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Alright its been a long time but I have been thinking about this and talking about it with a friend, so I thought I would post a little now and then post more on it when I get off work. I am a great lover of Science Fiction and Fantasy, in science fiction books there tends to crop up what I will term the uterine replicator, of the books which I have read which mention this device only John Ringo in his "There will be Dragons" seems to understand the true possible impact of such a device. Yet even he only go so far.

Imagine a world where every (or nearly every) woman has all of her egg's removed and stored, a world in which for one or two hundred dollars you could gestate a fetus outside of the human body. On a societal level over night sex would become divorced from procreation (which in many peoples minds it's still connected). My friend who is an objectivist was blown away when I pointed this out to him, he then asked me "I can see how ethically Heterosexuality is better than Homosexuality on some levels, because heterosexuality is required for the continuation of Humanity. This though... What becomes the difference?"

There is in fact a difference which I will address when I get off work tonight, but something this revolutionary would change the meaning of sex universally.

Think about it.

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It would actively test how deeply our genetic programming for sexuality actually runs. On the one hand, it seems patently obvious that a mere social convention will not change everyone overnight. (Even now, people who cannot have children - aged; infertile; sterile - maintain their heterosexuality.) Over several generations, we might see dramatic shifts in behavior. Genetic change may never happen.

As J. Neil Schulman just passed through recently, I will point again to his Rainbow Cadenza. In that world, genetic preferential selection for boys over girls led to a marked imbalance. The role and status of women became extreme in both directions: highly valued; and yet objectified via institutions of mandatory prostitution and legal rape.

As a minor thread, in Huxley's Brave New World, where reproduction was mechanized some females were sterile ("free martins") but he did not pursue that deeply and behaviorly, they seemed integrated among other females. So, that was not explored. In fact, it is interesting that Huxley completely ignored any behavioral changes in the sexes or their sexuality despite the mechanized reproduction.

In Cordwainer Smith's universe, "The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal" reveals a world in which some stellar radiation made femaleness carcinogenic. The all-male planet developed artificial reproduction, and social norms to go with it. It was a weird place.

Edited by Michael E. Marotta
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There is in fact a difference which I will address when I get off work tonight, but something this revolutionary would change the meaning of sex universally.

I eagerly await, after you have worked, and of course, considered deeply.

Changing the meaning of sex universally.

K.

Why fuck with perfection? That would be one thing.

I figure you are either having too much of it, or too little. Balance is very important!

I suppose boredom could be a possibility, but if so, that would be your fault, I think.

Power tools?

rde

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Michael E. Marotta

In the world of BNW I will remind you that a Heterosexual boy was considered abnormal. I will have to read Rainbow Cadenza before I can comment.

______________________

First I am going to start from the premise that there is a fundamental difference between male and female. there is a proven difference in the way the brain works ( http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/men-women-different-brains.htm ) beyond this there are also hormonal differences which affect thinking and behavior. While he makes some stretches of the imagination Leonard Sax does make some good observations in "Why Gender Matters." about the differences in males and females.

I should here upfront mention that I do not believe sexuality is driven by some deterministic demon coded into our DNA, and that there is very little evidence to prove this claim. I also do not believe that MOST people consciously choose their sexuality.

When not if the uterine replicator (UR from here on) becomes common technology it will instantly do away with moral question of abortion, women will not need to take time off of work because they are pregnant, they will not need to worry about having retarded children, or children with genetic mutations. Further while it is currently true that a woman who wants a child can for the most part have one so long as she has a sperm donor, it will be true with the uterine replicator that men will only need an egg donor. It will (and this is my speculation) also mean a drop in the birth rate.

While there will be outrage from the older community among the younger community this will completely divorce sex from procreation and it will make sex entirely recreational. The current society while it does have a high degree of recreational sex still connects having sex with the potential for children, this is purely psychological. Bisexuality especially among youth tend from a historic prospective to be the norm. Most sexual and gender boundaries are (I assume most here will agree) arbitrary, when considered from a global/historic perspective. I believe the addition of the of the UR will cause a fundamental questioning of the sexuality.

Sex is a physical capacity, but its exercise is determined by man’s mind—by his choice of values, held consciously or subconsciously. To a rational man, sex is an expression of self-esteem—a celebration of himself and of existence. To the man who lacks self-esteem, sex is an attempt to fake it, to acquire its momentary illusion.

Romantic love, in the full sense of the term, is an emotion possible only to the man (or woman) of unbreached self-esteem: it is his response to his own highest values in the person of another—an integrated response of mind and body, of love and sexual desire. Such a man (or woman) is incapable of experiencing a sexual desire divorced from spiritual values.

The Voice of Reason “Of Living Death,”54

To prevent this thread from being too long draw your own conclusions from the perspective above.

With some of the reading I have done over the last few months it is my conclusion that "Bisexuality" tending towards Heterosexuality will be the norm (women are still genetically the other half). I say this while I myself am now Bisexual tending towards Homosexual (But that's a different story.)

For those who have read my previous posts I still hold that Men who act like women and women who act like men are an abomination.

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I should here upfront mention that I do not believe sexuality is driven by some deterministic demon coded into our DNA, and that there is very little evidence to prove this claim. I also do not believe that MOST people consciously choose their sexuality.

For those who have read my previous posts I still hold that Men who act like women and women who act like men are an abomination.

Hello Equality.

An abomination against what? or, Whom?

Is your conclusion a neo-conservative one, or based on Ayn Rand's thoughts on gender?

If the first, it is contradictory to your early statements.

If Rand, she did get this partially wrong I think; her knowledge at that time was limited.

We now know a vast amount more about the brain and the nature of sexuality.

The only 'abomination' I bother about is against oneself.

Tony

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Imagine a world where every (or nearly every) woman has all of her egg's removed and stored, a world in which for one or two hundred dollars you could gestate a fetus outside of the human body.

Keep in mind that many women enjoy pregnancy as a wonderful personal experience.

[Equality quoting from The Voice of Reason]

Sex is a physical capacity, but its exercise is determined by man’s mind—by his choice of values, held consciously or subconsciously.

But isn't it hormones which determine this "exercise" far more than the "choice of values? ;)

To a rational man, sex is an expression of self-esteem—a celebration of himself and of existence.

I suppose most women would prefer a man here who passionately celebrates them and their existence. :)

Romantic love, in the full sense of the term, is an emotion possible only to the man (or woman) of unbreached self-esteem:

it is his response to his own highest values in the person of another—an integrated response of mind and body, of love and sexual desire. Such a man (or woman) is incapable of experiencing a sexual desire divorced from spiritual values.

The Voice of Reason “Of Living Death,”54

But do these assertions about "romantic love" conform to reality?

Most often people who experience the stage of romantic love behave quite irrationally, idealizing the the other person from a rose-colored glasses perspective.

Romantic love also makes no difference between people of high and low self-esteem; it can affect them all.

This is not surprising - after all, it's nature's little trick to ensure procreation. ;)

What attracted Rand to the term romantic was obviously the exaltation connoted with it, the idealistic yearning for the noble and the sublime.

I think it was Barbara Branden who wrote that Ayn Rand never stopped loving Cyrus, the romantic and brave hero of the stories she had read as a child.

All her later fictional heroes were incarnations of Cyrus, and as for her own life, she projected Cyrus into Leo, her first love, and later into Nathaniel Branden.

Edited by Xray
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Imagine a world where every (or nearly every) woman has all of her egg's removed and stored, a world in which for one or two hundred dollars you could gestate a fetus outside of the human body.

Keep in mind that many women enjoy pregnancy as a wonderful personal experience.

This statement assumes that the technology will not exist to create a "sympathy" between the mother and child. "Honey the baby is kicking"

Romantic love, in the full sense of the term, is an emotion possible only to the man (or woman) of unbreached self-esteem:

it is his response to his own highest values in the person of another—an integrated response of mind and body, of love and sexual desire. Such a man (or woman) is incapable of experiencing a sexual desire divorced from spiritual values.

The Voice of Reason “Of Living Death,”54

But do these assertions about "romantic love" conform to reality?

Most often people who experience the stage of romantic love behave quite irrationally, idealizing the the other person from a rose-colored glases perspective.

Romantic love also makes no difference between people of high and low self-esteem; it can affect them all.

This is not surprising - after all, it's nature's little trick to ensure procreation. ;)

Most people who experience romantic love are irrational and intentionally self deluding. Emotions are not a means of perception but a response, they can either be True (a proper response) or False (an improper response). From personal experience emotions can be reprogrammed, thus i someone experiences a False emotional response (such as a phobia) they can change their response to a True response. In the same way if a person has a False Romantic feeling, say towards someone who is destructive towards them, they can change this to a True response if they so choose.

What attracted Rand to the term romantic was obviously the exaltation connoted with it, the idealistic yearning for the noble and the sublime.

I think it was Barbara Branden who wrote that Ayn Rand never stopped loving Cyrus, the romantic and brave hero of the stories she had read as a child.

All her later fictional heroes were incarnations of Cyrus, and as for her own life, she projected Cyrus into Leo, her first love, and later into Nathaniel Branden.

And this statement proves the above point.

Hello Equality.

An abomination against what? or, Whom?

Is your conclusion a neo-conservative one, or based on Ayn Rand's thoughts on gender?

If the first, it is contradictory to your early statements.

If Rand, she did get this partially wrong I think; her knowledge at that time was limited.

We now know a vast amount more about the brain and the nature of sexuality.

The only 'abomination' I bother about is against oneself.

Tony

My conclusion is my own (i have held this since my very late pre-teen years when I first realized I was gay though as i stated above I have repositioned myself) and is reinforced by Rand. It is true that we know more than Rand did in her time, however we know less than people pretend. Everything I have read about the genetic link with homosexuality reminds me of the State Sciences Institutes condemnation of rearden metal. Right now the current situation with the gay genetic crowd is a conclusion looking for a justification. This is not to say that there are not some men/women born with hormonal imbalances, however this is an imbalance and it does not encompass the majority which is a chosen behavior. These imbalances can be corrected with hormonal treatments. There is also the even rarer case of the third gender someone born with three chromosomes, I hold this in a completely different class however and it is not subsumed by this conversation.

The abomination is someone trying to fake reality, a man trying to be a woman or a woman trying to be a man is on the same level as a human trying to be a dog.

My sexuality in my younger years (pre-teens to late teens) was not chosen, that is to say that it was thrust upon me by events which happened early in my childhood. However throughout my pre-teens and teens I had sex with females as well as males. In my late pre-teens I was solely homosexual yet i was capable of and did have sex with females up until 18. This would lead some to conclude that I was really bisexual, however this is a superficial understanding of sexuality. I had NO romantic attachment to any female I had sexual relations with at that time, none. This next part is hard to say without going on for pages so try to understand what I mean. When "I" became "me" (when I discovered self if that helps) I came to the understanding that sexuality was a choice, but most people make it subconsciously. I did not choose to change my sexuality from homosexual to heterosexual because I had yet to meet a woman whom I could have a relationship who met my values, added to this i knew males who were close to my values. I have romantic feelings towards my best friend and he(Very heterosexual) has semi-romantic feeling towards me.

Given my own long and hard path of Ego I have a first hand understanding of the development of a "personality" and of sexuality.

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The abomination is someone trying to fake reality, a man trying to be a woman or a woman trying to be a man is on the same level as a human trying to be a dog.

If these people have the genuine feeling that they were born into the wrong gender, this is not faking reality. For the reality they face is that they feel unhappy and burdended with their 'official' gender. Some opt for operations to change this.

Edited by Xray
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My sexuality in my younger years (pre-teens to late teens) was not chosen, that is to say that it was thrust upon me by events which happened early in my childhood. However throughout my pre-teens and teens I had sex with females as well as males.

WTF!?!? You were having sex as a pre-teen? And you make it sound like you did it a lot. I didn’t even get this far:

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Equality, if I read your post correctly, you were forced to have sex when you were a child. That is the only abomination I can identify here.

That's where I was at with it.

And if if was so traumatic, there is little comfort to be had, other, maybe, than thinking about all the people that went through even worse; and they are there. That you survive alone is sufficient. You will dwell. And then you will stop dwelling, gradually. It will come back just when you thought it left. But always better if you work at it.

rde

Edited by Rich Engle
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The abomination is someone trying to fake reality, a man trying to be a woman or a woman trying to be a man is on the same level as a human trying to be a dog.

If these people have the genuine feeling that they were born into the wrong gender, this is not faking reality. For the reality they face is that they feel unhappy and burdended with their 'official' gender. Some opt for operations to change this.

Feelings are not a means of cognition, if someone feels like they should have been born a German shepard we refer to the as deranged and emotionally disturbed. We do not coddle them and try to make them feel like it's okay going around acting like a dog. Tue reality is you are born male or you are born female, in some rare cases some are born to the third gender. It is not okay to fake reality and pretend your something your not.

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My sexuality in my younger years (pre-teens to late teens) was not chosen, that is to say that it was thrust upon me by events which happened early in my childhood. However throughout my pre-teens and teens I had sex with females as well as males.

WTF!?!? You were having sex as a pre-teen? And you make it sound like you did it a lot. I didn’t even get this far:

Between the ages of 6 and 10 I had sex with 9 boys and 4 girls only one of whom was significantly older than I, and it was not he who initiated it. from the age of 11 to 17 my sexual relationships exploded and quite frankly I am very lucky be be alive, and to not have a disease. When I was 21 I did an exercise with a friend to try and remember how many people I had sex with over the course of my life up to that time. As best I could remember it ended up being something like 15 girls and 48 guys with most of those being had between 11-17.

Now most people would assume that I was simply a sex addict, and that would be an accurate description however the sex addiction was a symptom of a much bigger problem. before I was 12 it was all fun and games, it was kept within a very tight circle. However at age twelve I lost my mind (literally), I was a very alone, very scared little boy who could not figure out why the world had suddenly gone mad. I was an EXTREMELY altruistic person as a child, my family (which at the time consisted of 1 sister and 1 brother) always had very large holidays especially Christmas, I refused to ask for anything for Christmas because it cost too much. I was also extremely non violent, my little brother would beat me up constantly and I would always blame it on the fact that i knew he had ADHD and it was my fault for saying something to anger him, even if i didnt understand why something angered him(I was 12 the first time I hit him). Another more relevant example as to something which pushed me towards madness, my family was very poor, not the three TV's, 2 cars, a PlayStation and 50 video games normal American kind of poor, I mean really poor, can't afford to put food on the table, kind of poor. I felt extremely responsible for my family even as a kid, my dad being a dead beat it was my "Duty" to carry out the tasks of the man of the house. At the time it was my mom, my brother, and myself. I would go two and sometimes three days without eating to make sure my brother and mother could eat (my sister had moved out by this time). I would work under the table at a plastics shop and sneak the money into my mothers purse so she wouldnt feel bad or obligated to pay me back. None of that pushed me towards madness, what did push me towards madness was the fact that I was treated like a criminal, while my brother who is 18 months younger than I was out getting stoned and drunk, while he was out until 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning, I who was always home on time, who always did as I was told, who went days without eating, who worked under the table to feed his family, I was treated like a criminal. I was a well who had been sucked dry and people kept coming back for more. I had no one I could talk to, no one i could relate to. The more I lived up to the Altruistic moral code the more I got shit on, I was a good person, who did good things, so why was i treated like a criminal, why did everyone hate me, why did the world not work the way I was always told it worked.

I cracked, I went insane, I suffered extreme paranoia (going so far as to unscrewing every light socket, and wall plug, and ceiling fan to to check for bugs before I pissed {no joke}). I had a series of therapists who got off on playing with my head. I was sent to a (Shutter) "treatment facility" where it was against the rules to touch anybody, no high fives, no handshakes, no hugs, NO contact. Was I sent off by my mom to the treatment facility for being insane? No, I was to paranoid and way to smart for my own good, so I kept my insanity secret. Picture it in your head, here you are, 14 already isolated, emotionally distraught, you cant understand why your treated like a criminal, you already have sever abandonment issues, then your dropped into a place which has COMPLETE control over everything, and a place in which you have NO human contact, think a less intense sensory deprivation. You cant even take a piss without permission, you own nothing, what you have is at "their" pleasure. Your "house mates" (6 to a house) are ruled by a tyrant who is given complete reign by the staff, this is someone who cataloged your every sin and does things way worse than you but tells you all the time "If I get terminated I am taking all of you with me.". Then (and this is real sweet) because your smart the therapist begins looking up new words before every session trying to catch you off guard and show you how much smarter than you she is, the only problem is you know the dictionary definition of every word she uses. She then authorizes the staff to start belittling your intelligence. If you say something, do they look it up to see if your right, nope your wrong, no 14/15 year old can be that smart. Oh and on top of this because your such a failure you KNOW your damned to hell forever, and you are extremely suicidal, but you cant commit suicide because that means "They" (still not sure who they are) win. Now the real icing on the cake is this: You know, for a fact, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you are insane, out of your mind, off the wall, crazy. You know this. There is just one little tiny problem, "Just because your paranoid doesnt mean they arnt out to get you". You know your nuts, you also know that part (and only part) of that being nuts is paranoia, you also know that some people really are out to get you. Now distinguish reality, from the phantoms of your own mind.

Ten months I went without touching a soul. Zero human contact, in a hell I could not escape, always in trouble. My stereo which they let me borrow from myself when I first got there taken away, my cloths taken from my, socks, underwear, pictures, all you get is a pillow, sheets, and a blanket. Four months, with nothing to my name, they literally took everything from me, no TV, no Radio, I couldnt even watch other people play video games, no board games, oh but I was allowed to have a bible, if I sat at the table with it, but I couldnt have it in my own room. And this four months of loosing everything wasnt given in one lump, it was given for two or three weeks, then I got two or three days from getting my stuff back and get in trouble for... forgetting to take out the trash... for a piece of food left on a fork i said i cleaned... for... The games were very elaborate too. (not even mentioning the stuff the room mates did.) Also their programing is so complete that while it is true you go to a public school with "normal kids" you keep the rules completely, NO TOUCHING. Then something even worse happens. you think you know abandonment, you think you know what it is like to be alone, then they tell you that its not working out, so they are going to move you to another facility. You hate the staff, you hate your roommates, you hate everything about the place you are in, it is hell, but thats okay because you deserve hell, but now they tell you they are going to move you to another facility. you know what this means, the psychotic bitch therapist doesnt want to tarnish her record so she has you moved to the care of another related home so that you can be terminated their. And on the same day you hear this, within hours of finding this out, your mother who does come to see you every two or three weeks, tells you she is moving to another state and not taking you with her. Devastation. After ten months you break a second time. that night you have sex with the guy you share a room with, he has been trying to get you to have sex with him for a few months now, but you are too scared, but now he says three words and your resistance breaks. he says "I love you." You feel used, and like shit after. and worse you broke the rules.

The next morning before you are moved, you sit at the kitchen table and you try to figure out what is real. You are told sometimes in explicit sometimes in implicit ways, morality is subjective, reality is not real, etc. You no longer care if they win, you write. the next three hours will determine the rest of your life, over the course of three hours and fifteen pages you write to determine weather or not you will commit suicide. What will determine if you will commit suicide? Is it a letter? no, is it a weighing of how shitty everything is against the good in your life? no. It is a thesis on the nature of truth, and on the nature of reality which will determine the rest of your life, no matter how long, or how short that life may continue to be. If reality, if truth is subjective, than you will kill yourself, because if reality is subjective than it doesnt matter anyways, if it is not, you will devote the rest of your life to truth. After three hours and 15 pages I discovered Reality was not subjective, that there was such a thing as truth, and Truth became the God I gave my life to.

I still stumbled around blindly trying to find out exactly what it meant to have truth as my God. My life changed over night, but i did not. I began having lots and lots more sex after that mistake of a night, I kept trying to find love in sex, "The man who despises himself tries to gain self-esteem from sexual adventures—which can’t be done, because sex is not the cause, but an effect and an expression of a man’s sense of his own value . . .".

Now one may ask why I have shared all of this. I tend to be a very private individual, and have related most of the above to only three people(there is much more which for now I will keep private). Part of what allowed me to share this is the anonymity of the internet, however that is not why i shared what i have. I have been mad, I have pulled myself out of the dark pit, nails torn and bleeding, my body broken, beaten, and bruised, and alone. My journey to reason long, and hard fought. And thus I am amazed when people who claim to be rational individuals, say that because someone "Feels" they should have been born a different gender, this is reason. I am amazed that people who claim to be rational refuse to make moral judgements and treat the world as a subjective place. While it is true that some values are subjective (the liking of steak for example), there are most certainly objective values (such as life, and reality). In the words of Ayn Rand "Judge and prepare to be judged."

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My sexuality in my younger years (pre-teens to late teens) was not chosen, that is to say that it was thrust upon me by events which happened early in my childhood. However throughout my pre-teens and teens I had sex with females as well as males.

WTF!?!? You were having sex as a pre-teen? And you make it sound like you did it a lot. I didn't even get this far:

Between the ages of 6 and 10 I had sex with 9 boys and 4 girls only one of whom was significantly older than I, and it was not he who initiated it. from the age of 11 to 17 my sexual relationships exploded and quite frankly I am very lucky be be alive, and to not have a disease. When I was 21 I did an exercise with a friend to try and remember how many people I had sex with over the course of my life up to that time. As best I could remember it ended up being something like 15 girls and 48 guys with most of those being had between 11-17.

Now most people would assume that I was simply a sex addict, and that would be an accurate description however the sex addiction was a symptom of a much bigger problem. before I was 12 it was all fun and games, it was kept within a very tight circle. However at age twelve I lost my mind (literally), I was a very alone, very scared little boy who could not figure out why the world had suddenly gone mad. I was an EXTREMELY altruistic person as a child, my family (which at the time consisted of 1 sister and 1 brother) always had very large holidays especially Christmas, I refused to ask for anything for Christmas because it cost too much. I was also extremely non violent, my little brother would beat me up constantly and I would always blame it on the fact that i knew he had ADHD and it was my fault for saying something to anger him, even if i didnt understand why something angered him(I was 12 the first time I hit him). Another more relevant example as to something which pushed me towards madness, my family was very poor, not the three TV's, 2 cars, a PlayStation and 50 video games normal American kind of poor, I mean really poor, can't afford to put food on the table, kind of poor. I felt extremely responsible for my family even as a kid, my dad being a dead beat it was my "Duty" to carry out the tasks of the man of the house. At the time it was my mom, my brother, and myself. I would go two and sometimes three days without eating to make sure my brother and mother could eat (my sister had moved out by this time). I would work under the table at a plastics shop and sneak the money into my mothers purse so she wouldnt feel bad or obligated to pay me back. None of that pushed me towards madness, what did push me towards madness was the fact that I was treated like a criminal, while my brother who is 18 months younger than I was out getting stoned and drunk, while he was out until 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning, I who was always home on time, who always did as I was told, who went days without eating, who worked under the table to feed his family, I was treated like a criminal. I was a well who had been sucked dry and people kept coming back for more. I had no one I could talk to, no one i could relate to. The more I lived up to the Altruistic moral code the more I got shit on, I was a good person, who did good things, so why was i treated like a criminal, why did everyone hate me, why did the world not work the way I was always told it worked.

I cracked, I went insane, I suffered extreme paranoia (going so far as to unscrewing every light socket, and wall plug, and ceiling fan to to check for bugs before I pissed {no joke}). I had a series of therapists who got off on playing with my head. I was sent to a (Shutter) "treatment facility" where it was against the rules to touch anybody, no high fives, no handshakes, no hugs, NO contact. Was I sent off by my mom to the treatment facility for being insane? No, I was to paranoid and way to smart for my own good, so I kept my insanity secret. Picture it in your head, here you are, 14 already isolated, emotionally distraught, you cant understand why your treated like a criminal, you already have sever abandonment issues, then your dropped into a place which has COMPLETE control over everything, and a place in which you have NO human contact, think a less intense sensory deprivation. You cant even take a piss without permission, you own nothing, what you have is at "their" pleasure. Your "house mates" (6 to a house) are ruled by a tyrant who is given complete reign by the staff, this is someone who cataloged your every sin and does things way worse than you but tells you all the time "If I get terminated I am taking all of you with me.". Then (and this is real sweet) because your smart the therapist begins looking up new words before every session trying to catch you off guard and show you how much smarter than you she is, the only problem is you know the dictionary definition of every word she uses. She then authorizes the staff to start belittling your intelligence. If you say something, do they look it up to see if your right, nope your wrong, no 14/15 year old can be that smart. Oh and on top of this because your such a failure you KNOW your damned to hell forever, and you are extremely suicidal, but you cant commit suicide because that means "They" (still not sure who they are) win. Now the real icing on the cake is this: You know, for a fact, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you are insane, out of your mind, off the wall, crazy. You know this. There is just one little tiny problem, "Just because your paranoid doesnt mean they arnt out to get you". You know your nuts, you also know that part (and only part) of that being nuts is paranoia, you also know that some people really are out to get you. Now distinguish reality, from the phantoms of your own mind.

Ten months I went without touching a soul. Zero human contact, in a hell I could not escape, always in trouble. My stereo which they let me borrow from myself when I first got there taken away, my cloths taken from my, socks, underwear, pictures, all you get is a pillow, sheets, and a blanket. Four months, with nothing to my name, they literally took everything from me, no TV, no Radio, I couldnt even watch other people play video games, no board games, oh but I was allowed to have a bible, if I sat at the table with it, but I couldnt have it in my own room. And this four months of loosing everything wasnt given in one lump, it was given for two or three weeks, then I got two or three days from getting my stuff back and get in trouble for... forgetting to take out the trash... for a piece of food left on a fork i said i cleaned... for... The games were very elaborate too. (not even mentioning the stuff the room mates did.) Also their programing is so complete that while it is true you go to a public school with "normal kids" you keep the rules completely, NO TOUCHING. Then something even worse happens. you think you know abandonment, you think you know what it is like to be alone, then they tell you that its not working out, so they are going to move you to another facility. You hate the staff, you hate your roommates, you hate everything about the place you are in, it is hell, but thats okay because you deserve hell, but now they tell you they are going to move you to another facility. you know what this means, the psychotic bitch therapist doesnt want to tarnish her record so she has you moved to the care of another related home so that you can be terminated their. And on the same day you hear this, within hours of finding this out, your mother who does come to see you every two or three weeks, tells you she is moving to another state and not taking you with her. Devastation. After ten months you break a second time. that night you have sex with the guy you share a room with, he has been trying to get you to have sex with him for a few months now, but you are too scared, but now he says three words and your resistance breaks. he says "I love you." You feel used, and like shit after. and worse you broke the rules.

The next morning before you are moved, you sit at the kitchen table and you try to figure out what is real. You are told sometimes in explicit sometimes in implicit ways, morality is subjective, reality is not real, etc. You no longer care if they win, you write. the next three hours will determine the rest of your life, over the course of three hours and fifteen pages you write to determine weather or not you will commit suicide. What will determine if you will commit suicide? Is it a letter? no, is it a weighing of how shitty everything is against the good in your life? no. It is a thesis on the nature of truth, and on the nature of reality which will determine the rest of your life, no matter how long, or how short that life may continue to be. If reality, if truth is subjective, than you will kill yourself, because if reality is subjective than it doesnt matter anyways, if it is not, you will devote the rest of your life to truth. After three hours and 15 pages I discovered Reality was not subjective, that there was such a thing as truth, and Truth became the God I gave my life to.

I still stumbled around blindly trying to find out exactly what it meant to have truth as my God. My life changed over night, but i did not. I began having lots and lots more sex after that mistake of a night, I kept trying to find love in sex, "The man who despises himself tries to gain self-esteem from sexual adventures—which can't be done, because sex is not the cause, but an effect and an expression of a man's sense of his own value . . .".

Now one may ask why I have shared all of this. I tend to be a very private individual, and have related most of the above to only three people(there is much more which for now I will keep private). Part of what allowed me to share this is the anonymity of the internet, however that is not why i shared what i have. I have been mad, I have pulled myself out of the dark pit, nails torn and bleeding, my body broken, beaten, and bruised, and alone. My journey to reason long, and hard fought. And thus I am amazed when people who claim to be rational individuals, say that because someone "Feels" they should have been born a different gender, this is reason. I am amazed that people who claim to be rational refuse to make moral judgements and treat the world as a subjective place. While it is true that some values are subjective (the liking of steak for example), there are most certainly objective values (such as life, and reality). In the words of Ayn Rand "Judge and prepare to be judged."

Weren't you a busy person?

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Weren't you a busy person?

Ba'al Chatzaf

I always feel so warm and fuzzy inside when people take the WRONG moral away from a story. I was a prostitute who couldnt be paid, not that I wouldn't accept payment, I couldn't. It was not then in my ability to understand the meaning of sex, nor that what I was looking for in sex could only first be attained before hand. My very warped view of the world at the time was doubly evil, the first was that "sex is sex", this however I never really believed though I tried. The second was that I could find love and acceptance in those i had sex with. Because (at the time) I still hated myself very much, it was impossible for me to find love. This I did not understand. I tried to use the cover of the first (sex is sex) to hide my quest for the second (acceptance and love).

I have attempted several times to write an autobiography, however it is still hard for me to put into words the chaos, the struggle, and the journey to truth. How does one put into words a dozen conflicting thoughts and beliefs? I can recall perfectly the events, thoughts, and emotions, yet I have yet to be able to put them into words. I have currently the broad outline of how i might be able to do it using fiction, perhaps using as the main character an individual who suffers from Identity dissociative disorder.

This however is besides the point.

I wonder how many people consciously choose their sexuality, and how many "Inherit" their sexuality like they inherit religion.

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First I am going to start from the premise that there is a fundamental difference between male and female. there is a proven difference in the way the brain works ( http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/men-women-different-brains.htm ) beyond this there are also hormonal differences which affect thinking and behavior. While he makes some stretches of the imagination Leonard Sax does make some good observations in "Why Gender Matters." about the differences in males and females.

Whilst clearly, there are biological differences between men and women, you can't take a discovery about the biological basis of general psychological tendencies and apply this to every single individual. To do so is Class Analysis (methodological collectivism).

Individual men and individual women aren't identical. Not all women will cognitively react in the 'stereotypical' manner. Lets look at a very good example of this: Ayn Rand. Her cognitive style is, according to some, highly masculine (i.e. based on logic and evidence) (note: I don't believe reason is inherently male but this belief is a very long-running one in our culture). Rand's cognitive style was so 'masculine' (by some traditional definitions) that it made her feel alienated from her feminity and thus she developed her fetish for bodice-ripper ravishment sex in order to reclaim femininity for herself (see "Ayn Rand: The Woman Who Would Not Be President" in Feminist Interpretations of Ayn Rand). Indeed, the actor that played Andrei in the Italian film version of We The Living was quite surprised at Rand's androgyny by traditional standards (he actually used the term 'bisexual' to describe her, but I think that was a language issue and he was attempting to say "androgynous" instead, or at least indicate that concept).

For those who have read my previous posts I still hold that Men who act like women and women who act like men are an abomination.

This statement presupposes Gender Essentialism, i.e. intrinsicism.

What actions are characteristically male? What actions are characteristically female?

Again, look at Rand as an example; she was pretty androgynous by some common definitions.

Also, there's a contradiction in your thinking; you begin by stating a fact (men in general and women in general have some differing neurological structures) but then go on to say that it would be an abomination for an individual to act in a gender-deviant fashion because it would be against nature. In other words, you begin with some sort of biological determinism ("Person X is of Gender Y, Gender Y acts in Manner Z") but THEN assert that people can choose to act in a gender-deviant manner (contradicting the biological determinism). But if biology were determinative then NO ONE would act in a gender-deviant fashion in the first place.

Your reasoning also misses the law of causality; a thing acts in accordance with its nature. Nothing, not even humans, can act in a way that literally defies our natures. We can act in ways which will damage us (and what will damage us is determined by our nature), but we can't do something which is literally against our nature.

The error you are making is that you are treating gender universals as Platonic, i.e. prior to any particular men or women. Your argument tacitly begins with two gender concepts ("masculinity" and "femininity") which have not been formed by proper abstraction from actual real-world men and women. You assume the concept is primary and then apply it to the particulars; particulars which don't fit cleanly into the relevant category are pathologized and called abominations. This is a textbook example of Platonic reasoning (even the normative component of Plato's Theory of the Forms is kept intact).

I should add, I don't intend this to sound confrontational. I'm simply pointing out what I believe to be errors in your argument. I'm not attempting to accuse you of deliberately making these errors.

In summary, your statements indicate a methodologically collectivist, rationalistic reasoning process based on a Platonic theory of gender which you attempt to justify with biological determinism.

I should here upfront mention that I do not believe sexuality is driven by some deterministic demon coded into our DNA, and that there is very little evidence to prove this claim. I also do not believe that MOST people consciously choose their sexuality.

To an extent I agree. I should add that even the science doesn't claim that sexuality is fixed by one's DNA; what science HAS discovered is that there are several biological factors which correlate with sexual preference. This indicates that biology plays a part in the process, but it clearly isn't the only factor. My own position on the matter is that what we call sexual preference (and I mean this broadly, not merely "which gender/s do you prefer to sleep with" but also encompassing sexual tastes etc) is a highly complicated phenomenon, where biology and psychological/social factors all play a part, and I'd argue some level of influence from one's moral beliefs also play a part to an extent. I certainly do NOT believe that someone makes a conscious choice at some point about whether or not they'll like guys, girls, both or neither.

I also agree with you that the mainstream Gay Lobby (or "Gay Inc.") has jumped on the "Born This Way" bandwagon primarily for political reasons. The majority of voters would be more easily convinced to accept gay rights if it could be proven to them that one's sexual preference is not a choice but a genetic thing (unfortunately, most people can't see beyond the dichotomy of 'genetic determinism' vs. 'arbitrary choice' but hey, that's most people). Hence the gay rights people latched onto the theory. Also, some members of the gay community indeed find the genetic determinism theory explanatory of their own experiences, which is another factor behind its adoption.

With some of the reading I have done over the last few months it is my conclusion that "Bisexuality" tending towards Heterosexuality will be the norm (women are still genetically the other half).

Statistically, the fastest-growing category of sexual preference identification is "heteroflexible" (i.e. mostly straight, but the occasional member of the same sex is hot), so real life is quickly approaching this. I happen to think Kinsey was probably correct; the majority of people are some shade of bisexual, although there are probably about 5% exclusively monosexual each way.

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Feelings are not a means of cognition, if someone feels like they should have been born a German shepard we refer to the as deranged and emotionally disturbed. We do not coddle them and try to make them feel like it's okay going around acting like a dog. Tue reality is you are born male or you are born female, in some rare cases some are born to the third gender. It is not okay to fake reality and pretend your something your not.

Since a dog is no human being, using it as a comparison example makes no sense here.

And if male homosexuals display behavior traditionally labeled as more "female"? Would you call this this "faking reality" too?

Edited by Xray
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Between the ages of 6 and 10 I had sex with 9 boys and 4 girls only one of whom was significantly older than I, and it was not he who initiated it. from the age of 11 to 17 my sexual relationships exploded and quite frankly I am very lucky be be alive, and to not have a disease. When I was 21 I did an exercise with a friend to try and remember how many people I had sex with over the course of my life up to that time. As best I could remember it ended up being something like 15 girls and 48 guys with most of those being had between 11-17.

I don’t mean to call you a liar, but I find it impossible to believe your story. These go beyond the disputed stories about Caligula, which were spread by his enemies. I’ve met compulsive liars before, and have heard fantastical tales like you’re telling here told to my face. It was always about getting attention.

But if I’m wrong about you, well, sorry. Someone ought to tell you how your stories come across.

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Between the ages of 6 and 10 I had sex with 9 boys and 4 girls only one of whom was significantly older than I, and it was not he who initiated it. from the age of 11 to 17 my sexual relationships exploded and quite frankly I am very lucky be be alive, and to not have a disease. When I was 21 I did an exercise with a friend to try and remember how many people I had sex with over the course of my life up to that time. As best I could remember it ended up being something like 15 girls and 48 guys with most of those being had between 11-17.

I don't mean to call you a liar, but I find it impossible to believe your story. These go beyond the disputed stories about Caligula, which were spread by his enemies. I've met compulsive liars before, and have heard fantastical tales like you're telling here told to my face. It was always about getting attention.

But if I'm wrong about you, well, sorry. Someone ought to tell you how your stories come across.

Oh, this is not that unusual. Not at all.

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Between the ages of 6 and 10 I had sex with 9 boys and 4 girls only one of whom was significantly older than I, and it was not he who initiated it. from the age of 11 to 17 my sexual relationships exploded and quite frankly I am very lucky be be alive, and to not have a disease. When I was 21 I did an exercise with a friend to try and remember how many people I had sex with over the course of my life up to that time. As best I could remember it ended up being something like 15 girls and 48 guys with most of those being had between 11-17.

I don’t mean to call you a liar, but I find it impossible to believe your story. These go beyond the disputed stories about Caligula, which were spread by his enemies. I’ve met compulsive liars before, and have heard fantastical tales like you’re telling here told to my face. It was always about getting attention.

But if I’m wrong about you, well, sorry. Someone ought to tell you how your stories come across.

Only counting those from age 11-17

63 individuals divided by six years comes out to be 10.5 people over the course of a 12 month time frame. Or 365*6=1290/63= a new partner every 34.7 days. Of course it was not nearly so symmetrical.

If I were prone to outlandish claims it would have manifested itself before now. However I know and knew at the time of writing this exactly how outlandish it would sound. "A good liar tells the truth as much as he can get away with, and only lies a little." If I were trying to make it believable i would have at least cut those numbers in half.

This is another reason why IF i ever do write my autobiography I will probably make it fiction, i can take the event and change them to be more believable.

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Alan:

Out of curiosity, do you consider all, or any, of the "incidences," post puberty, abusive?

Adam

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Alan:

Out of curiosity, do you consider all, or any, of the "incidences," post puberty, abusive?

Adam

All, no. One, yes. I had 2 partners that i carried on with after 18, we broke it off shortly before I was 19, I then picked up two more partners(one male one female) which relationship lasted until I was 23. when I was 22 I got myself involved in an abusive... "friendship" (relationship is too strong a word.) I was depressed and my friends lived in another state, the person I was involved with caused a rift between my friends and I. Since I got out of that... mess, I have had 2 sexual partners one whom I had a summer fling with, and another whom I am currently... involved with.

Prior to 18 I would only describe 3 of my sexual relationships as "abusive" the rest just tended to be stupid and reckless, there are a few exceptions however. The one relationship since I was 18 which was abusive was due to an emotional laps caused by being "alone" again.

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Alan:

Out of curiosity, do you consider all, or any, of the "incidences," post puberty, abusive?

Adam

All, no. One, yes. I had 2 partners that i carried on with after 18, we broke it off shortly before I was 19, I then picked up two more partners(one male one female) which relationship lasted until I was 23. when I was 22 I got myself involved in an abusive... "friendship" (relationship is too strong a word.) I was depressed and my friends lived in another state, the person I was involved with caused a rift between my friends and I. Since I got out of that... mess, I have had 2 sexual partners one whom I had a summer fling with, and another whom I am currently... involved with.

Prior to 18 I would only describe 3 of my sexual relationships as "abusive" the rest just tended to be stupid and reckless, there are a few exceptions however. The one relationship since I was 18 which was abusive was due to an emotional laps caused by being "alone" again.

Understood. You are quite lucky to come out the other side in a healthy and aware state.

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Understood. You are quite lucky to come out the other side in a healthy and aware state.

As I said before I was extremely lucky. "God protects fools and children" I was both. Though I attribute my luck more to statistical probability more than anything else. Given the age of my partners male and female there is a statistical decrees in the likely hood of them carrying something.

This conversation however has digressed from the original point. The point which I have been making is that sexual preference is not biological, neither is behavior. There is a biological (read hormonal) aspect to behavior as hormones can determine aggression levels, libido, etc. However biology can and is influenced by psychology (think behavior modification). Also consider that homosexuals can be aroused by the opposite sex, just as heterosexuals can be aroused by the same sex. It is also quite possible for homosexuals to have sex with the opposite sex, just as it is possible for heterosexuals to have sex with the same sex.

Part of what makes this dialogue difficult is the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual, and even "bisexual" do not fit, they are arbitrary social constructs. Think of the term "sexual experimentation", when in youth someone experiments with the same sex and then later in life never has another homosexual experience, do they go from being homosexual to heterosexual. In the current understanding of things the answer must be yes. It has become "normal" for youths to "experiment" but and shortly after they have their first heterosexual experience to break off the homosexual relationship. Does this occur because it is a social norm, because it is expected, and so psychologically the individual says to themselves either consciously or subconsciously "because A then B" or is it a more organic development. With the examination of sex in culture around the world it can safely be concluded as social and not organic. Take for example Hemophilia in Sparta (who were not in fact Pedophiles). Hemophilia became the norm to the point where normal the Spartan population was extremely culled. Consider also what is considered sexually attractive in women, this is something which changes over time. Note that during boom times petite women are considered attractive, yet during bust times voluptuous women are considered sexually attractive. consider also other things which are considered sexually attractive, hair colour, eye colour, skin pigment, tall short. As a thought experiment consider what you think sexually attractive, and then ask yourself why.

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