Help with Depression

[theandresanchez]

Hello,

I'm suffering from a fairly serious depression, and have been for many years (since mid childhood, as far as I can tell). It is very debilitating. I have looked for a solution, but did not find it. My study has reached the conclusion that the only means by which depression can be cured is by self-deception, something which psychology has termed "Terror Management", or the use of symbols to evade awareness of death and the anxiety and fear this brings. I am open minded in the sense that I don't simply assume things to be false, and other people to be wrong, but everyone who promises a solution seemed delusional upon closer inspection. I'm sure they have the capacity to bring others into their delusion, and in doing this give them a certain sense of relief, but that's not enough for me. And yes, that includes "doctors".

My problem as I see it is this: it seems to me that life is hopeless and action is futile. I cannot escape death. Rand is dead. I am a victim in a universe that is fundamentally hostile, I'm unsafe in the world. At first I was just concerned with politics, but as I grew older I realized this was not a "social" problem, but a metaphysical one.

I need help. From people who are actually rational, and won't simply tell me to "meditate" and "let go of the Ego" or any other such nonsense.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Andre

[Rich Engle]

Hello,

I'm suffering from a fairly serious depression, and have been for many years (since mid childhood, as far as I can tell). It is very debilitating. I have looked for a solution, but did not find it. My study has reached the conclusion that the only means by which depression can be cured is by self-deception, something which psychology has termed "Terror Management", or the use of symbols to evade awareness of death and the anxiety and fear this brings. I am open minded in the sense that I don't simply assume things to be false, and other people to be wrong, but everyone who promises a solution seemed delusional upon closer inspection. I'm sure they have the capacity to bring others into their delusion, and in doing this give them a certain sense of relief, but that's not enough for me. And yes, that includes "doctors".

My problem as I see it is this: it seems to me that life is hopeless and action is futile. I cannot escape death. Rand is dead. I am a victim in a universe that is fundamentally hostile, I'm unsafe in the world. At first I was just concerned with politics, but as I grew older I realized this was not a "social" problem, but a metaphysical one.

I need help. From people who are actually rational, and won't simply tell me to "meditate" and "let go of the Ego" or any other such nonsense.

You need to see a good psychiatrist (not a psychologist). It could well be that you are dealing with a chemical imbalance, and require medication. This takes a good evaluation and sometimes you have to try different things.

That is one part of it. I realize that you might be very against using a med, with good reason--some of them don't work well for people and it takes time to find the fit. But usually, it is a mixture of meds and therapy.

I do not think you can always "think yourself out" of these things. You need to find out what is really going on, and in cases of heavy depression, you know, maybe "clinical depression," you are talking about health and psychology professionals.

I wish you well.

rde

[Rich Engle]

Actually, Andre, a clinical therapist is maybe good. I think you have to eliminate a lot of variables.

And the other thing I wanted to say about this is that often, strong people view their depression as a sign of weakness; like, they would feel it a sign of weakness if they were to take meds, even maybe just a little xanax or whatever.

I have a lot of close people in my life that struggle with this, and I have myself. I don't take meds but there have been times when I did.

I know there are some pros in the psych world around here, and maybe they can tell you more. The main thing is that it will be OK. You just have to figure out a path to get it off your back. It is a terrible feeling.

When you are in that box, you lose most of your efficacy. Things close in, it is a darkness. It is like all the beautiful things in life are invisible to you. It's like a vacuum.

Sometimes, it helps to just do something really different than what you are doing. Go see something uplifting and joyous. Flowers. Musicians. Comedy. Good food. Friends. Take a little bit of the remaining energy to try and get out of the funk. Hey, what have you got to lose? Remember what fun feels like?

rde

Edited July 21, 2011 by Rich Engle

[theandresanchez]

The main thing is that it will be OK.

Will it?

[BaalChatzaf]

Hello,

I'm suffering from a fairly serious depression, and have been for many years (since mid childhood, as far as I can tell). It is very debilitating. I have looked for a solution, but did not find it. My study has reached the conclusion that the only means by which depression can be cured is by self-deception, something which psychology has termed "Terror Management", or the use of symbols to evade awareness of death and the anxiety and fear this brings. I am open minded in the sense that I don't simply assume things to be false, and other people to be wrong, but everyone who promises a solution seemed delusional upon closer inspection. I'm sure they have the capacity to bring others into their delusion, and in doing this give them a certain sense of relief, but that's not enough for me. And yes, that includes "doctors".

My problem as I see it is this: it seems to me that life is hopeless and action is futile. I cannot escape death. Rand is dead. I am a victim in a universe that is fundamentally hostile, I'm unsafe in the world. At first I was just concerned with politics, but as I grew older I realized this was not a "social" problem, but a metaphysical one.

I need help. From people who are actually rational, and won't simply tell me to "meditate" and "let go of the Ego" or any other such nonsense.

Been there, done that. I found that regular physical exercise helps. And if you in a funk, FORCE YOURSELF to exercise. The fact that you overcame inertia is helpful in and of itself.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited July 21, 2011 by BaalChatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Depressive thinking can cause depression. I found that monitoring my thoughts for negative thinking and training myself not to do that unless I expected a positive result from same helped considerably. This likely won't be enough, but can give you a big leg up. It won't be easy to change what I call a negative default mind set, but such a negative attitude is self-re-enforcing and one chases one's own tail into a deeper and deeper funk.

--Brant

[Dennis Hardin]

Your profoundly negative world-view is clearly the issue. Focusing on the inevitability of death is a dead-end and a good way to paralyze yourself. So what if life eventually ends? Why would you want to pass on the wonderful opportunity for life and happiness that has been given to you?

You would be well advised to look for a psychotherapist (regardless of their specific license) who specializes in cognitive-behavioral therapy. CBT has been shown to be particularly effective with depression. The whole purpose of it is to change your negative thinking patterns and help you think more positively and clearly.

If you have medical insurance, you can often obtain a behavioral health referral. If not, you will have to pay out-of-pocket. In either case, you need to take action now. When you interview a prospective therapist over the phone, simply ask if they are experienced with CBT (or REBT—rational emotive behavioral therapy, Albert Ellis’s version of CBT—which is very similar). Do not simply choose a therapist randomly. Look for expertise with CBT or REBT.

Incidentally, there are a lot of similarities between cognitive behavioral techniques and Objectivist epistemology/psychology. For instance, the CBT tool-kit includes the so-called “downward arrow” technique. It is designed to help clients discover the deeper thoughts which underlie their conscious thinking. In other words, to help you “check your premises.”

Asking a therapist if he/she knows what the "downward arrow" technique is, might be a good way to test their expertise with CBT.

Do it now. It will only get worse if you fail to act.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Dennis Hardin

[Brant Gaede]

The main thing is that it will be OK.

Will it?

You are using the Jeopardy format here.

--Brant

[caroljane]

The main thing is that it will be OK.

Will it?

You are using the Jeopardy format here.

--Brant

Serious, clinical depression is a physical medical problem in which the brain receptors stop connecting properly, and in most cases can be righted with proper medication. Mercifully psychoparmacology has progressed since WWII, restoring people to themselves who would otherwise be lost in despair.

Note that I say in most cases. There are untreatable depressions I know. But Andre, I hope yours is not one of those.

One analogy I have heard is that of a broken leg. You can rest it, will yourself to drag it around, and eventually it will knit up in some fashion and you will function, likely with a limp. Or you can go to the hospital and get it set in a cast.

First aid first, imo. If meds can help, let them.

[Rich Engle]

The main thing is that it will be OK.

Will it?

Yes, it will. You are just looking down the wrong end of the telescope. This sounds like a bromide, but it really does just come down to a matter of perspective. You can see something, some feeling, that is surrounding, encompassing you. That is only one way of seeing. It is definitely not objective reality, it is subjective. If you want to get into those terms. There is always beauty, there is always hope.

I do simple things to fix myself, these days--I remind myself of what is. You know, you can go for days and days, self-consumed, and what do you do (or not do)? You miss the joy, the beauty. You become separated.

It is still there, regardless of how you feel about it. It will be there and look gorgeous. You won't stop it from being naturally beautiful. So, you can take it (which it gives you for free) or leave it (and be a miserable bastard). Simple choice, no?

r

It'll Be Ah-Raght.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Andre,

Welcome to OL.

I wish I could tell you what the cure to death is, but I don't have one. And from the looks of things, I'm not going to get one and I don't have a choice about that. (This actually irks me, but that's another story.)

I do have this choice, though. I can make do with what I've got while I've got it. Or I can choose to not value it.

In my case, I almost lost it and gave up (long story with drug and alcohol addictions), but I came back. After a long torturous journey, I came to the following conclusion: rather than cuss my lack of options, I decided to take the best one available and try to live a good life. So far, I haven't regretted it and I take comfort in the fact that, at this very moment, I know when the day comes for it all to be over for me, at least I will have used well what I did have.

I read somewhere that seeking activities that cause me to feel enthusiasm and excitement is far better than seeking happiness. When I do that, it actually works pretty good at bringing me peace of mind at night.

I don't know enough about your situation to say more. I hope these sketchy comments about my experience helped. Whether they did or not, though, I wish you well.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

Your profoundly negative world-view is clearly the issue. Focusing on the inevitability of death is a dead-end and a good way to paralyze yourself. So what if life eventually ends? Why would you want to pass on the wonderful opportunity for life and happiness that has been given to you?

You would be well advised to look for a psychotherapist (regardless of their specific license) who specializes in cognitive-behavioral therapy. CBT has been shown to be particularly effective with depression. The whole purpose of it is to change your negative thinking patterns and help you think more positively and clearly.

If you have medical insurance, you can often obtain a behavioral health referral. If not, you will have to pay out-of-pocket. In either case, you need to take action now. When you interview a prospective therapist over the phone, simply ask if they are experienced with CBT (or REBT—rational emotive behavioral therapy, Albert Ellis’s version of CBT—which is very similar). Do not simply choose a therapist randomly. Look for expertise with CBT or REBT.

Incidentally, there are a lot of similarities between cognitive behavioral techniques and Objectivist epistemology/psychology. For instance, the CBT tool-kit includes the so-called “downward arrow” technique. It is designed to help clients discover the deeper thoughts which underlie their conscious thinking. In other words, to help you “check your premises.”

Asking a therapist if he/she knows what the "downward arrow" technique is, might be a good way to test their expertise with CBT.

Do it now. It will only get worse if you fail to act.

I was hoping you would clock in on this one, Dennis. That's good! I hope he listens to you.

rde

[theandresanchez]

So what if life eventually ends?

I don't understand this.

[Rich Engle]

I wish they hadn't spelled "bliss" wrong but this will do.

[theandresanchez]

First aid first, imo. If meds can help, let them.

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

[Rich Engle]

First aid first, imo. If meds can help, let them.

For the record, I have been to a doctor recently. He asked for some tests and gave me some meds. I have the impression that this is futile, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I think just do what he says. The main thing is to get the edge off. You have to go back to seeing through your true eyes. Hey, you know the old "definition of insanity" joke--doing the same things over and expecting different results.

Back down, chill, try new things. It will break, if you let it.

I had never considered dark thoughts in my whole life. Surely (by example only, and I am hesitant to bring it up), I had never considered suicide as an option. Oh, the depression was deep, and I didn't even get that because normally I am a real happy bastard.

But it came on me, during bad times. One day I realized that I was seriously thinking about walking into the frozen, snow-covered woods, sitting on a tree, and just letting myself die.

What saved me was, well, one thing was how many people were in my life. That I better practice what I preach. But, I was that close, I had truly given up. I couldn't leave people thinking that was my solution, which, in a way, is a very selfish one (in the bad sense of that word). So, I sucked it up, fixed what at that time was a very dangerous situation, came down here, and changed my life.

And I did that. So I know you can too. I have more extreme examples if you really need them. There's always worse.

You have to be strong, and really believe in what you believe.

Listen to Dennis, and for sure listen to Michael--Mike knows. His story is quite the pipper. For that matter, listen to all of us. Daunce came in right away on this, you notice. That's pretty cool, isn't it?

Hang in,

rde

Edited July 21, 2011 by Rich Engle

[Brant Gaede]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

[Dennis Hardin]

So what if life eventually ends?

I don't understand this.

If you insist on focusing intellectually on the fact of death, you will never “understand.” You can only appreciate life by getting out there and living it. Once you experience some positive aspects of life, death begins to seem a lot less significant.

For each of us, the world begins when we are born and ends when we die.

And for each of us, what happens in between is all that matters. And, in most cases, almost entirely our choice.

[Rich Engle]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Boy, ain't that true. "Victim mentality," right? Negative thinking is a downward spiral. And it is so attractive; it calls like a siren-sound.

You're made of 13 billion year old stardust, you are the universe contemplating Itself, and then you get that shit. Oh, lovely!

Sometimes I get it down to the basic old struggle between good and evil. I think, maybe that's what that allegory was. You can look at stuff like, oh, Hell, "Dante's Inferno" and see the struggle. <--that was a little creepy, I shouldn't have done that maybe.

In any event, Andre, you have this time here, and there will never be another one like it for your soul. Make hay while the sun shines, and it does (for the moment).

Have we cheered you up yet?

That's one thing OL has in terms of capabilities. You won't see this kind of stuff on the other sites. We lay down the heat, baby. We actually help each other. Now that is some bad-ass shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd4VSkj0Wks

[Rich Engle]

Now, you can't help laughing when you see stuff like this, right? I mean, really. Step One: slap a smile on your face or we will kill you. Step Two: repeat step one, as needed--lather, rinse, repeat.

rde

Todays Word is ". . .heh."

Edited July 21, 2011 by Rich Engle

[Brant Gaede]

To train oneself out of unnecessary and therefore destructive negative thinking, one might make a sign, even frame and hang it in one's home, reminding one of that task. For instance: "Think up, not down"--"POS"--"NEG"--etc. That sort of thing.

--Brant

[theandresanchez]

To train oneself out of unnecessary and therefore destructive negative thinking, one might make a sign, even frame and hang it in one's home, reminding one of that task. For instance: "Think up, not down"--"POS"--"NEG"--etc. That sort of thing.

--Brant

Unnecessary? Destructive? If I am doomed for death, such terms are meaningless. The option to live does not seem to be on the table.

[theandresanchez]

Now, you can't help laughing when you see stuff like this, right? I mean, really. Step One: slap a smile on your face or we will kill you. Step Two: repeat step one, as needed--lather, rinse, repeat.

Thank you. I have tried humour and fiction in general. I have also tried hiding from the world and playing games instead. I have tried exercise and music. I have tried all sorts of pleasurable activities, I have tried immersing myself in work projects. The pleasure or activity can be distracting and "fun" for a short time, but it wears off, and it can start to feel painful. I feel the pressure of aging, this dual sense of urgency to live life to the fullest, and futility in trying.

[Brant Gaede]

To train oneself out of unnecessary and therefore destructive negative thinking, one might make a sign, even frame and hang it in one's home, reminding one of that task. For instance: "Think up, not down"--"POS"--"NEG"--etc. That sort of thing.

--Brant

Unnecessary? Destructive? If I am doomed for death, such terms are meaningless. The option to live does not seem to be on the table.

If you could live 1000 years you'd still be "doomed for death." Your problem isn't dying, it's living. It's obvious, however, that you need professional help with this depression of yours.

--Brant

[algernonsidney]

Andre,

I am sorry to see that you came here looking for sympathy. It looks like Michael is the only one capable of providing any so far, and I hope I can do that for you as well.

I came to the Objectivist movement back in 1995 with the same kind of questions. I got the same kind of self-righteous, pure hatred that you are getting now. Don't try to tell me that Objectivists are benevolent.

Asking Objectivists for help with a problem like this is asking a suicide bomber to rebuild the engine of your car. Of course, you didn't know this. Neither did I. It does make me wonder why still I bother coming here though.

Depression is not a choice. Michael's advice on doing something that makes you happy is good. You may find that somewhere or with some type of activity or with some type of person. It might be somewhere that you are not expecting to look as well.

I'm sending you my Facebook page.