Help with Depression

[theandresanchez]

Well, you can say that kind of stuff, and be confident, but let's look at one fact--you are depressed, and you called in the Big Dogs for some help, right? So, whatever you are doing, thinking, however confident you are in your assumptions, your shit is not working. If it was, you would not be depressed--you would be joyous, which, by-the-way, is an appropriate condition for human living. You are, at the least, portraying misery. Consider your actions, consider your happiness level. All I get from your writing is various forms of logical/philosophical arguments, punctuated by a general tone of misery. Never once have you said anything about what you do, or enjoy. That means that your shit isn't working, and you could find something different. You are hanging on to something that is, apparently, dragging your miserable, sorry ass down.

So, you can have that. I have pretty hard skin to read that stuff, and I will help when I can, but eventually I will pull away because I can't stand the fucking drag, drafting. You are very close to becoming an energy vampire.

Man up. Choose who you want to be; either a miserable bastard, or maybe a person that loves waking up every morning.

rde

Good Luck On Your Mission!

Just to be clear, I do not dismiss hedonism out of hand. That I'm identifying this way of thinking as hedonism does not mean I reject it. Rand explicitly rejected hedonism, but due to her own cognitive dissonance, implicitly accepted it. She just had a relatively long range view of hedonism, just as the philosophers from which the term came to us did.

I can tell you of things I enjoy. I enjoy beautiful women. I enjoy the morning sun. I enjoy iCarly. I enjoy being productive. I have been working (to the degree that I can overcome depression) on a system for the learning of absolute pitch. I enjoy the idea that this is (as far as I can tell) possible.

[theandresanchez]

People like you are the reason why I was disappointed that Andre came here looking for help.

Chris, can you recommend a better place I could go to for help? To be clear, I'm not interested in having a pity party, I would rather people be rude and helpful than nice and useless. Sometimes it is better to hear someone say "you're fat, ugly and stupid" and be shocked out of that life than to hear "you're perfect just the way you are" and remain in it.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Andre

[theandresanchez]

You are on to something when you write that the standard cure for depression appears to be a kind of self-deception.

Unfortunately, I think Jeff is right on the money here. The "self-deception" also explains why religion has survived for as long as it has. Some people have seen the bankruptcy of religion and have tried other things--Landmark Education, The Secret, and other baloney.

http://www.viewzone.com/TMT.html

For a deeper understanding of this process applied, see 1984.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Andre

[Jonathan]

(DELETED FOR UNEXPECTED, UNUSUAL AND SERIOUS REASONS.)

Isn't that a fairly common attitude among the very talented?

J

[BaalChatzaf]

It is falsified by the current state of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics is the identification of a pattern which exists within a specific context. This pattern is a fact of nature. The wider extrapolation you are making is not.

All that there is, is physical nature. There is nothing else.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[theandresanchez]

It is falsified by the current state of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics is the identification of a pattern which exists within a specific context. This pattern is a fact of nature. The wider extrapolation you are making is not.

All that there is, is physical nature. There is nothing else.

Ba'al Chatzaf

That is a tautology.

[Dennis Hardin]

Amen, Dennis. I know it works and I don 't think anyone here is discouraging Andre from trying it (i.e., cognitive-behavioral therapy). . .

Those who imply that “victims” of depression must learn to live with it tend to discourage others from seeking help.

Now the big question: where do you actually find a competent therapist? There are certainly plenty of worthless ones out there.

Here is one possible source—a search engine--although I cannot personally vouch for the accuracy and validity of their credentialing process:

CBT Certification search engine

Regardless of competence, the prospective client must always be sensitive to whether a particular therapist is a good match in terms of style and personality.

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Computer Related Depression

Recent studies suggest that spending five hours or more on a computer each day can increase the risk of psychological problems, and it seems that there is a direct connection between length of time spent on a computer each day and an increase in depression.

[theandresanchez]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Yes, computers are tools. This thread is turning into a "debate" and not helping me figure out what to actually do. If nothing of value gets added to it in the next couple of days, I'll stop checking for replies. Please help, if you can.

[caroljane]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Computer Related Depression

Recent studies suggest that spending five hours or more on a computer each day can increase the risk of psychological problems, and it seems that there is a direct connection between length of time spent on a computer each day and an increase in depression.

That's kind of chicken and eggish isn't it? Who has five hours a day to spend only on the computer? - the unemployed, the antisocial - they're probably depressed already.

[Rich Engle]

Unfortunately, I think Jeff is right on the money here. The "self-deception" also explains why religion has survived for as long as it has. Some people have seen the bankruptcy of religion and have tried other things--Landmark Education, The Secret, and other baloney. And how many adults do you know who truly know how to have fun?

Ah, spoken like a true hard-ass. How many do I know? Hundreds. My wife and I are having fun right now.

Jeez, I knew this whole thing was gonna get a stink on it right off the rip.

r

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Andre has gotten more sympathy here than I expected. But I knew that some people would just use this thread as an excuse to be self-righteous and malevolent. I experienced the same thing between the IOS seminar in 1995 and 1996, and I have never gotten over it.

Chris,

Of course he got sympathy. OL is full of good people.

The problems started when Andre rejected the sympathy, started explaining to people how wrong they think based on boneheaded presumptions that are only in his head and not in theirs (which I base on what they have posted over months), and explaining to them what Objectivism really is and what it isn't--when it's obvious that he has wedded some weird ideas of his own to his understanding of it.

(The guy even spells Objectivism with a lower case "o.")

At first I thought this was a sincere attempt to discuss things and open up and find new people to relate to, and (I hope) there still might be some element of that. But his mind games and arrogant presumptions with people who try to be nice to him--which to me signal nothing more than a cry for attention and the wish to scratch a neurotic itch at the expense of others--are as thick as molasses.

You mostly get what you give in life. That generally holds true even with good people.

I have the feeling there is a hidden script operating here. And I have a feeling Mr. Andre will try to push people into his hidden plot line even when they don't fit. From what I see, he has already started. But I ain't going to be an actor in that play.

This ain't like what you went through with the Randroids, either. You ran into some serious cult mentality issues. You won't find that here--not in reality--no matter how much the call to repeat the pain clamors.

Michael

[Dennis Hardin]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Computer Related Depression

Recent studies suggest that spending five hours or more on a computer each day can increase the risk of psychological problems, and it seems that there is a direct connection between length of time spent on a computer each day and an increase in depression.

That's kind of chicken and eggish isn't it? Who has five hours a day to spend only on the computer? - the unemployed, the antisocial - they're probably depressed already.

How do you want your eggs?

Americans Greatly Increasing Time Spent Online

On average, American adults are now spending just under 4 hours each day online; that is an 81% increase over 2006 numbers, according to a new report from The Media Audit.

Four hours is the average, and that was in 2009.

[Rich Engle]

Andre has gotten more sympathy here than I expected. But I knew that some people would just use this thread as an excuse to be self-righteous and malevolent. I experienced the same thing between the IOS seminar in 1995 and 1996, and I have never gotten over it.

Chris,

Of course he got sympathy. OL is full of good people.

The problems started when Andre rejected the sympathy, started explaining to people how wrong they think based on boneheaded presumptions that are only in his head and not in theirs (which I base on what they have posted over months), and explaining to them what Objectivism really is and what it isn't--when it's obvious that he has wedded some weird ideas of his own to his understanding of it.

(The guy even spells Objectivism with a lower case "o.")

At first I thought this was a sincere attempt to discuss things and open up and find new people to relate to, and (I hope) there still might be some element of that. But his mind games and arrogant presumptions with people who try to be nice to him--which to me signal nothing more than a cry for attention and the wish to scratch a neurotic itch at the expense of others--are as thick as molasses.

You mostly get what you give in life. That generally holds true even with good people.

I have the feeling there is a hidden script operating here. And I have a feeling Mr. Andre will try to push people into his hidden plot line even when they don't fit. From what I see, he has already started. But I ain't going to be an actor in that play.

This ain't like what you went through with the Randroids, either. You ran into some serious cult mentality issues. You won't find that here--not in reality--no matter how much the call to repeat the pain clamors.

Michael

Agree 100%. I should have never touched my toes in the water. Once again, I distrusted my gut, and that's the only time things go South for me.

As far as I'm concerned, Mike, they can all go wallow in this one and put on little look at me shows. If you edit that down, I am saying "Fuck this."

rde

Fuck this.

[Dennis Hardin]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Yes, computers are tools. This thread is turning into a "debate" and not helping me figure out what to actually do. If nothing of value gets added to it in the next couple of days, I'll stop checking for replies. Please help, if you can.

I'm sorry, but that is a very bizarre thing to say.

In psychology, we call this "secondary gain."

[theandresanchez]

But his mind games and arrogant presumptions with people who try to be nice to him--which to me signal nothing more than a cry for attention and the wish to scratch a neurotic itch at the expense of others--are as thick as molasses.

My what?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

And in case anyone should suffer the illusion that following a thread like this one is likely to help without taking further action:

Computer Related Depression

Recent studies suggest that spending five hours or more on a computer each day can increase the risk of psychological problems, and it seems that there is a direct connection between length of time spent on a computer each day and an increase in depression.

Dennis,

Did you look at the sources for that Ehow article? Rense???... Softpedia???... but, to be fair, a solid one or two.

I have been concerned with how computers are rewiring our brains. I have felt the change in my own attention span. The best work I have found on this so far is The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. This is a fascinating work. There's also an excellent debate on YouTube between him and a guy from Google who gives informed rebuttal, which I believe is necessary with new territory of this nature.

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K9-Ec7z4fFw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Michael

[theandresanchez]

In psychology, we call this "secondary gain."

It is bizarre to ask if others have insight, understanding, that is of value to me when I am faced with a problem that causes me great suffering and which I have been unable to resolve? Are you proposing that the proper course of action is to ask for pity instead?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Andre,

We ain't causing your pain (which I believe is real). You came here with it.

I believe you are seeking to blame this on something outside yourself and we are merely the fresh meat in that game.

Michael

[theandresanchez]

We ain't causing your pain (which I believe is real).

Why are you under the impression that I am not aware of this?

I believe you are seeking to blame this on something outside yourself and we are merely the fresh meat in that game.

You are mistaken.

[caroljane]

So Andre, are you taking the meds you were prescribed?

Edited July 22, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You are mistaken.

Andre,

Good.

Now all we have to do is see this reflected in your posts.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Just for the record, here's how I learned it while getting out of the pain of serious drug addiction.

You have two ears and one mouth and you should use them--really use them and not just play at it--in that proportion.

When a person in pain wants to go around telling everyone else what they really think and how wrong they are, he ain't seeking a solution to the pain, but instead a justification for what he is doing about it even though it ain't working.

It's bullshit.

When a person asks for help getting out of deep mental pain, it has to start with the humility of knowing that what he has been doing so far ain't resolving it. The best he has been able to do is ease it for short stretches. So when someone offers a suggestion, he either listens and analyzes--or decides he knows better and mouths off.

Listening and analyzing doesn't mean he ends up accepting the suggestion. It only means that he is seriously willing to look at something he hasn't been doing up to now. But when he mouths off, he ain't doing that. He is merely seeking a way to keep the status quo and feel good about it.

I know of all this because I have lived it--both sides.

The best smeller of bullshit is a former bullshitter.

If Andre really opens up, I'm more than here (as are many here on OL--witness this thread). But I'm only here for him, not for his bullshit.

Michael

[theandresanchez]

So Andre, are you taking the meds you were prescribed?

Yes.

[theandresanchez]

When a person asks for help getting out of deep mental pain, it has to start with the humility of knowing that what he has been doing so far ain't resolving it. The best he has been able to do is ease it for short stretches. So when someone offers a suggestion, he either listens and analyzes--or decides he knows better and mouths off.

You are making the assumption that my "mouthing off" happens previous the listening and analyzing. I take the suggestions quite seriously. But I have heard, and TRIED these all before, with the exception of the drug route, because I always thought the problem could not be biological in nature. Yet I'm going to a doctor because I haven't found an alternative solution, and maybe I'm wrong about that, so I might as well check. I'm not retarded. I don't need others to tell me "If you are feeling down, go watch a comedy". Yes, it helps, as you have suggested, to pursue a "passion", or excitement, but I have found no way to sustain this. I will enter a manic state (at best) for a short while but then I crash into a deep sense of futility, despair, loss, fear. I have gone through this cycle many, many times.

There might be a psychotherapist that is useful to me, but I have studied WHAT they do, so I doubt it. I have studied Branden and countless other perspectives and models. I have patiently listened to complete nutjobs until coming to the conclusion that they were just leading me around in circles, because until I understood what they were saying, I did not know that this was the case. The problem is not that I'm ignoring your advice in order to hold on to the way I'm doing things, the problem is that your advice is not in any sense new to me. I have followed it. It IS the way I did (and in many ways, still do) things. It has not worked for me. Do not assume that you can psychoanalyze me from your limited perspective of a few posts on a forum.

The only times I have left depression is when I have felt fundamentally safe in the universe, when I have felt competent to live, to enjoy life. Not competent to move along through life "doing the best I can until I finally die", but to actually live a joyful life. Not necessarily in the immediate moment, but as something that was open to me. This was produced by a "religious" experience of creating what people call a "personal relationship with God" (no, I don't mean in the christian sense). The problem is that looking back, it seems that perspective was an illusion and that my fundamental nature in the universe is of insecurity and powerlessness. I have sought to find a way out of this without self-delusion, without trying to rationalize things. If you cannot help me find this way, your words have no value to me. I do not find them entertaining.

If Andre really opens up, I'm more than here (as are many here on OL--witness this thread). But I'm only here for him, not for his bullshit.

How would you know that I have opened up? How do you make this distinction between "my bullshit" and "real openness"?

Edited July 22, 2011 by Andre

[Dennis Hardin]

In psychology, we call this "secondary gain."

It is bizarre to ask if others have insight, understanding, that is of value to me when I am faced with a problem that causes me great suffering and which I have been unable to resolve? Are you proposing that the proper course of action is to ask for pity instead?

Your prior post (“Please help, if you can”) amounts to a cavalier negation of all the help that has been offered you to this point, as if it means nothing to you, which I strongly suspect it does.

There might be a psychotherapist that is useful to me, but I have studied WHAT they do, so I doubt it. I have studied Branden and countless other perspectives and models. I have patiently listened to complete nutjobs until coming to the conclusion that they were just leading me around in circles, because until I understood what they were saying, I did not know that this was the case. The problem is not that I'm ignoring your advice in order to hold on to the way I'm doing things, the problem is that your advice is not in any sense new to me. I have followed it. . .

You have obviously not been treated by a qualified cognitive-behavioral therapist, so I seriously question whether you really want help.

If you respond by claiming that you have had such treatment, please describe the kind of interventions that were used. I would find that very enlightening.