Greece puts halt to Gaza flotilla

[Mike Renzulli]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0701/Greece-puts-halt-to-Gaza-flotilla-in-a-win-for-Israel

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mike Renzulli

[Martin Radwin]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0701/Greece-puts-halt-to-Gaza-flotilla-in-a-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

[Mike Renzulli]

Martin,

The situation the Palestinians in Gaza are in now and any casualties or deaths of civilians there that result from conflicts in the occupied territories is the fault of groups like Hamas and Fatah who keep Palestinians in their present situation. Fatah and Hamas rule(d) the territories with an iron fist while supporting terrorist activities and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians despite negotiated cease-fire agreements of which Hamas has broken one negotiated with Israel and brokered by Egypt.

The Palestinian authority formerly under Yasser Arafat and now presently ruled by Hamas has one objective: the destruction of Israel. If taken to its irrational, illogical conclusions this also means the slaughter not only of the Jews but also other religious and ethnic groups (including Muslims) that live in the country as well.

Palestinian refugees initially left for Gaza and the West Bank of their own accord in order to either flee the 1948 war or join the fight against the Israelis. They and other Muslims in the occupied territories who suffered from conflict with Israel are, in truth, aggressors and are not innocent victims. Anyone who initiates force and flagrantly disrespect the rights of others does not deserve to have their rights respected by anyone.

Simultaneously, Israeli forces also have the right to take down Gazan homes. This is not being done to deny property rights or out of persecution. Rather it is that Palestinian homes are razed after IDF soldiers have found them to have been occupied by families or individuals housing terrorists or weapons that can be used to attack Israeli soldiers. Homes occupied by Palestinians who do not house terrorists, arms, or munitions that can be used against Israeli forces are, for the most part, left alone.

Any person who tries to steal the property of another by force or fraud or, even worse, attempts to murder someone has no rights. A thief is put in jail as punishment for his or her act and to prevent the recurrence of the crime they committed. Consequently, Palestinians in the contested territories are deprived of some (or all) of their freedoms because they have looted and murdered innocent civilians in and out of the occupied territories. There is no evidence that they would change if given independence.

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mike Renzulli

[Brant Gaede]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor...-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Quite a screed: facts, factoids and diatribe.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Martin,

The situation the Palestinians in Gaza are in now and any casualties or deaths of civilians there that result from conflicts in the occupied territories is the fault of groups like Hamas and Fatah who keep Palestinians in their present situation. Fatah and Hamas rule(d) the territories with an iron fist while supporting terrorist activities and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians despite negotiated cease-fire agreements of which Hamas has broken one negotiated with Israel and brokered by Egypt.

The Palestinian authority formerly under Yasser Arafat and now presently ruled by Hamas has one objective: the destruction of Israel. If taken to its irrational, illogical conclusions this also means the slaughter not only of the Jews but also other religious and ethnic groups (including Muslims) that live in the country as well.

Palestinian refugees initially left for Gaza and the West Bank of their own accord in order to either flee the 1948 war or join the fight against the Israelis. They and other Muslims in the occupied territories who suffered from conflict with Israel are, in truth, aggressors and are not innocent victims. Anyone who initiates force and flagrantly disrespect the rights of others does not deserve to have their rights respected by anyone.

Simultaneously, Israeli forces also have the right to take down Gazan homes. This is not being done to deny property rights or out of persecution. Rather it is that Palestinian homes are razed after IDF soldiers have found them to have been occupied by families or individuals housing terrorists or weapons that can be used to attack Israeli soldiers. Homes occupied by Palestinians who do not house terrorists, arms, or munitions that can be used against Israeli forces are, for the most part, left alone.

Any person who tries to steal the property of another by force or fraud or, even worse, attempts to murder someone has no rights. A thief is put in jail as punishment for his or her act and to prevent the recurrence of the crime they committed. Consequently, Palestinians in the contested territories are deprived of some (or all) of their freedoms because they have looted and murdered innocent civilians in and out of the occupied territories. There is no evidence that they would change if given independence.

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

The socialist Israeli government would only have weak traction with Objectivist rights' rhetoric. It invited Arafat back to rule the Palestinians. What did it (they) expect the Palestinians to then do except what they did do? There's a reason people in prisons join or associate with prison gangs.

--Brant

[Martin Radwin]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor...-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Quite a screed: facts, factoids and diatribe.

--Brant

You know, I am really pretty sick of defenders of the Israeli government smearing anyone who dares to question anything that it does as being anti-semitic. This smear has been used ever since the founding of Israel as a bludgeon to attack anyone who even suggests that the Israeli government is not as pure as the driven snow. It is continually used to intimidate people into being silent about the crimes committed by the Israeli government, lest they be labeled as anti-semites. No other country in the world has an equivalent status such that saying negative things about its government it equated with hating its people. And in the unique case of Israel, the charge of anti-semitism means hatred not just of Israeli citizens but of all Jews, including the millions of Jews who do not live in Israel and who perhaps have never even been to Israel. As such, this charge is absurd on its face. But it continues to be used against anyone who speaks out against the Israeli government.

This is not to deny that there really are people who both hate Israel and Jews, who really are virulent anti-semites. Obviously, such people really exist, just as there are racists who hate muslims, protestants, catholics, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians, French, and pretty much every other ethnic group in existence. Tribalism and its corresponding hatred of outsiders belonging to other tribes is a more or less universal attribute found among people everywhere. But Mike's statement that everyone who supports the Palestinians in their efforts to bypass the brutal blockade and despotic conditions under which they have been living is anti-semitic is simply just the worst kind of smear. It demonstrates an appalling ignorance of the extent of this support, and that most of this support is not coming from anti-semites but simply from people who are opposed to the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds.

Everything that I said in my post about what the Israeli government has done is true. It is not intended as a complete, context free description of everything going on in Israel, and it certainly does not exonerate anything done by individual Palestinian terrorists or Hamas.

Martin

Edited July 6, 2011 by Martin Radwin

[Martin Radwin]

Martin,

The situation the Palestinians in Gaza are in now and any casualties or deaths of civilians there that result from conflicts in the occupied territories is the fault of groups like Hamas and Fatah who keep Palestinians in their present situation. Fatah and Hamas rule(d) the territories with an iron fist while supporting terrorist activities and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians despite negotiated cease-fire agreements of which Hamas has broken one negotiated with Israel and brokered by Egypt.

It's noble of you to assert that all of the deaths of civilians killed by the Israeli government attacks and blockade are the fault of Hamas and Fatah. This is the perfect guilt-free argument used to justify mass murder by a government or private terrorist group against innocent people. It's the same argument that has been used repeatedly by the U.S. government to justify its murderous foreign policy in Iraq, first via the sanctions which killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, then Gulf War 1, then Gulf War 2, which killed hundreds of thousands more. No, it's not the fault of the U.S. government for all of these dead people. It's the fault of Saddam Hussein, who refused to do what the U.S. government ordered him to do. Because the Iraqi dictator refused to follow American orders, all of those Iraqis had to die, and we can blame it all on Hussein. Our government is now bombing people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Libya. And, of course, it's not our government's fault for all of those dead people. No matter how many people die, it's never their fault. This is the same argument used by terrorist groups who murder innocent people; they're all collateral damage.

The last cease fire agreement was broken not by Hamas but by the Israeli government. The Israeli attack of Gaza killed over a thousand Palestinians; the Israeli death toll was 13. The rocket attacks launched against Israel have killed far fewer Israelis than the number of Palestinians and Lebanese that the Israeli government has killed. There is plenty of guilt on all sides of this conflict. But you, like most defenders of Israel, try to pretend that the Israeli government is guilt free and that everything it does is morally justified, and that all of the people it has killed and occupied are collectively guilty and therefore deserve whatever they get.

Martin

[anthony]

You know, I am really pretty sick of defenders of the Israeli government smearing anyone who dares to question anything that it does as being anti-semitic. This smear has been used ever since the founding of Israel as a bludgeon to attack anyone who even suggests that the Israeli government is not as pure as the driven snow. It is continually used to intimidate people into being silent about the crimes committed by the Israeli government, lest they be labeled as anti-semites. No other country in the world has an equivalent status such that saying negative things about its government it equated with hating its people. And in the unique case of Israel, the charge of anti-semitism means hatred not just of Israeli citizens but of all Jews, including the millions of Jews who do not live in Israel and who perhaps have never even been to Israel. As such, this charge is absurd on its face. But it continues to be used against anyone who speaks out against the Israeli government.

This is not to deny that there really are people who both hate Israel and Jews, who really are virulent anti-semites. Obviously, such people really exist, just as there are racists who hate muslims, protestants, catholics, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians, French, and pretty much every other ethnic group in existence. Tribalism and its corresponding hatred of outsiders belonging to other tribes is a more or less universal attribute found among people everywhere. But Mike's statement that everyone who supports the Palestinians in their efforts to bypass the brutal blockade and despotic conditions under which they have been living is anti-semitic is simply just the worst kind of smear. It demonstrates an appalling ignorance of the extent of this support, and that most of this support is not coming from anti-semites but simply from people who are opposed to the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds.

Everything that I said in my post about what the Israeli government has done is true. It is not intended as a complete, context free description of everything going on in Israel, and it certainly does not exonerate anything done by individual Palestinian terrorists or Hamas.

Martin

I agree. Let's separate the "anti-semitic" from the "anti-Israel".

It appears to me that the 'one-eyed' Israel-glorifier does more harm than good to the identity of the nation. (Not referring to anyone here). To exalt something unrealistically, is as bad as vilifying it without cause.

Let's be clear, Israel's government has played dirty, and at times, acted inhumanely - the country would certainly sell its own mother for its continued existence.

Is this moral? It is pragmatism.

When the surviving Jews emerged from the camps, they said "Never Again", and you better believe they meant it. I can't escape the conviction that Israel would set the whole of the Middle East on fire, rather than ever again submit humbly to any force. But that's my impression.

But whatever the endless arguments for or against Israel's birth and continued existence, the fact remains it is there.

Also, let's be clear, Israel has the right to set the terms for peace.

That's what victors and survivors have always done.

In this case, they will be the most generous and just terms.

The Palestinian people got the short end of the stick; they are the descendants of villagers who sensibly got out of the way when the Arab League in '48, and Arab nations in '67, attacked Israel - that they anticipated a rather different outcome to the wars is not really relevant here.

But until they face the reality that they lost - that it is time they swallowed pride and made genuine peace negotiations possible -their hardship will go on.

As a test, imagine if arms were laid down and the 'gates' of Israel where opened to the Palestinians and Hamas tomorrow, what would you expect to happen? The other way round, and if Israelis were permitted free access to Gaza and the West Bank, yes, there could be a few nasty incidents by a dozen Jewish fanatics, but I know beyond a shadow of doubt what would occur. It would be, "hey fella, you want to do business? Let's talk."

Israel desperately wants peace, but it will not compromise its survival. This is the 'gap', the cleftstick, the country is stuck in, that the genuine Israeli-hater is shrewdly manipulating.

It is the 'humanitarianism' of the pro-Palestinians of Europe which is extending the sufferimg of the Palestinians, I'm convinced. Without moral and financial support, the PLO and Hamas would have been forced to plead for peace a long time ago. And if that sounds like cynical blackmail, it's not.

Is it possible for the well-meaning West (and malicious gangs and nations) to leave both sides alone, and perhaps end the spiral of hatred and brutality?

Tony

Edited July 6, 2011 by whYNOT

[Brant Gaede]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor...-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Quite a screed: facts, factoids and diatribe.

--Brant

You know, I am really pretty sick of defenders of the Israeli government smearing anyone who dares to question anything that it does as being anti-semitic. This smear has been used ever since the founding of Israel as a bludgeon to attack anyone who even suggests that the Israeli government is not as pure as the driven snow. It is continually used to intimidate people into being silent about the crimes committed by the Israeli government, lest they be labeled as anti-semites. No other country in the world has an equivalent status such that saying negative things about its government it equated with hating its people. And in the unique case of Israel, the charge of anti-semitism means hatred not just of Israeli citizens but of all Jews, including the millions of Jews who do not live in Israel and who perhaps have never even been to Israel. As such, this charge is absurd on its face. But it continues to be used against anyone who speaks out against the Israeli government.

This is not to deny that there really are people who both hate Israel and Jews, who really are virulent anti-semites. Obviously, such people really exist, just as there are racists who hate muslims, protestants, catholics, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians, French, and pretty much every other ethnic group in existence. Tribalism and its corresponding hatred of outsiders belonging to other tribes is a more or less universal attribute found among people everywhere. But Mike's statement that everyone who supports the Palestinians in their efforts to bypass the brutal blockade and despotic conditions under which they have been living is anti-semitic is simply just the worst kind of smear. It demonstrates an appalling ignorance of the extent of this support, and that most of this support is not coming from anti-semites but simply from people who are opposed to the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds.

Everything that I said in my post about what the Israeli government has done is true. It is not intended as a complete, context free description of everything going on in Israel, and it certainly does not exonerate anything done by individual Palestinian terrorists or Hamas.

Martin

Since I didn't accuse you of anti-Semitism, why are you accusing me of accusing you of that?

--Brant

[Martin Radwin]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor...-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Quite a screed: facts, factoids and diatribe.

--Brant

You know, I am really pretty sick of defenders of the Israeli government smearing anyone who dares to question anything that it does as being anti-semitic. This smear has been used ever since the founding of Israel as a bludgeon to attack anyone who even suggests that the Israeli government is not as pure as the driven snow. It is continually used to intimidate people into being silent about the crimes committed by the Israeli government, lest they be labeled as anti-semites. No other country in the world has an equivalent status such that saying negative things about its government it equated with hating its people. And in the unique case of Israel, the charge of anti-semitism means hatred not just of Israeli citizens but of all Jews, including the millions of Jews who do not live in Israel and who perhaps have never even been to Israel. As such, this charge is absurd on its face. But it continues to be used against anyone who speaks out against the Israeli government.

This is not to deny that there really are people who both hate Israel and Jews, who really are virulent anti-semites. Obviously, such people really exist, just as there are racists who hate muslims, protestants, catholics, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians, French, and pretty much every other ethnic group in existence. Tribalism and its corresponding hatred of outsiders belonging to other tribes is a more or less universal attribute found among people everywhere. But Mike's statement that everyone who supports the Palestinians in their efforts to bypass the brutal blockade and despotic conditions under which they have been living is anti-semitic is simply just the worst kind of smear. It demonstrates an appalling ignorance of the extent of this support, and that most of this support is not coming from anti-semites but simply from people who are opposed to the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds.

Everything that I said in my post about what the Israeli government has done is true. It is not intended as a complete, context free description of everything going on in Israel, and it certainly does not exonerate anything done by individual Palestinian terrorists or Hamas.

Martin

Since I didn't accuse you of anti-Semitism, why are you accusing me of accusing you of that?

--Brant

Brant,

You misunderstood my post, whose meaning I thought was perfectly clear. I didn't accuse you of anything. My post was specifically addressing Mike, who started all this by repeating the argument, used all too frequently, that anyone in favor of the Gaza flotilla or condemning the Israeli government in any way was anti-semitic. I answered your post in order to explain what was the intent behind my "screed" and "diatribe".

Martin

[Brant Gaede]

The Greeks, rightly, send the Islamic jihadists behind this charade and their leftist, anti-Semitic allies packing.

http://www.csmonitor...-win-for-Israel

Of course! Because, obviously, anyone who is opposed to any of the actions of the Israeli government, such as imposing blockades, occupying land that is not theirs, seizing vessels in international waters, bombing and killing thousands of innocent civilians, and keeping entire populations living in nearly subhuman conditions, obviously is motivated by nothing but hatred of Jews.

Similarly, anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of China is obviously a racist who hates Chinese people. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the government of Russia obviously hates Russians. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the Mexican government obviously hates Mexicans.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the most important of all instances of this rule. Anyone who is opposed to the actions of the U.S. government, such as its ongoing wars, bombing, and occupation of multiple countries, which have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, obviously hates Americans and is presumably a terrorist as well.

I'm glad we've cleared that up!

Martin

Quite a screed: facts, factoids and diatribe.

--Brant

You know, I am really pretty sick of defenders of the Israeli government smearing anyone who dares to question anything that it does as being anti-semitic. This smear has been used ever since the founding of Israel as a bludgeon to attack anyone who even suggests that the Israeli government is not as pure as the driven snow. It is continually used to intimidate people into being silent about the crimes committed by the Israeli government, lest they be labeled as anti-semites. No other country in the world has an equivalent status such that saying negative things about its government it equated with hating its people. And in the unique case of Israel, the charge of anti-semitism means hatred not just of Israeli citizens but of all Jews, including the millions of Jews who do not live in Israel and who perhaps have never even been to Israel. As such, this charge is absurd on its face. But it continues to be used against anyone who speaks out against the Israeli government.

This is not to deny that there really are people who both hate Israel and Jews, who really are virulent anti-semites. Obviously, such people really exist, just as there are racists who hate muslims, protestants, catholics, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians, French, and pretty much every other ethnic group in existence. Tribalism and its corresponding hatred of outsiders belonging to other tribes is a more or less universal attribute found among people everywhere. But Mike's statement that everyone who supports the Palestinians in their efforts to bypass the brutal blockade and despotic conditions under which they have been living is anti-semitic is simply just the worst kind of smear. It demonstrates an appalling ignorance of the extent of this support, and that most of this support is not coming from anti-semites but simply from people who are opposed to the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds.

Everything that I said in my post about what the Israeli government has done is true. It is not intended as a complete, context free description of everything going on in Israel, and it certainly does not exonerate anything done by individual Palestinian terrorists or Hamas.

Martin

Since I didn't accuse you of anti-Semitism, why are you accusing me of accusing you of that?

--Brant

Brant,

You misunderstood my post, whose meaning I thought was perfectly clear. I didn't accuse you of anything. My post was specifically addressing Mike, who started all this by repeating the argument, used all too frequently, that anyone in favor of the Gaza flotilla or condemning the Israeli government in any way was anti-semitic. I answered your post in order to explain what was the intent behind my "screed" and "diatribe".

Martin

Then you simply should have dealt with me separately instead of quoting me along with Mike. Just for the record and for what it's worth, I seem to occupy some middle ground between you two. I can't say it's pleasant.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here's The Audacity of Dope Band doing "Guns, Guns, Guns" in honor of the flotilla.

Heh.

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y5CsGViY5JQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[tjc999]

When the Palestinians stop using sneak rocket attacks to blow up Israeli kids, then they may have the right to complain about their living conditions. Stop acting like animals, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians take a good look at the actions of their Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt, whose jingoism (especially in 1967) is partially responsible for the current situation, then they may have the right to appeal to the global political scene. Stop endlessly excusing Arab aggression, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians voluntarily stop accepting the 13 TONS of food that Israel gives them FOR FREE, every WEEK, then they may complain. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

When the Palestinians realize that Israel giving Arabs citizenship and voting rights - whereas a Jew in any Arab country could never even dream of it - is one HELL of a human-rights concession, then maybe they will have the right to complain about unequal treatment.

When Turkey & Co. stops sending ships loaded with screaming maniacs wielding machetes and sharpened rebar, and calls this travesty a "humanitarian aid mission" - then the issue can be discussed seriously. When Reuters decides NOT to edit out the video footage of an IDF soldier who was gutted and thrown overboard, and who had to swim to his ship literally holding his guts in with one hand - then the worldwide media can be trusted to report the situation at least somewhat credibly.

When... oh hell, there are about 10,000 other examples.

Israel deals with hundreds of terror attacks each year - and you never hear about it.

Israel gives food, medication, and construction supplies to Gaza - and you never hear about it.

Israeli kids in areas adjoining Gaza have night terrors lasting well into adulthood because of the random night-time rocket attacks - and you never hear about it.

IDF soldiers are trained to ignore rocks, bricks, and other projectiles thrown at them, and do not shoot back - and you never hear about it.

IDF airstrikes are tightly targeted, and civilians are warned in advance to get out of the area - yet any casualties are still presented as proof of wanton Israeli aggression.

Israel constantly comes up with inventions that enrich the world's technological and sociological arenas - yet they never get the credit.

But the moment that a Palestinian issues a cry for sympathy, half the world is in a rush to coddle them. Amazing.

Objective assessment of the situation? Who needs it.

Pity and need, that's what rules the day. Wesley Mouch would be so proud.

[Brant Gaede]

When the Palestinians stop using sneak rocket attacks to blow up Israeli kids, then they may have the right to complain about their living conditions. Stop acting like animals, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians take a good look at the actions of their Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt, whose jingoism (especially in 1967) is partially responsible for the current situation, then they may have the right to appeal to the global political scene. Stop endlessly excusing Arab aggression, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians voluntarily stop accepting the 13 TONS of food that Israel gives them FOR FREE, every WEEK, then they may complain. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

When the Palestinians realize that Israel giving Arabs citizenship and voting rights - whereas a Jew in any Arab country could never even dream of it - is one HELL of a human-rights concession, then maybe they will have the right to complain about unequal treatment.

When Turkey & Co. stops sending ships loaded with screaming maniacs wielding machetes and sharpened rebar, and calls this travesty a "humanitarian aid mission" - then the issue can be discussed seriously. When Reuters decides NOT to edit out the video footage of an IDF soldier who was gutted and thrown overboard, and who had to swim to his ship literally holding his guts in with one hand - then the worldwide media can be trusted to report the situation at least somewhat credibly.

When... oh hell, there are about 10,000 other examples.

Israel deals with hundreds of terror attacks each year - and you never hear about it.

Israel gives food, medication, and construction supplies to Gaza - and you never hear about it.

Israeli kids in areas adjoining Gaza have night terrors lasting well into adulthood because of the random night-time rocket attacks - and you never hear about it.

IDF soldiers are trained to ignore rocks, bricks, and other projectiles thrown at them, and do not shoot back - and you never hear about it.

IDF airstrikes are tightly targeted, and civilians are warned in advance to get out of the area - yet any casualties are still presented as proof of wanton Israeli aggression.

Israel constantly comes up with inventions that enrich the world's technological and sociological arenas - yet they never get the credit.

But the moment that a Palestinian issues a cry for sympathy, half the world is in a rush to coddle them. Amazing.

Objective assessment of the situation? Who needs it.

Pity and need, that's what rules the day. Wesley Mouch would be so proud.

Excuse me, but why did you stop your essay in the middle?

--Brant

[tjc999]

When the Palestinians stop using sneak rocket attacks to blow up Israeli kids, then they may have the right to complain about their living conditions. Stop acting like animals, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians take a good look at the actions of their Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt, whose jingoism (especially in 1967) is partially responsible for the current situation, then they may have the right to appeal to the global political scene. Stop endlessly excusing Arab aggression, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians voluntarily stop accepting the 13 TONS of food that Israel gives them FOR FREE, every WEEK, then they may complain. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

When the Palestinians realize that Israel giving Arabs citizenship and voting rights - whereas a Jew in any Arab country could never even dream of it - is one HELL of a human-rights concession, then maybe they will have the right to complain about unequal treatment.

When Turkey & Co. stops sending ships loaded with screaming maniacs wielding machetes and sharpened rebar, and calls this travesty a "humanitarian aid mission" - then the issue can be discussed seriously. When Reuters decides NOT to edit out the video footage of an IDF soldier who was gutted and thrown overboard, and who had to swim to his ship literally holding his guts in with one hand - then the worldwide media can be trusted to report the situation at least somewhat credibly.

When... oh hell, there are about 10,000 other examples.

Israel deals with hundreds of terror attacks each year - and you never hear about it.

Israel gives food, medication, and construction supplies to Gaza - and you never hear about it.

Israeli kids in areas adjoining Gaza have night terrors lasting well into adulthood because of the random night-time rocket attacks - and you never hear about it.

IDF soldiers are trained to ignore rocks, bricks, and other projectiles thrown at them, and do not shoot back - and you never hear about it.

IDF airstrikes are tightly targeted, and civilians are warned in advance to get out of the area - yet any casualties are still presented as proof of wanton Israeli aggression.

Israel constantly comes up with inventions that enrich the world's technological and sociological arenas - yet they never get the credit.

But the moment that a Palestinian issues a cry for sympathy, half the world is in a rush to coddle them. Amazing.

Objective assessment of the situation? Who needs it.

Pity and need, that's what rules the day. Wesley Mouch would be so proud.

Excuse me, but why did you stop your essay in the middle?

--Brant

Because I didn't want to spend 3 hours listing all the possible points.

[Brant Gaede]

When the Palestinians stop using sneak rocket attacks to blow up Israeli kids, then they may have the right to complain about their living conditions. Stop acting like animals, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians take a good look at the actions of their Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt, whose jingoism (especially in 1967) is partially responsible for the current situation, then they may have the right to appeal to the global political scene. Stop endlessly excusing Arab aggression, and we'll talk.

When the Palestinians voluntarily stop accepting the 13 TONS of food that Israel gives them FOR FREE, every WEEK, then they may complain. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

When the Palestinians realize that Israel giving Arabs citizenship and voting rights - whereas a Jew in any Arab country could never even dream of it - is one HELL of a human-rights concession, then maybe they will have the right to complain about unequal treatment.

When Turkey & Co. stops sending ships loaded with screaming maniacs wielding machetes and sharpened rebar, and calls this travesty a "humanitarian aid mission" - then the issue can be discussed seriously. When Reuters decides NOT to edit out the video footage of an IDF soldier who was gutted and thrown overboard, and who had to swim to his ship literally holding his guts in with one hand - then the worldwide media can be trusted to report the situation at least somewhat credibly.

When... oh hell, there are about 10,000 other examples.

Israel deals with hundreds of terror attacks each year - and you never hear about it.

Israel gives food, medication, and construction supplies to Gaza - and you never hear about it.

Israeli kids in areas adjoining Gaza have night terrors lasting well into adulthood because of the random night-time rocket attacks - and you never hear about it.

IDF soldiers are trained to ignore rocks, bricks, and other projectiles thrown at them, and do not shoot back - and you never hear about it.

IDF airstrikes are tightly targeted, and civilians are warned in advance to get out of the area - yet any casualties are still presented as proof of wanton Israeli aggression.

Israel constantly comes up with inventions that enrich the world's technological and sociological arenas - yet they never get the credit.

But the moment that a Palestinian issues a cry for sympathy, half the world is in a rush to coddle them. Amazing.

Objective assessment of the situation? Who needs it.

Pity and need, that's what rules the day. Wesley Mouch would be so proud.

Excuse me, but why did you stop your essay in the middle?

--Brant

Because I didn't want to spend 3 hours listing all the possible points.

If you had done that and then stopped, my question would have been the same.

--Brant