggest reading the chapter on Death Anxiety in Nathaniel Branden’s book, Honoring the Self. You might find that helpful. He provides several sentence stems which might give you some valuable insight.

Many colleges and psychology schools offer therapy on a sliding scale basis. I would suggest doing an online search for psychology schools in your local area and giving them a call. It is a lot cheaper than seeing a psychiatrist or paying for meds. Tell them you want to see someone who is knowledgeable about cognitive behavioral therapy and that you are not interested in some warm-and-fuzzy intern who will just hold your hand for fifty minutes.

Don't assume that the people you know "who do this type of therapy" are well-versed in CBT. As with anything in life, there is a vast range of competence among CBT practitioners. If it is done properly, cognitive behavioral therapy will require a lot of hard work on your part. It will require that you monitor your own “automatic thoughts” constantly to become self-aware of the negative things you tell yourself in certain situations, with follow-up by the therapist to examine those thoughts and help you attain a better perspective. It is based on an accurate perception of reality, not some rose-colored, Pollyanna bullshit.

I am not opposed to taking meds when they are the best solution. For truly serious depression, they may be necessary in order to enable the depressed person to get past their sense of paralysis. I am opposed to the inherent passivity of always looking to pills as a solution. If you truly want to get better, there are things you can do, but they will require getting off your butt and getting to work.

As you acknowledge, truly serious depression is a state of paralysis of the will; serious depression is what I take Andre to have been describing. The causes and reasons, the triggers, the means for understanding and avoiding them, are the actions to take once the depressed person is capable of moving. One step at a time, yes?

[Dennis Hardin]

I am not opposed to taking meds when they are the best solution. For truly serious depression, they may be necessary in order to enable the depressed person to get past their sense of paralysis. I am opposed to the inherent passivity of always looking to pills as a solution. If you truly want to get better, there are things you can do, but they will require getting off your butt and getting to work.

As you acknowledge, truly serious depression is a state of paralysis of the will; serious depression is what I take Andre to have been describing. The causes and reasons, the triggers, the means for understanding and avoiding them, are the actions to take once the depressed person is capable of moving. One step at a time, yes?

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe. I got the impression that he was still reasonably functional despite his daily emotional struggles. In any case, yes--one step at a time. That's good advice for anyone trying to accomplish most anything.

[caroljane]

I am not opposed to taking meds when they are the best solution. For truly serious depression, they may be necessary in order to enable the depressed person to get past their sense of paralysis. I am opposed to the inherent passivity of always looking to pills as a solution. If you truly want to get better, there are things you can do, but they will require getting off your butt and getting to work.

As you acknowledge, truly serious depression is a state of paralysis of the will; serious depression is what I take Andre to have been describing. The causes and reasons, the triggers, the means for understanding and avoiding them, are the actions to take once the depressed person is capable of moving. One step at a time, yes?

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe. I got the impression that he was still reasonably functional despite his daily emotional struggles. In any case, yes--one step at a time. That's good advice for anyone trying to accomplish most anything.

I've looked back and I think that you're correct. His depression was not that severe at the time of his writing, as he said, he would not have written while severely depressed. He was describing a previous state to which I was reacting, a state he does not want to fall into again.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I'm just waiting for this dude to say to everyone (again), "Yeah, I already tried all this stuff. It's irrational and delusional, like you folks are, and I just can't be that way. (That "terrifies" me.)"

He doesn't say it in that manner, but that's exactly what he's saying. As if he has a clue about what human life really is. Well, I imagine he understands pain, fear, frustration, weariness of being weary, and clutching at the straws of lame rationalizations, but that's a poor excuse for understanding anything.

If I sound like I'm hard on him, it's because I've heard this same story over and over within the confines of AA and NA meetings. Almost to a tee. One after another. (Until they finally break and start healing. Not all make it, but fortunately many do.)

All this discussion is giving him exactly what he wants in order to stay exactly where he is at.

I honestly believe he seeks the Internet because his BS setup-and-payoff routine has worn out its effect on those around him.

I don't feel like nurturing that kind of spirit. I believe there's a good person in there somewhere. So I interrupt his script a bit.

Michael

[theandresanchez]

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe. I got the impression that he was still reasonably functional despite his daily emotional struggles. In any case, yes--one step at a time. That's good advice for anyone trying to accomplish most anything.

The doctor classified his impression of the depression as severe. It's debilitating strength fluctuates.

Sometimes I think I'm fine, that this is all behind me. These are, in retrospect, the most dangerous times, because I suddenly crash hard and fast. These are the times when I become near suicidal (I say near because I never had an actual failed attempt).

Edited July 23, 2011 by Andre

[caroljane]

I'm just waiting for this dude to say to everyone (again), "Yeah, I already tried all this stuff. It's irrational and delusional, like you folks are, and I just can't be that way. (That "terrifies" me.)"

He doesn't say it in that manner, but that's exactly what he's saying. As if he has a clue about what human life really is. Well, I imagine he understands pain, fear, frustration, weariness of being weary, and clutching at the straws of lame rationalizations, but that's a poor excuse for understanding anything.

If I sound like I'm hard on him, it's because I've heard this same story over and over within the confines of AA and NA meetings. Almost to a tee. One after another. (Until they finally break and start healing. Not all make it, but fortunately many do.)

All this discussion is giving him exactly what he wants in order to stay exactly where he is at.

I honestly believe he seeks the Internet because his BS setup-and-payoff routine has worn out its effect on those around him.

I don't feel like nurturing that kind of spirit. I believe there's a good person in there somewhere. So I interrupt his script a bit.

Michael

Michael, this guy has said he is a depressive, not an addict. Are you under the impression that he is an addict who just wants to mess with us? I don't know about addiction but I do know about depression, and what he describes rings true to me. Obviously something rings false to you.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Obviously something rings false to you.

Daunce,

I don't know if he's an addict. I do know the game he plays.

If he wants to talk about his pain and problems and attempts to overcome them, etc., that's good. That's what people sincerely engaged in getting better do.

But when he wants to blame all his problems on everybody he is talking to--and the rest of humanity for good measure--and explain (at payoff time) how he can't get better because he just can't get into their fucked-up way of thinking, that's a big honking game.

Meds, no meds, addiction, no addiction, depression, no depression, it doesn't matter. In my experience, he will never get better until he gives that crap up. I was on board with him, probing a bit to see where the real problem was, until he started. Then my BS meter went into overdrive.

You can be sure that a person who plays that kind of game does not tell you his real problem at the start. In fact, people who ask strangers for help rarely do. That's why I probed instead of giving advice right off the bat.

From what I have been able to see--which you, too can see by reading the thread over again--is that he discloses just enough to establish a hot button, which he then uses as bait to get folks engaged. Then, once he has some folks hooked, he unfolds his script until the payoff where he scratches his itch.

If this thread keeps going, I predict you will see the process I outlined loop over and over and never change.

(btw - I've been around severely depressed people, too. I've even been there myself.)

Michael

[theandresanchez]

But when he wants to blame all his problems on everybody he is talking to--and the rest of humanity for good measure--

Which happened at what point, exactly?

[caroljane]

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe. I got the impression that he was still reasonably functional despite his daily emotional struggles. In any case, yes--one step at a time. That's good advice for anyone trying to accomplish most anything.

The doctor classified his impression of the depression as severe. It's debilitating strength fluctuates.

Sometimes I think I'm fine, that this is all behind me. These are, in retrospect, the most dangerous times, because I suddenly crash hard and fast. These are the times when I become near suicidal (I say near because I never had an actual failed attempt).

This is typical. You mentioned recently that you had been feeling better, and I'm sure it was because you had taken action, in consulting a doctor and in joining this forum (and a brave action that one!). It's an alleviation. The crash will still come, as you know, absent the correct treatment,- only you and the professionals will figure out what that is.

[Dennis Hardin]

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe. I got the impression that he was still reasonably functional despite his daily emotional struggles. In any case, yes--one step at a time. That's good advice for anyone trying to accomplish most anything.

The doctor classified his impression of the depression as severe. It's debilitating strength fluctuates.

Sometimes I think I'm fine, that this is all behind me. These are, in retrospect, the most dangerous times, because I suddenly crash hard and fast. These are the times when I become near suicidal (I say near because I never had an actual failed attempt).

If you don't have a suicide safety plan in place, you should have.

If you begin to experience any of the warning signs of suicide listed in your suicide safety plan, proceed through the steps you have previously outlined for yourself, one by one, until you are feeling safe again.

I am obviously assuming you are being sincere. The web is replete with manipulative pretenders threatening suicide.

[Selene]

The boot is on the other foot. Severe Depression can lead to a painfully distorted view of reality and if medication can correct this, why not give it a try?

Angela:

The American idiom is "the shoe is on the other foot."

See: here "the boot is on the other foot (British & Australian) also the shoe is on the other foot (American) if you say that the boot is on the other foot, you mean that a situation is now the opposite of what it was before, often because a person who was in a weak position is now in a strong position In the past, we had great influence over their economy, but the boot is on the other foot now."

[Selene]

Pursuing your interests with all the passion you can muster definitely helps. So does marijuana. So do beer and wine.

Do you seriously recommend taking narcotics to people suffering from depression? What about the danger of substance dependence being added to the depression, and the downward spiral it can take?

Makes me think of Amy Winehouse (who died today at age 27).

Angela: Pot is not a narcotic.

Marijuana and hashish, two substances derived from the hemp plant (Cannabis sativa), are also considered natural hallucinogens, although their potency (power) is very low when compared to others. Marijuana (also called grass, pot, tea, weed, or reefer), a green herb from the flower of the hemp plant, is considered a mild hallucinogen. Hashish is marijuana in a more potent, concentrated form. Both drugs are usually smoked. Their effects include a feeling of relaxation, faster heart rate, the sensation that time is passing more slowly, and a greater sense of hearing, taste, touch, and smell.

Read more: Hallucinogens - used, first, anesthetic, blood, body, produced, plant, uses, Hallucinogen Classification, Hallucinogens and Spirituality, Marijuana, LSD, and PCP http://www.discoveriesinmedicine.com/Enz-Ho/Hallucinogens.html#ixzz1SysWBNd4

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Which happened at what point, exactly?

Andre,

Before you even got here. It's in the script.

Michael

[Selene]

If you don't have a suicide safety plan in place, you should have.

Excellent advice Dennis:

You should work together with someone you trust -- such as your best friend, a close family member or your doctor or therapist -- to develop your suicide safety plan. It is best to get these people involved, since you will most likely need to call on them if you decide to execute your plan. It is best to create the plan while you are feeling well and can think clearly rather than waiting until you are actively suicidal. Put your suicide safety plan in writing and keep it in a place where you can easily find it should the need arise.

I, like Michael, have held back commenting on your "expressed situation." This is quite unusual for me, as I usually will make a joke or ask qualifying questions or both.

Dennis' statement should be followed immediately, just in case. However, it raises questions for me and therefore, I am going to ask:

You live in São Paulo, the largest city in Brazil and the eighth largest city in the world. Therefore, your access to care should not be an issue.

Who is close to you that you trust?

How old are you?

What level of "education" have you reached?

Do you work part, or, full time, and, if you work. what do you do?

That is for starters.

Adam

I am on the your side

[Xray]

Pursuing your interests with all the passion you can muster definitely helps. So does marijuana. So do beer and wine.

Do you seriously recommend taking narcotics to people suffering from depression? What about the danger of substance dependence being added to the depression, and the downward spiral it can take?

Makes me think of Amy Winehouse (who died today at age 27).

Angela: Pot is not a narcotic.

Marijuana and hashish, two substances derived from the hemp plant (Cannabis sativa), are also considered natural hallucinogens, although their potency (power) is very low when compared to others. Marijuana (also called grass, pot, tea, weed, or reefer), a green herb from the flower of the hemp plant, is considered a mild hallucinogen. Hashish is marijuana in a more potent, concentrated form. Both drugs are usually smoked. Their effects include a feeling of relaxation, faster heart rate, the sensation that time is passing more slowly, and a greater sense of hearing, taste, touch, and smell.

Read more: Hallucinogens - used, first, anesthetic, blood, body, produced, plant, uses, Hallucinogen Classification, Hallucinogens and Spirituality, Marijuana, LSD, and PCP http://www.discoveriesinmedicine.com/Enz-Ho/Hallucinogens.html#ixzz1SysWBNd4

Adam,

Thanks for clarifying.

I had done a quick Google search before writing the post and hit on a link which listed Pot as a narcotic, but apparently this was wrong info: http://www.woxikon.com/eng/marihuana.php

California law calls marihuana a narcotic, which is also somewhat confusing.

Angela:

The American idiom is "the shoe is on the other foot."

See: here "the boot is on the other foot (British & Australian) also the shoe is on the other foot (American) if you say that the boot is on the other foot, you mean that a situation is now the opposite of what it was before, often because a person who was in a weak position is now in a strong position In the past, we had great influence over their economy, but the boot is on the other foot now."

Which idiom does one use if one wants to say "It's exactly the other way round."?

Edited July 24, 2011 by Xray

[Xray]

I didn't get the sense that Andre's depression was that severe.

The "looking for female" in his profile points in this direction as well. ;)

[Rich Engle]

Thanks for clarifying.

I had done a quick Google search before writing the post and hit on a link which listed Pot as a narcotic, but apparently this was wrong info: http://www.woxikon.c...g/marihuana.php

California law calls marihuana a narcotic, which is also somewhat confusing.

]

You can thank Nixon for putting that last nail in the coffin. Weed is on the same schedule as LSD and heroin, which is preposterous.

r

[Kat]

Hi Andre, welcome to OL.

I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering with depression and hope that you find relief. Depression is something I also have dealt with most of my life so I have some idea of what you are going through. There is a lot of good ideas in this thread but like any group it is a buffet of ideas from different individuals with different perspectives. Take what you want and leave the rest.

When I went through an especially bad episode of depression, I literally thought I was losing my mind. Everything seemed hopeless... I was a single mom with a special needs kid and ex wasn't paying child support and my job sucked and I felt like ending it all. I don't know how it is down where you live, but up here, if you express suicidal thoughts and intention to harm yourself or anyone else, they will check you into a psychiatric hospital. I've been hospitalized once for major depression nearly ten years ago. My experience in the hospital was helpful but also hell. My roommate was a schizophrenic former prostitute and drug addict who was hearing voices that were telling her to kill me. I tried to stay on her good side and as long as I shared my Dove dark promises, I was ok.

Recovery from a major depressive episode takes time and there may be some twists and turns along the way. I became agoraphobic and would easily become lost even in my own house, and in my case I could not go back to my job. I would have panic attacks just passing the place and it was at least 3 months before I could start temping. Depression creeps back into my life occasionally, actually I feel a tinge of it constantly, but I have not seen a doctor or therapist for it for several years, even after my best friend died. I am still trying to beat this thing, but I know that it ultimately comes from myself but support from others is extremely helpful in pulling through. I catch myself when I am falling into the stinking thinking mode and have a good man who will not let me go there ever again. Every morning Michael gives me a handful of vitamins along with St. John's wort....and not a day goes by when he doesn't say, "Kitten is Good." Sounds hokey, but it really does help me beat the blues.

Anyway, I've probably revealed too much, but I just wanted to share some of my story. Now here is some advice. You may have been there, done that and got the t-shirt or be in skeptical mode, but if any of this helps I hope you will accept it and pay it forward.

Give your meds at least a month to work and combine medication with therapy while you are in crisis mode, talk to a therapist at least once a week. If recommended to go to the hospital, go. Medicine and therapy do not have to go on forever but six months to a year may be necessary.

Seek out support groups and clubs. Interact with others who are going through similar experiences or have similar interests.

Accept the fact that you may never find the perfect psychiatrist or therapist and you may need to settle for good enough to get you through crisis mode and get unstuck.

Understand that there are many in the Libertarian subculture who deny the existence of addiction, depression and other mental illnesses. People may also say it is a weakness of character. There are liberals who will boo-hoo and pity you as a victim. Reality lies somewhere in between.

Take care of yourself physically and take your vitamins and St. John's wort.

Do crossword puzzles and other exercises that can help clear the fog and read self-help books

Make a conscious effort to try to enjoy life. Find something good somewhere. Do things you enjoy.

Do what you can to make your situation and circumstances better, whether it is an attitude adjustment or a physical, relationship, or financial change. Make a plan, take baby steps at first and don't give up. Remember, depression can be triggered by an event such as loss of a loved one, financial difficulties, etc. You can't always control what happens but how you react to situations is in your control, at least somewhat.

People turn their lives around every day and so can you.

Kat

[theandresanchez]

Who is close to you that you trust?

In what sense? My immediate family.

How old are you?

25.

What level of "education" have you reached?

I left school at the age of 13. The story is complicated and I don't see much point in sharing it on a public forum. I was not homeschooled either. In retrospect, a lot of my experiences beginning in that period seem to fit the description of bipolar depression.

Do you work part, or, full time, and, if you work. what do you do?

I do not have a job, I am, and have always been self employed. You can't keep a job if you don't show up for work, and I wasn't even able to force myself to show up for school on a consistent basis. I suffered very severe setbacks in this area, in great part because of this instability. I have had some successes but many of the projects that I start working on when the depression lifts I become unable to sustain for long and currently I'm without any reliable source of income as the ones I managed to build dried up, or a clear idea of how to apply my efforts effectively to correct that. I'm living with family. I'm currently working on a project that attempts to wire the brain of non-absolute hearers to perceive pitch on an absolute basis. The couple of people who have products in this area have a very vague sense of how this can be achieved and so sell products that are, if they work at all, very inefficient. This is part of a system that I'm developing to teach music, either in person or as a "teach yourself" product. I find myself having to struggle with the sense that my effort is futile and other elements of depression a lot of the time and so have been having difficulty making progress. In the meantime I have what little capital I have invested in a forex account that I trade on my own, using a mixture of long term fundamental analysis while taking advantage of short term volatility, which as long as don't allow my mood swings to drive me to do anything stupid, seems to do well. I do this to ensure that the depression does not keep me entirely stuck.