Help with Depression

[Dennis Hardin]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Computer Related Depression

Recent studies suggest that spending five hours or more on a computer each day can increase the risk of psychological problems, and it seems that there is a direct connection between length of time spent on a computer each day and an increase in depression.

Dennis,

Did you look at the sources for that Ehow article? Rense???... Softpedia???... but, to be fair, a solid one or two.

I have been concerned with how computers are rewiring our brains. I have felt the change in my own attention span. The best work I have found on this so far isThe Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. This is a fascinating work. There's also an excellent debate on YouTube between him and a guy from Google who gives informed rebuttal, which I believe is necessary with new territory of this nature.

Michael

Thanks for the recommendation, Michael. Sounds interesting. I've been wondering what has been happening to my brain.

[caroljane]

]

Andre,

I'm starting to feel like the local OL drug pusher, sidling up to you under the disapproving eyes of the neighbours. But your descriptions of your experience are so textbook that I really feel the medicine might help you.

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short."

Sorry for the unattributed quotes but everyone here knows I am too lazy to look them up.

Hope you'll let us know how you are feeling in a week or so.

Edited July 22, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The problem is not that I'm ignoring your advice in order to hold on to the way I'm doing things, the problem is that your advice is not in any sense new to me. I have followed it. It IS the way I did (and in many ways, still do) things. It has not worked for me.

Andre,

Blah blah blah.

What a load of crap.

If you would stop mouthing off so much and actually pay attention, you would easily see that, so far, I have not given you any advice.

Your itch to justify yourself is so great that you are rejecting what was not offered in the first place.

How would you know that I have opened up? How do you make this distinction between "my bullshit" and "real openness"?

It's easy.

I used to do a butt load of it.

It's called know-it-all mouthing off.

If you want some help lying to yourself, you are definitely in the wrong place.

Michael

[theandresanchez]

Your prior post (“Please help, if you can”) amounts to a cavalier negation of all the help that has been offered you to this point...

No.

You have obviously not been treated by a qualified cognitive-behavioral therapist, so I seriously question whether you really want help.

I have limited financial resources. This issue (finances) takes most of my attention as without resources I have limited treatment options. There are also other issues that I have to deal with. The psychiatrist is already a stretch. There is a vicious cycle with the depression, I know. I have to make a judgement of what is more likely to help: this doctor, that doctor, or using the resources, when I have them, to perform my own, self-treatment? My experience with doctors so far has not been positive, though the psychiatrist seems to be a reasonable man. Can you tell me how cognitive-behavioral therapy deals with death anxiety? I know some people who do this type of therapy and while they may be better off than they would otherwise be (I have no way of knowing), they are far from well.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Andre

[theandresanchez]

I used to do a butt load of it.

It's called know-it-all mouthing off.

I think your use of the past tense is unwarranted.

You have in fact offered advice by way of relating experiences and asking rhetorical questions, or at least I assume that was an attempt to help. If it was not, I don't know how to interpret what you wrote or why you wrote it. Are you just bored and toying with me?

[theandresanchez]

I'm starting to feel like the local OL drug pusher, sidling up to you under the disapproving eyes of the neighbours.

lol, thanks.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Are you just bored and toying with me?

Andre,

Nope.

Just trying to cut through your bullshit.

But I am starting to get bored.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I literally stumbled across this just now (researching something else entirely, i.e., procrastination).

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FomroPMOKvg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now that helps with the boredom...

Michael

[Xray]

I need help. From people who are actually rational, and won't simply tell me to "meditate" and "let go of the Ego" or any other such nonsense.

The rational advice is to seek professional medical help. Depression cannot be cured online.

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Andre, have you already tried out the medication the doctor gave you?

No, it is sitting quietly in my bag. I am hesitant to start taking them.

My experience with doctors so far has not been positive, though the psychiatrist seems to be a reasonable man.

Give it a try, Andre.

Are there any depression/mental health problems in your immediate family?

From my father's side, there is nothing obvious, though everyone is obese and seems somewhat gloomy, they are probably considered to be within the "normal" range. From my mother's side, my half-sister is diagnosed as bipolar and has a wreck of a life. My grandmother suffered from severe depression for several years (even being afraid to leave the house), but she had a difficult life, went through abuse, wars and revolutions. My uncle shows the behavior of a classic bipolar, though this is not an official publicly known diagnosis. Everyone in the family seems somewhat unstable, though it is hard to say exactly in what way and to what degree it is a "mental health problem" or a personality trait.

Depression often runs in families. Have you been diagnosed with a specific kind of depression by your pychiatrist?

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[theandresanchez]

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short.

I find the idea of becoming irrationally optimistic (delusional) terrifying. If the goal of mental health professionals is to induce delusion, that's kind of... insane. Is it not?

[caroljane]

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short.

I find the idea of becoming irrationally optimistic (delusional) terrifying. If the goal of mental health professionals is to induce delusion, that's kind of... insane. Is it not?

Normal mental health is a feeling of confidence and control in one's personal life present and future. Not total control, just non=anxiety. Since we cannot have knowledge, much less control, of everything in the world that affects our lives, and the future is unknowable, this feeling is not rationally justifiable. But we need it to function day to day without terror, and to make rational decisions. Terror, and depression, impair the decision-making process.

You seem to be saying that medical alleviation of your depression would alter your essential self, the rational man. Not so.

[PDS]

In psychology, we call this "secondary gain."

It is bizarre to ask if others have insight, understanding, that is of value to me when I am faced with a problem that causes me great suffering and which I have been unable to resolve? Are you proposing that the proper course of action is to ask for pity instead?

1. Go for a long walk, or, better yet, and if you are in better shape, go for a jog. Go as long and as far as you can in one direction, and then walk back to your starting point. Do this every day as soon as you wake up in the morning. Do this for a week. If you have bad knees, do a bike ride instead.

2. Get off the internet and stay off it for at least a week. Use your spare time to clean you living space from top to bottom and develop an intentional diet. Drink lots of water. No kidding.

3. Quit worrying about your death. The greatest poets and minds that the human race has produced have not figured death out, and you are not likely to either. Just quit worrying about it--it will either find you, or not, soon enough. If you don't believe me, take a look at this morning's obituaries.

4. Take concrete steps to improve the condition of your life. If you are broke, go get a part time job in addition to the one you (presumably) now have. This will put more money in your pocket and also take you mind off of your troubles, a little bit. If you don't have a job, get one. You seem smart enough, so a job should not be hard for you to find.

5. Resist the temptation to reject these ideas out of hand, as you seem to have done several times above, i.e., if you are going to ask for advice from strangers, you might just give some consideration to that advice.

I believe these 5 things will relieve some of your suffering. Momentum begets momentum. I am not a fan of depression drugs, but that is obviously between you and your doctor.

Edited July 23, 2011 by PDS

[anthony]

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short.

I find the idea of becoming irrationally optimistic (delusional) terrifying. If the goal of mental health professionals is to induce delusion, that's kind of... insane. Is it not?

This may be a self-delusional concept all on its own, but look up 'Depressive Realism' for another angle on this.

It is tempting to consider that we are depressed because we know too much - in reality.

Mere rationalization? I don't know, but it was something I told people jokingly for years to explain my own mild depression and gloominess.

Then somebody on OL(Shayne, I think) brought the 'syndrome' up on the forum.

I haven't studied the theory beyond that, and it seems to have its detractors, but it is worth a try.

Especially given the apparent cognitive nature to your depression - says he, in his total inexpertise!

I would be interested in whether Dennis Hardin gives this any credibility.

Tony

[Brant Gaede]

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short.

I find the idea of becoming irrationally optimistic (delusional) terrifying. If the goal of mental health professionals is to induce delusion, that's kind of... insane. Is it not?

You have to value your own life. You are not responsible for the well being and happiness of 6 1/2 billion people who, by their sheer numbers, experience collectively enormous tragedy even though things are generally getting better and better for humanity.You have to pursue happiness in order to get it. You have to build a home in order to live in it. That's what babies do learning to walk and talk. Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

[Brant Gaede]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

In that case the basic self has to fix the derived self. Retraining is in order.

--Brant

[PDS]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

In that case the basic self has to fix the derived self. Retraining is in order.

--Brant

I respect both of your views greatly on most subjects, but this seems a little complicated. I am aware of neither a basic or a derived self inside my body right now.

I am aware merely of a self.

[caroljane]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

In that case the basic self has to fix the derived self. Retraining is in order.

--Brant

I respect both of your views greatly on most subjects, but this seems a little complicated. I am aware of neither a basic or a derived self inside my body right now.

I am aware merely of a self.

Because your two selves live in subconscious harmony. You're, well, "well-integrated" - in normal mental health. For all that you're an OLer!

[PDS]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

In that case the basic self has to fix the derived self. Retraining is in order.

--Brant

I respect both of your views greatly on most subjects, but this seems a little complicated. I am aware of neither a basic or a derived self inside my body right now.

I am aware merely of a self.

Because your two selves live in subconscious harmony. You're, well, "well-integrated" - in normal mental health. For all that you're an OLer!

Or perhaps my one self lives in such a way...

This topic makes me want to break out my dog-eared copy of Jung's biography. Goofy old Carl Jung has much of value to say in this area.

Not off topic at all, and having just read a biography of sorts of Newton in his role as Warden of the Mint (post-discovery of gravity), I find it fascinating that both Jung and Newton were hardcore alchemists, and they both experienced frustrating failures w/r/t alchemy.

Not to be lighthearted about Andre's situation, but I will lend my hard-earned OL dollars to the first person who describes how Jung and Newton's efforts involving alchemy relate to this thread.

Edited July 23, 2011 by PDS

[caroljane]

Everybody needs two selves, the basic self and the self that takes care of that basic self--one's own best ass-kicking self-created friend who loves you.

--Brant

Exactly. Depression turns that best friend into your worst enemy/boss who knows and despises everything about you. And kicks you everywhere.

In that case the basic self has to fix the derived self. Retraining is in order.

--Brant

I respect both of your views greatly on most subjects, but this seems a little complicated. I am aware of neither a basic or a derived self inside my body right now.

I am aware merely of a self.

Because your two selves live in subconscious harmony. You're, well, "well-integrated" - in normal mental health. For all that you're an OLer!

Or perhaps my one self lives in such a way...

This topic makes me want to break out my dog-eared copy of Jung's biography. Goofy old Carl Jung has much of value to say in this area.

No off topic at all, and having just read a biography of sorts of Newton in his role as Warden of the Mint (post-discovery of gravity), I find it fascinating that both Jung and Newton were hardcore alchemists, and they both experienced frustrating failures w/r/t alchemy.

Not to be lighthearted about Andre's situation, but I will lend my hard-earned OL dollars to the first person who describes how Jung and Newton's efforts involving alchemy relate to this thread.

Not off-topic either, though I haven't read Jung except via Robertson Davies' novels, but definitely cross-thread:

"When you're not feeling holy, your loneliness says that you've sinned."

Feeling holy, whole. Not thinking it.

[Xray]

The "normal" emotional state for human beings is irrationally optimistic - life is a "Comedy to those who think and a tragedy for those who feel", and so on. There is no reason we should enjoy life in a world which is so full of ugliness and injustice, or plan for a future which may not come, but evolution ensures that we do - and probably did even back when everyone's life really was"nasty, brutish and short.

I find the idea of becoming irrationally optimistic (delusional) terrifying. If the goal of mental health professionals is to induce delusion, that's kind of... insane. Is it not?

The boot is on the other foot. Severe Depression can lead to a painfully distorted view of reality and if medication can correct this, why not give it a try?

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[Xray]

From webMD

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Depression

<...>

Anyone with mild or moderate depression can potentially benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy, even without taking medication. A number of studies have shown CBT to be at least as effective as antidepressants in treating mild and moderate depression. Studies also show that a combination of antidepressants and CBT can be effective in treating major depression.

CBT and REBT work. You simply need to find a trained, qualified therapist. Please don't let anyone discourage you from giving it a try.

But the article also recommends medication for more severe forms of depression.

CBT and REBT would certainly not work alone in e. g. cases of bipolar disorder.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

From webMD

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Depression

<...>

Anyone with mild or moderate depression can potentially benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy, even without taking medication. A number of studies have shown CBT to be at least as effective as antidepressants in treating mild and moderate depression. Studies also show that a combination of antidepressants and CBT can be effective in treating major depression.

CBT and REBT work. You simply need to find a trained, qualified therapist. Please don't let anyone discourage you from giving it a try.

But what about more severe forms, like e. g. bipolar depression? Isn't medication the medium of choice in these cases?

Xray, he is trying the medication. He has said he long resisted the idea of biological causes for depression, but is willing to be proved wrong since nothing else has worked, so he is taking the pills. Hope they are helping!

The effort of choosing a therapist, when you are in a severe depression, would be nearly impossible to make, since choosing clothes to wear in the morning uses up most of your emotional energy. After you've reasoned and forced yourself out of bed.

[caroljane]

This thread is getting a lot of views. A lot of depressed folks out there, so statistics say.

[caroljane]

I literally stumbled across this just now (researching something else entirely, i.e., procrastination).

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FomroPMOKvg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now that helps with the boredom...

Michael

I was feeling fine, till I watched this. Knowing that tomorrow will be a sunny day is depressing me unutterably.

Dying of the heat already,

Carol