Help with Depression

[jriggenbach]

(DELETED FOR UNEXPECTED, UNUSUAL AND SERIOUS REASONS.)

[caroljane]

(DELETED FOR UNEXPECTED, UNUSUAL AND SERIOUS REASONS.)

It's good to know you can hobble around well now, having rejected the scientifically worthless antidepressant cast. A few million people could say their placebos worked pretty well.

[theandresanchez]

I got the same kind of self-righteous, pure hatred that you are getting now. Don't try to tell me that Objectivists are benevolent.

I didn't perceive any hatred.

I'm sending you my Facebook page.

I don't really use Facebook, but I guess I can get my account back up.

[caroljane]

I got the same kind of self-righteous, pure hatred that you are getting now. Don't try to tell me that Objectivists are benevolent.

I didn't perceive any hatred.

I'm sending you my Facebook page.

I don't really use Facebook, but I guess I can get my account back up.

Andre, I don't know what Chris is talking about. I responded to you, as is probably obvious, because I have experienced severe depression. The "up" activities that usually cheer and refresh,== when you're depressed, they're only a respite from your real psychological job, which is the depression treadmill, endlessly suffering the awfulness of life and your own failure to redress anything--it's exhausting, and you can't break out of it by yourself, and you've never been more alone in your life. But I repeat, it is a physical problem that may be amenable to medicine, and any competent GP can diagnose it, and give the first aid, and refer you to a therapist or specialist.

The reasons or triggers, which consume you, are not the primary problem now. However you broke your leg, or gotthe flu, you can figure out later how it happened and avoid it in the future.

Are there any depression/mental health problems in your immediate family?

[Xray]

The medical approach is worthless, in my opinion. Psychotherapy may not be utterly worthless, but it's not worth what it costs. I've done both of these things. I saw Nathaniel Branden, Roger Callahan, and half a dozen other psychologists. I tried Prozac. The antidepressant drugs don't work any better than placebos. The theories about "chemical imbalances" are scientifically worthless fantasies - wishful thinking.

It's good to know you can hobble around well now, having rejected the scientifically worthless antidepressant cast. A few million people could say their placebos worked pretty well.

Those alleged "placebos", as JR calls them, have saved many people's lives.

The theories about "chemical imbalances" are scientifically worthless fantasies - wishful thinking.

This is clearly wrong.

I got the same kind of self-righteous, pure hatred that you are getting now. Don't try to tell me that Objectivists are benevolent.

I didn't perceive any hatred.

Nor did I.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

(DELETED FOR UNEXPECTED, UNUSUAL AND SERIOUS REASONS.)

It's good to know you can hobble around well now, having rejected the scientifically worthless antidepressant cast. A few million people could say their placebos worked pretty well.

Those alleged "placebos", as JR calls them, have saved many people's lives.

One of those precious lives was my mother's, she got to live a long full life as utterly herself - she was irreplaceable and irresistible. Her illness was not primarily bipolar in nature however, she was not prescribed antidepressants as such. Her early medications (antipsychotics) in the 60s and 70s were hard on her and the family, but they improved in the next 20 years and she was truly set free.

[theandresanchez]

Are there any depression/mental health problems in your immediate family?

From my father's side, there is nothing obvious, though everyone is obese and seems somewhat gloomy, they are probably considered to be within the "normal" range. From my mother's side, my half-sister is diagnosed as bipolar and has a wreck of a life. My grandmother suffered from severe depression for several years (even being afraid to leave the house), but she had a difficult life, went through abuse, wars and revolutions. My uncle shows the behavior of a classic bipolar, though this is not an official publicly known diagnosis. Everyone in the family seems somewhat unstable, though it is hard to say exactly in what way and to what degree it is a "mental health problem" or a personality trait.

[Rich Engle]

I am sorry to see that you came here looking for sympathy. It looks like Michael is the only one capable of providing any so far, and I hope I can do that for you as well.

Well, that was just lovely, Chris. You never fail to underwhelm me.

Try making this about Andre and not you. Think you can do that?

rde

[caroljane]

Are there any depression/mental health problems in your immediate family?

From my father's side, there is nothing obvious, though everyone is obese and seems somewhat gloomy, they are probably considered to be within the "normal" range. From my mother's side, my half-sister is diagnosed as bipolar and has a wreck of a life. My grandmother suffered from severe depression for several years (even being afraid to leave the house), but she had a difficult life, went through abuse, wars and revolutions. My uncle shows the behavior of a classic bipolar, though this is not an official publicly known diagnosis. Everyone in the family seems somewhat unstable, though it is hard to say exactly in what way and to what degree it is a "mental health problem" or a personality trait.

Andre, I had an aunt with agoraphobia, and she went through no abuse, wars or revolutions. She just had the biological susceptibility to become agoraphobic (and other things) and she so became. We can't escape our bodies, and our brains are part of our bodies, and if we get sick we get sick. There are so many, many ways to be well and stay well --- but first we must get well. It sounds to me that you are like me - normal but with a "short middle", the highs and lows too close together--I tend to carom off the edges, but can't go too high or low. If there's a tendency to fall off the edges in your family (and sounds like it in your case) there's a good chance you can be brought back up to full health.

I'm rooting for you/

[theandresanchez]

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if human beings understood why life is such a crock of shit and had a solution for each and every problem that really, really worked? Hey! Let's pretend we do have that understanding and those solutions!

My concern is not that there are negative aspects to my life that I do not know, in the immediate moment, how to deal with. My concern is that I don't really have the time to figure things out, even assuming they can be figured out, that life is fundamentaly outside of my control. I may work hard to put myself in a "sweet spot" so to speak, but I'll be dragged out of it and into the abyss, where I'll be chained forever, with no way out.

[Xray]

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Andre, have you already tried out the medication the doctor gave you?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Xray

[theandresanchez]

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Andre, have you already tried out the medication the doctor gave you?

No, it is sitting quietly in my bag. I am hesitant to start taking them.

[Rich Engle]

My concern is not that there are negative aspects to my life that I do not know, in the immediate moment, how to deal with. My concern is that I don't really have the time to figure things out, even assuming they can be figured out, that life is fundamentaly outside of my control. I may work hard to put myself in a "sweet spot" so to speak, but I'll be dragged out of it and into the abyss, where I'll be chained forever, with no way out.

That's all very touching, but welcome to the human race. You could get mowed down tomorrow. You have The Fear. This is a classic situation, nothing more, nothing less. It Goes With The Territory<tm>.

And take the pills. Do something. The abyss. Jesus, that's lovely imagery. Actually, life doesn't do things nearly as sexy to you as that. Looks good on paper, though.

Either way, you wake up in the morning and that sun is gong to be up, right?

You'll be fine, you are in a funk. But you have to take steps.

Best,

rde

[theandresanchez]

My concern is not that there are negative aspects to my life that I do not know, in the immediate moment, how to deal with. My concern is that I don't really have the time to figure things out, even assuming they can be figured out, that life is fundamentaly outside of my control. I may work hard to put myself in a "sweet spot" so to speak, but I'll be dragged out of it and into the abyss, where I'll be chained forever, with no way out.

That's all very touching, but welcome to the human race. You could get mowed down tomorrow. You have The Fear. This is a classic situation, nothing more, nothing less. It Goes With The Territory<tm>.

That's exactly the problem.

Either way, you wake up in the morning and that sun is gong to be up, right?

See above.

[caroljane]

My concern is not that there are negative aspects to my life that I do not know, in the immediate moment, how to deal with. My concern is that I don't really have the time to figure things out, even assuming they can be figured out, that life is fundamentaly outside of my control. I may work hard to put myself in a "sweet spot" so to speak, but I'll be dragged out of it and into the abyss, where I'll be chained forever, with no way out.

That's all very touching, but welcome to the human race. You could get mowed down tomorrow. You have The Fear. This is a classic situation, nothing more, nothing less. It Goes With The Territory<tm>.

That's exactly the problem.

Either way, you wake up in the morning and that sun is gong to be up, right?

See above.

You can't navigate the territory with a broken leg; see my above. Take the pills. They're only stardust, whence we all come, as said before,and your feelings right now cannot affect whether they might work or not.

Some take up to 3 weeks to work and some work within 2 or 4 days. And they do work, for many.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I can't resist a quip from a traditional Objectivist slant:

Death premise anyone?

Michael

[caroljane]

I can't resist a quip from a traditional Objectivist slant:

Death premise anyone?

Michael

It's not such a quip as you think. Being in a clinical depression is entirely premised on death, the depressed person has forgotten how to live, believes he does not deserve to live, and wishes only not to live because life is unbearable, constant mental torture.

There is a quote, I forget the source-

"Acute clinical depression is a disease which left untreated, is nearly always fatal."

[Dennis Hardin]

From webMD

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Depression

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is an effective treatment for depression. At the heart of CBT is an assumption that a person's mood is directly related to his or her patterns of thought. Negative, dysfunctional thinking affects a person's mood, sense of self, behavior, and even physical state. The goal of cognitive behavioral therapy is to help a person learn to recognize negative patterns of thought, evaluate their validity, and replace them with healthier ways of thinking.

At the same time, therapists who practice CBT aim to help their patients change patterns of behavior that come from dysfunctional thinking. Negative thoughts and behavior predispose an individual to depression and make it nearly impossible to escape its downward spiral. When patterns of thought and behavior are changed, according to CBT practitioners, so is mood.

Anyone with mild or moderate depression can potentially benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy, even without taking medication. A number of studies have shown CBT to be at least as effective as antidepressants in treating mild and moderate depression. Studies also show that a combination of antidepressants and CBT can be effective in treating major depression.

CBT and REBT work. You simply need to find a trained, qualified therapist. Please don't let anyone discourage you from giving it a try.

[caroljane]

From webMD

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Depression

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is an effective treatment for depression. At the heart of CBT is an assumption that a person's mood is directly related to his or her patterns of thought. Negative, dysfunctional thinking affects a person's mood, sense of self, behavior, and even physical state. The goal of cognitive behavioral therapy is to help a person learn to recognize negative patterns of thought, evaluate their validity, and replace them with healthier ways of thinking.

At the same time, therapists who practice CBT aim to help their patients change patterns of behavior that come from dysfunctional thinking. Negative thoughts and behavior predispose an individual to depression and make it nearly impossible to escape its downward spiral. When patterns of thought and behavior are changed, according to CBT practitioners, so is mood.

Anyone with mild or moderate depression can potentially benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy, even without taking medication. A number of studies have shown CBT to be at least as effective as antidepressants in treating mild and moderate depression. Studies also show that a combination of antidepressants and CBT can be effective in treating major depression.

CBT and REBT work. You simply need to find a trained, qualified therapist. Please don't let anyone discourage you from giving it a try.

Amen, Dennis. I know it works and I don 't think anyone here is discouraging Andre from trying it, nor from trying any prescribed medical treatments which are also proven to work, they work together.

[theandresanchez]

I can't resist a quip from a traditional Objectivist slant:

Death premise anyone?

Michael

No. Are you aware of rand's take on suicide?

I have come to the point of thinking there was no alternative but suicide, but at that moment my mind started shifting back and forth between despair and a deep need to hold on to hope. Apathy and anger have blocked suicidal ideation from becoming a suicide attempt. Fundamentaly I do not wish to die, I wish to live, and the thought of being driven to suicide actually made me angry at the universe. It is the sense that I cannot live that drives me to despair. The sense that I have no long term. That no virtue can save me.

[algernonsidney]

Now the big question: where do you actually find a competent therapist? There are certainly plenty of worthless ones out there.

[theandresanchez]

It's not such a quip as you think. Being in a clinical depression is entirely premised on death, the depressed person has forgotten how to live, believes he does not deserve to live, and wishes only not to live because life is unbearable, constant mental torture.

There is a quote, I forget the source-

"Acute clinical depression is a disease which left untreated, is nearly always fatal."

It's somewhat amusing that such words are used. Those who do not suffer from depression seem to die just as often as those who do.

[Rich Engle]

Now the big question: where do you actually find a competent therapist? There are certainly plenty of worthless ones out there.

Nothing like good, positive vibes. Feel better now, Andre? After Chris performed his particular form of voodoo?

Nathaniel Branden wrote some good stuff about anxiety. But you have to buy them, now. He has a good mp3 that might help. I mastered that one, originally; it was down to cassette tape and I brought in some pretty good guys to clean up the recording. Long time ago. Worth the five bucks, for sure. It could only help.

rde

Rather than hurt, and make it into your own Little Show<tm>.

[caroljane]

It's not such a quip as you think. Being in a clinical depression is entirely premised on death, the depressed person has forgotten how to live, believes he does not deserve to live, and wishes only not to live because life is unbearable, constant mental torture.

There is a quote, I forget the source-

"Acute clinical depression is a disease which left untreated, is nearly always fatal."

It's somewhat amusing that such words are used. Those who do not suffer from depression seem to die just as often as those who do.

"O queen of air and darkness,

'tis true, 'tis true you say,

And I will die tomorrow,

But you will die today."

Edited July 22, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Are you aware of rand's take on suicide?

Andre,

Everything I know of by Rand on suicide involves an attitude toward values.

Here is one passage from The Fountainhead that left a deep impression on me for years:

Gail Wynand raised a gun to his temple.

He felt the pressure of a metal ring against his skin—and nothing else. He might have been holding a lead pipe or a piece of jewelry; it was just a small circle without significance. "I am going to die," he said aloud—and yawned.

He felt no relief, no despair, no fear. The moment of his end would not grant him even the dignity of seriousness. It was an anonymous moment; a few minutes ago, he had held a toothbrush in that hand; now he held a gun with the same casual indifference.

One does not die like this, he thought. One must feel a great joy or a healthy terror. One must salute one's own end. Let me feel a spasm of dread and I'll pull the trigger. He felt nothing.

He shrugged and lowered the gun. He stood tapping it against the palm of his left hand. People always speak of a black death or a red death, he thought: yours, Gail Wynand, will be a gray death. Why hasn't anyone ever said that this is the ultimate horror? Not screams, pleas or convulsions. Not the indifference of a clean emptiness, disinfected by the fire of some great disaster. But this—a mean, smutty little horror, impotent even to frighten. You can't do it like that, he told himself, smiling coldly; it would be in such bad taste.

One secondary character actually did commit suicide in Atlas Shrugged--Cherryl. She killed herself once she realized that James had married her because, although she was poor when they met, he knew she would try her best to improve herself and deserve the honor--and he would get his jollies watching her struggle while sabotaging her efforts. All she could see was that she was in a world of hatred.

The situation is after an argument where this issue became clear, James struck her and she took off running. She ran for a long time while going through one frenzied and painful insight after another. It's a long sequence, but here is the end.

No exit—her shreds of awareness were saying, beating it into the pavements in the sound of her steps—no exit … no refuge … no signals … no way to tell destruction from safety, or enemy from friend.… Like that dog she had heard about, she thought … somebody's dog in somebody's laboratory … the dog who got his signals switched on him, and saw no way to tell satisfaction from torture, saw food changed to beatings and beatings to food, saw his eyes and ears deceiving him and his judgment futile and his consciousness impotent in a shifting, swimming, shapeless world—and gave up, refusing to eat at that price or to live in a world of that kind.… was the only conscious word in her brain—no!—no!—no!—not your way, not your world—even if this "no" is all that's to be left of mine!

It was in the darkest hour of the night, in an alley among wharfs and warehouses that the social worker saw her. The social worker was a woman whose gray face and gray coat blended with the walls of the district. She saw a young girl wearing a suit too smart and expensive for the neighborhood, with no hat, no purse, with a broken heel, disheveled hair and a bruise at the corner of her mouth, a girl staggering blindly, not knowing sidewalks from pavements. The street was only a narrow crack between the sheer, blank walls of storage structures, but a ray of light fell through a fog dank with the odor of rotting water; a stone parapet ended the street on the edge of a vast black hole merging river and sky.

The social worker approached her and asked severely, "Are you in trouble?"—and saw one wary eye, the other hidden by a lock of hair, and the face of a wild creature who has forgotten the sound of human voices, but listens as to a distant echo, with suspicion, yet almost with hope.

The social worker seized her arm. "It's a disgrace to come to such a state… if you society girls had something to do besides indulging your desires and chasing pleasures, you wouldn't be wandering, drunk as a tramp, at this hour of the night… if you stopped living for your own enjoyment, stopped thinking of yourself and found some higher—"

Then the girl screamed—and the scream went beating against the blank walls of the street as in a chamber of torture, an animal scream of terror. She tore her arm loose and sprang back, then screamed in inarticulate sounds:

"No! No! Not your kind of world!"

Then she ran, ran by the sudden propulsion of a burst of power, the power of a creature running for its life, she ran straight down the street that ended at the river—and in a single streak of speed, with no break, no moment of doubt, with full consciousness of acting in self-preservation, she kept running till the parapet barred her way and, not stopping, went over into space.

A lot of minor characters killed themselves in AS, too. Even her most perfect man, John Galt, said he would kill himself under the right conditions (if Dagny were tortured to get him to do something):

... if they get the slightest suspicion of what we are to each other, they will have you on a torture rack—I mean, physical torture—before my eyes, in less than a week. I am not going to wait for that. At the first mention of a threat to you, I will kill myself and stop them right there.

He said it without emphasis, in the same impersonal tone of practical calculation as the rest. She knew that he meant it and that he was right to mean it: she saw in what manner she alone had the power to succeed at destroying him, where all the power of his enemies would fail. He saw the look of stillness in her eyes, a look of understanding and of horror. He nodded, with a faint smile.

"I don't have to tell you," he said, "that if I do it, it won't be an act of self-sacrifice. I do not care to live on their terms, I do not care to obey them and I do not care to see you enduring a drawnout murder. There will be no values for me to seek after that—and I do not care to exist without values.

I could probably find other stuff... OK one last one. Here is my favorite quote by Rand on suicide. Hank Rearden is talking to government people in AS:

There is no such thing as a temporary suicide.

I believe suicide is vastly more complicated than Rand presented, but I also believe she found some uncommon nuances that ring true.

But despite these portrayals, Rand was fiercely committed to living.

Wouldn't it be something to feel what she did in all her passion and complexity--even if just for a moment?

Michael