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Hello again, everyone. Hope all is well with you.

I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and need some help crafting the universe in which my story will take place. I have asked friends and family for their insights, but they tend to be influenced by altruism or other non-objective positions. I really would like to spend some one-on-one time with a fellow creative Objectivist that is willing to work with me on my terms.

In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Anyway, let me know if you are interested in helping me out.

Thank you,

J.K. Gregg

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There was a video game, I think it was called Bioshock, that was about an Objectivist society. Of course there's Atlas Shrugged itself. Have you tried Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Trouble is, how do you depict conflict in an "Objectivist society"? I imagine it's something futuristic that you have in mind. Is it a case where 50% of the people are still attached to religion or some such thing, and they're trying to take our country back! You say "purely", what does that mean? Purely in terms of institutions, or purely as in everyone loooves Ayn Rand and no one likes Beethoven or Tolstoy anymore?

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There was a video game, I think it was called Bioshock, that was about an Objectivist society. Of course there's Atlas Shrugged itself. Have you tried Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Trouble is, how do you depict conflict in an "Objectivist society"? I imagine it's something futuristic that you have in mind. Is it a case where 50% of the people are still attached to religion or some such thing, and they're trying to take our country back! You say "purely", what does that mean? Purely in terms of institutions, or purely as in everyone loooves Ayn Rand and no one likes Beethoven or Tolstoy anymore?

Well in Ayn Rand's novel there is a utopian-esque secret/exclusive society. If I were you I would try to imagine this objectivist utopia on a distant planet. Then you also have a model of a world without objectivist on earth to contrast the utopian planet with.

Edit: The idea being that there are scouts from the utopian planet scavanging for potential objectivist on earth to send to Objectitopia(whatever you might call it)

Edited by Aristocrates
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Hello again, everyone. Hope all is well with you.

I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and need some help crafting the universe in which my story will take place. I have asked friends and family for their insights, but they tend to be influenced by altruism or other non-objective positions. I really would like to spend some one-on-one time with a fellow creative Objectivist that is willing to work with me on my terms.

In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Anyway, let me know if you are interested in helping me out.

Thank you,

J.K. Gregg

I am not an objectivist, but I have read everyone of Ayn Rand's novels (several times) and most of her essays (as published in the Objectivist or Ayn Rand News Letter). More important I am a professional logician and I am also an Aspergarian. One consequence of which is that I am very close to dis-compassionate. I was fortunate enough to be born hard-hearted. I detest altruism in all of its manifestations. I deal with other people on the grounds of rational self interest. I took the equivalent of the Striker's Oath before I ever read -Atlas Shrugged-. I will give an objective judgement but also a constructive judgement. I am a Problem Solver by birth and inclination. So if you need some limited time consultation I will be happy to help you because your request is an opportunity solve a problem that I have not met before, to wit, constructive literary criticism.

I am inclined to use the Socratic approach which takes the form of asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies. My hero Socrates was poisoned to death for doing such useful things, but I am sure you intend no harm.

My qualifications are lots of intelligent and a heart of granite (metaphorically speaking).

Ba'al Chatzaf

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If you mean the political system, it wouldn't look like much. I should think a good way to put this across in a story would be with remarks like "Can you imagine that back in the 20th and 21st centuries the government used to run 'schools'? They were buildings given over to learning, with people in them who did nothing but 'teach.' People didn't think there was any other way to get the job done." Not very snappy dialog, but that can be fixed.

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... I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and... In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Do you mean "state" or "society." As Peter Reidy noted, government would be miniscule. Ayn Rand's essays present her views. Read them carefully without your own prejudices. Just for instance, "Roots of War" suggests that she was not a supporter of the US war in Europe 1941-1945. Her testimony in front of HCUA was not her intended presentation. She wrote about that, as well. There would be no taxation, of course. She suggested a fee for court services. Nonetheless, she insisted that government must be limited to - and therefore must provide - army, police, and courts. Yet, there is nothing to prevent private guards, or adjudication. Today's Objectivists say that the government provides a monopoly of law within which any business - including private police and private courts - would operate, only that there could be no competing system of laws in that place. In Atlas Shrugged Judge Narragansett amended the Constitution to prohibit any law restricting production or trade.

But the government is not society. In an Objectivist world - one where at least a quarter of the people explicitly recognized the Basic Principles of Objectivism - government would be unimportant.

You have been pointed to Robert Heinlein. Have you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Have you ready L. Neil Smith's "Probability Broach" novels, or his Pallas (in our world; not the Broach)? How about the cyberpunk novels?

Also, how long has this society been Objectivist? Think about the change from 400 BC to today. Then imagine that in three generations. Government is a horrible waste of resources. Religion is a horrible waste of human potential. Free people of those and we would explode into space and across time.

You could use these very Objectivist message boards themselves as models for space stations, ships, moons, planets. They are privately held, relatively open yet personally and absolutely enforced, each producing the same mix, but in different ways. Look at the ancient Greek world before Rome, especially the archaic to classical period, or Europe of the High Middle Ages, or China in the time of the Warring States. Any time you have a broad cultural matrix of common language, etc., but weak central authority, you get these blossomings.

Richard P. Feynman was a hard-headed guy, but he found no metaphysical reason for death. The body repairs and replaces itself all the time. We know of babies who lose a finger and grow a new one back. Imagine what that promises.

James L. Halperin is the co-director of Heritage, the largest numismatic auction firm and the third largest auction firm in the world. Most people call it "coin collecting" but numismatics is the art and science that studies the forms and uses of money. It is the largest unregulated money market in the world. Silly conservatives say that inflation destroys the value of money, but "worthless" Zimbabwe notes sell for five bucks. Figure that out. Any way, Jim Halperin wrote two science fiction novels, The Truth Machine and The First Immortal. They are examples of how a capitalist sees the future.

Basically, if you set any Objectivist society far enough in the future, any advance you can image will be probable.

Myself, I look at Isaac Asimov's "Spacer" worlds - Solaria, Dawn, Aurora - enjoying sparse populations and robots to serve them. In his universe, they collapse, but I think otherwise.

Have you read Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy? It is a national socialist utopia set in 2000 as seen from 1886. What you want to avoid is the "tour guide" story in which the hero happens to meet the love of his life, who looks just like the girl he left behind. Rather, you would have actual, interesting drama play out in the world you create. That's tougher.

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... I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and... In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Do you mean "state" or "society." As Peter Reidy noted, government would be miniscule. Ayn Rand's essays present her views. Read them carefully without your own prejudices. Just for instance, "Roots of War" suggests that she was not a supporter of the US war in Europe 1941-1945. Her testimony in front of HCUA was not her intended presentation. She wrote about that, as well. There would be no taxation, of course. She suggested a fee for court services. Nonetheless, she insisted that government must be limited to - and therefore must provide - army, police, and courts. Yet, there is nothing to prevent private guards, or adjudication. Today's Objectivists say that the government provides a monopoly of law within which any business - including private police and private courts - would operate, only that there could be no competing system of laws in that place. In Atlas Shrugged Judge Narragansett amended the Constitution to prohibit any law restricting production or trade.

But the government is not society. In an Objectivist world - one where at least a quarter of the people explicitly recognized the Basic Principles of Objectivism - government would be unimportant.

You have been pointed to Robert Heinlein. Have you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Have you ready L. Neil Smith's "Probability Broach" novels, or his Pallas (in our world; not the Broach)? How about the cyberpunk novels?

Also, how long has this society been Objectivist? Think about the change from 400 BC to today. Then imagine that in three generations. Government is a horrible waste of resources. Religion is a horrible waste of human potential. Free people of those and we would explode into space and across time.

You could use these very Objectivist message boards themselves as models for space stations, ships, moons, planets. They are privately held, relatively open yet personally and absolutely enforced, each producing the same mix, but in different ways. Look at the ancient Greek world before Rome, especially the archaic to classical period, or Europe of the High Middle Ages, or China in the time of the Warring States. Any time you have a broad cultural matrix of common language, etc., but weak central authority, you get these blossomings.

Richard P. Feynman was a hard-headed guy, but he found no metaphysical reason for death. The body repairs and replaces itself all the time. We know of babies who lose a finger and grow a new one back. Imagine what that promises.

James L. Halperin is the co-director of Heritage, the largest numismatic auction firm and the third largest auction firm in the world. Most people call it "coin collecting" but numismatics is the art and science that studies the forms and uses of money. It is the largest unregulated money market in the world. Silly conservatives say that inflation destroys the value of money, but "worthless" Zimbabwe notes sell for five bucks. Figure that out. Any way, Jim Halperin wrote two science fiction novels, The Truth Machine and The First Immortal. They are examples of how a capitalist sees the future.

Basically, if you set any Objectivist society far enough in the future, any advance you can image will be probable.

Myself, I look at Isaac Asimov's "Spacer" worlds - Solaria, Dawn, Aurora - enjoying sparse populations and robots to serve them. In his universe, they collapse, but I think otherwise.

Have you read Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy? It is a national socialist utopia set in 2000 as seen from 1886. What you want to avoid is the "tour guide" story in which the hero happens to meet the love of his life, who looks just like the girl he left behind. Rather, you would have actual, interesting drama play out in the world you create. That's tougher.

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... I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and... In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Do you mean "state" or "society." As Peter Reidy noted, government would be miniscule. Ayn Rand's essays present her views. Read them carefully without your own prejudices. Just for instance, "Roots of War" suggests that she was not a supporter of the US war in Europe 1941-1945. Her testimony in front of HCUA was not her intended presentation. She wrote about that, as well. There would be no taxation, of course. She suggested a fee for court services. Nonetheless, she insisted that government must be limited to - and therefore must provide - army, police, and courts. Yet, there is nothing to prevent private guards, or adjudication. Today's Objectivists say that the government provides a monopoly of law within which any business - including private police and private courts - would operate, only that there could be no competing system of laws in that place. In Atlas Shrugged Judge Narragansett amended the Constitution to prohibit any law restricting production or trade.

But the government is not society. In an Objectivist world - one where at least a quarter of the people explicitly recognized the Basic Principles of Objectivism - government would be unimportant.

You have been pointed to Robert Heinlein. Have you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Have you ready L. Neil Smith's "Probability Broach" novels, or his Pallas (in our world; not the Broach)? How about the cyberpunk novels?

Also, how long has this society been Objectivist? Think about the change from 400 BC to today. Then imagine that in three generations. Government is a horrible waste of resources. Religion is a horrible waste of human potential. Free people of those and we would explode into space and across time.

You could use these very Objectivist message boards themselves as models for space stations, ships, moons, planets. They are privately held, relatively open yet personally and absolutely enforced, each producing the same mix, but in different ways. Look at the ancient Greek world before Rome, especially the archaic to classical period, or Europe of the High Middle Ages, or China in the time of the Warring States. Any time you have a broad cultural matrix of common language, etc., but weak central authority, you get these blossomings.

Richard P. Feynman was a hard-headed guy, but he found no metaphysical reason for death. The body repairs and replaces itself all the time. We know of babies who lose a finger and grow a new one back. Imagine what that promises.

James L. Halperin is the co-director of Heritage, the largest numismatic auction firm and the third largest auction firm in the world. Most people call it "coin collecting" but numismatics is the art and science that studies the forms and uses of money. It is the largest unregulated money market in the world. Silly conservatives say that inflation destroys the value of money, but "worthless" Zimbabwe notes sell for five bucks. Figure that out. Any way, Jim Halperin wrote two science fiction novels, The Truth Machine and The First Immortal. They are examples of how a capitalist sees the future.

Basically, if you set any Objectivist society far enough in the future, any advance you can image will be probable.

Myself, I look at Isaac Asimov's "Spacer" worlds - Solaria, Dawn, Aurora - enjoying sparse populations and robots to serve them. In his universe, they collapse, but I think otherwise.

Have you read Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy? It is a national socialist utopia set in 2000 as seen from 1886. What you want to avoid is the "tour guide" story in which the hero happens to meet the love of his life, who looks just like the girl he left behind. Rather, you would have actual, interesting drama play out in the world you create. That's tougher.

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You gotta have conflict, so have it from without. Imagine a future US which has defederalized into a bunch of independent regional republics, some are objectivist and some are..not so objectivist. I'd guess it would look like, Southwest Good, Northeast Bad.

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You gotta have conflict, so have it from without. Imagine a future US which has defederalized into a bunch of independent regional republics, some are objectivist and some are..not so objectivist. I'd guess it would look like, Southwest Good, Northeast Bad.

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Rather than ask what an Objectivist government/society would be like, why not ask what a "Second Renaissance" society would be like -- one in which Reason was the principal currency in communication and individual rights were respected to their utmost? (An Objectivist society is inconsistent with this ideal, for several reasons).

The government structure of such a society is something I've written on, see: http://www.amazon.com/Individual-Rights-Treatise-Human-Relations/dp/0984587004/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278694389&sr=8-1

Shayne

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You gotta have conflict, so have it from without. Imagine a future US which has defederalized into a bunch of independent regional republics, some are objectivist and some are..not so objectivist. I'd guess it would look like, Southwest Good, Northeast Bad.

You can have plenty of conflict without people violating each other, e.g., an asteroid heading for Earth and scientists struggling to invent and deploy a means of dealing with it, or Yellowstone on the verge of erupting again and trying to deal with that, or (even longer off) the Sun starting to cool down and dealing with that... There are plenty of other conflicts for men that aren't rooted in pettiness and stupidity.

Shayne

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Hi J.K.,

Good luck with your novel. In terms of Objectivist/libertarian science fiction, I am told that Nancy Kress's Beggars series is very good and might fit what you are looking for. The first novel in the series Beggars in Spain is on sale at Amazon for a little under $6. The other two books in the series (Beggars and Choosers and Beggars Ride), however, seem to be out of print. FWIW Beggars in Spain & Beggars and Choosers were nominated for Prometheus Awards when they came out.

For more books that might be along the lines of what you are looking for, check out the Libertarian Futurist Society (http://lfs.org). A great group dedicated to communicating freedom-oriented ideas via the genre of science fiction.

Hello again, everyone. Hope all is well with you.

I am working on a science fiction novel based in a futuristic Objectivist society and need some help crafting the universe in which my story will take place. I have asked friends and family for their insights, but they tend to be influenced by altruism or other non-objective positions. I really would like to spend some one-on-one time with a fellow creative Objectivist that is willing to work with me on my terms.

In particular, I'm trying to establish a view of what a purely objectivist state would look like.

Anyway, let me know if you are interested in helping me out.

Thank you,

J.K. Gregg

Edited by Mike Renzulli
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Thank you for all of your posts and book ideas.

Mr. Marotta touched on something important. My novel will take place within an Objectivist society; the vast majority of individuals subscribe to an individualist, Objectivist culture. The conflict will occur between the Human race, and another species that is non-objectivist.

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Thank you for all of your posts and book ideas.

Mr. Marotta touched on something important. My novel will take place within an Objectivist society; the vast majority of individuals subscribe to an individualist, Objectivist culture. The conflict will occur between the Human race, and another species that is non-objectivist.

Our adversaries will have to be have creatures. These critters have altruism built in at the genetic level

And it is not guaranteed that the individualists can lick collectively intelligent hive creatures.

We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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You have to get to the point where there could be an Objectivist society.

I heard once the notion that man could colonize the entire galaxy within a few millenia. Start with ten ships, each colonizes a planet, and within a few hundred yrs they've established themselves enough that they also produce ten colony ships. Within a few millenia, perhaps less, you'd have the entire galaxy colonized.

If you started with ten colony ships, and after 200 yrs each colony produced ten more colony ships, after 1000 yrs you'd have something like 100,000 colonies. Give or take.

Now, each of those colonies would develop distinctive societies and cultures. Somewhere along the line someone is going to found a colony dedicated to Objectivism. That colony would grow and thrive, as a consentual society free of coercion would. It would also have massive numbers of trading partners, perhaps absorbing other colonies, perhaps into a large federation centered on free exchange.

At some point, there'll be external conflicts with society based on coercion.

My suggestion is one of the two following:

1. An intersteller convention where reps from all the various Earth colonies (or as many as can attend) come back to Earth or

2. A conflict between the Objectivist society and its trade federation and non-Objectivist enemies.

Also, if you make Objectivism too big of a thing in it, if its too heavy handed, there'll be no audiance for it.

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You have to get to the point where there could be an Objectivist society.

I heard once the notion that man could colonize the entire galaxy within a few millenia. Start with ten ships, each colonizes a planet, and within a few hundred yrs they've established themselves enough that they also produce ten colony ships. Within a few millenia, perhaps less, you'd have the entire galaxy colonized.

You would need a vessel that could move at 99.99999 percent the speed of light to gain any significant time dilation effect.

Don't hold your breath until that happens.

Bottom line. The stars are too far away for us to reach them We may look, but we may not touch.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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You would need a vessel that could move at 99.99999 percent the speed of light to gain any significant time dilation effect.

Don't hold your breath until that happens.

Bottom line. The stars are too far away for us to reach them We may look, but we may not touch.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The controlling term is the denominator, SQRT(1 minus (v^2 over c^2)). At even 1/2 c, the denominator becomes .8.

Did I make a mistake?

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Time dilation is not necessary to the colonization part. It's not unreasonable that a society, esp an Objvst one could develop an alternative to straight line sub light travel given a millennia. Esp since such a society wouldn't have the usual horse shit that impedes science.

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Plus, you could have generation ships, taking as along as necessary. A solar system would not need habitable planets: they could draw materials from almost any resources. Gas giants would be oases. Finding a habitable planet, some might well colonize it, but others might well prefer the life they have.

It does have to be all one way for everyone.

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The conflict will occur between the Human race, and another species that is non-objectivist.

You ought to try Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Also, read Lawrence Krauss's The Physics of Star Trek.

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You would need a vessel that could move at 99.99999 percent the speed of light to gain any significant time dilation effect.

Don't hold your breath until that happens.

Bottom line. The stars are too far away for us to reach them We may look, but we may not touch.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The controlling term is the denominator, SQRT(1 minus (v^2 over c^2)). At even 1/2 c, the denominator becomes .8.

Did I make a mistake?

Yes. Let v/c = 1/2 the the term in the denomenator is sqrt (1 - 1/4) = sqrt (3/4), The reciprocal is 1.15. A barely noticeable dilation.

To get a dilation factor of 10 one must go at 9/10 the speed of light. Since most of the Class M stars are of the order of 1000 or more light years distant we will not live long enough to get there. We have not even a hint of suspended animation and freezing does not work. Generation ships are a pipe dream. Submariners cannot stay cooped up more than 6 months. In addition to which the lack of gravity will cripple the crews and cosmic rays will riddle their bodies with cancer. Our species was not evolved for long periods in zero g. And we cannot take the radiation for too long.

Long story short. We are not going to the stars. We may look at them, but we will not touch them.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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No, I'm gonna give a longer reply to that.

To get a dilation factor of 10 one must go at 9/10 the speed of light. Since most of the Class M stars are of the order of 1000 or more light years distant we will not live long enough to get there. We have not even a hint of suspended animation and freezing does not work. Generation ships are a pipe dream. Submariners cannot stay cooped up more than 6 months. In addition to which the lack of gravity will cripple the crews and cosmic rays will riddle their bodies with cancer. Our species was not evolved for long periods in zero g. And we cannot take the radiation for too long.

We don't know generational ships won't work bc we've never tried them. Submariners don't have women, they're on short tours away from home, and aren't planning to reproduce and raise families on their sub marines.

You can simulate gravity by spinning a ship.

And you can protect from radiation with the proper shielding.

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