Gone With The Wind and Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead Characters

[Selene]

I think teachers were draft exempt in the 1960s.

Beats me, and I don't think it affects the story either way. BTW this comes from a short story first published in 1964. Were "future" teachers exempt? I guess that means if you planned to major in education.

Brant is correct.

It was an occupational deferment which the Selective Service called it's channeling policy which was to give deferments to occupations that they wished to fill in the regular society.

Vietnam War

President Kennedy's decision to send military troops to Vietnam as "advisors" was a signal that Selective Service Director Lewis B. Hershey needed to visit the Oval Office. From that visit emerged two wishes of JFK with regard to conscription. The first was that the names of married men with children should occupy the very bottom of the callup list. Just above them should be the names of men who are married. This Presidential policy, however, was not to be formally encoded into Selective Service Status. Men who fit into these categories became known as Kennedy Husbands. When President Lyndon Johnson decided to rescind this Kennedy policy, all across the country there was a last minute rush to the altar by thousands of couples.

Many early rank and file anti-conscription protesters had been allied with the National Committee for a SANE Nuclear Policy. The completion in 1963 of a Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty left a mass of undirected youth in search of a cause. Syndicated cartoonist Al Capp portrayed them as S.W.I.N.E, (Students Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything). The catalyst for protest reconnection was the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.

Consequently, there was some opposition to the draft even before the major U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War began. The large cohort of Baby Boomers who became eligible for military service during the Vietnam War also meant a steep increase in the number of exemptions and deferments, especially for college and graduate students. Furthermore, college graduates who volunteered for military service and even (to a lesser degree) those who were drafted had a much better chance of securing a preferential posting compared to less-educated draftees. This was a source of considerable resentment among poor and working class young men, who could not afford a college education.^{[citation needed]}

President Gerald Ford announces amnesty for draft evaders at the White House, Washington, D.C. 1974 As U.S. troop strength in Vietnam increased, more young men were drafted for service there, and many of those still at home sought means of avoiding the draft. Since only a handful of National Guard and Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, enlistment in the Guard or the Reserves became a favored means of draft avoidance. Vocations to the ministry and the rabbinate soared, because divinity students were exempt from the draft^{[citation needed]}. Doctors and draft board members found themselves being pressured by relatives or family friends to exempt potential draftees.^{[citation needed]}

Some conscientious objectors objected to the war based on the theory of Just War. One of these, Stephen Spiro, was convicted of avoiding the draft, but given a suspended sentence of five years. He was later pardoned by President Gerald Ford.^[39]

According to the Veteran's Administration, 9.2 million men served in the military between 1964 and 1975. Nearly 3.5 million men served in the Vietnam theater of operations. From a pool of approximately 27 million, the draft raised 2,215,000 men for military service during the Vietnam era. It has also been credited with "encouraging" many of the 8.7 million "volunteers" to join rather than risk being drafted.^{[citation needed]}

Of the nearly 16 million men not engaged in active military service, 96% were exempted (typically because of jobs including other military service), deferred (usually for educational reasons), or disqualified (usually for physical and mental deficiencies but also for criminal records to include draft violations).^[12] Draft offenders in the last category numbered nearly 500,000 but less than 10,000 were convicted or imprisoned for draft violations.^[17] Finally, as many as 100,000 draft eligible males fled the country.^[40][41]

[9thdoctor]

When President Lyndon Johnson decided to rescind this Kennedy policy, all across the country there was a last minute rush to the altar by thousands of couples.

I was at a TAS conference years ago in NY were there was a speaker who worked for NBI, I don't remember her name. She told a story about how the guy she was dating needed to get married to avoid the draft, and how he argued that she was irrational, or anti-man, or something like that if she didn't marry him. The story got a good laugh. I gather the marriage didn't last.

[Brant Gaede]

If you were found unfit to be drafted your draft status got branded. Your future employer could pretty much tell you were probably a homosexual, for instance, if that was the reason. As many as 1/3 of the air force's enlisted men in the 1960s could easily have been homosexuals. The idea must have been that homosexuals were welcome in the military, if they were discreet, and in fact were deliberately pushed in just like most enlistees. Private E-1 pay when I joined in 1964 was $86 a month, or 500 to 600 today. It was mostly spending money. You wouldn't even think about marriage off that. The pay didn't start ramping until after you were in two years and got some real rank, which would be E-4. I did get an extra $55 jump pay after six months when I started getting off of perfectly good airplanes at altitude. I got another $55 combat pay in Vietnam. Back then it wasn't to be sneezed at. I had something like 3500-4000 saved up when I left the service. That might be like 17-20,000 today. Not much money, really, no matter how you look at it, for the civilian world. I was just happy I was still in one piece.

--Brant

[Xray]

It may be true that people are attracted to the surrealistic elements (I'd prefer the term 'unrealistic' here because "surrealistic" is linked to surrealism the art movement), but as for the message Rand tries to convey, imo it is precisely these unrealistic elements which are counterproductive.

Ayn Rand was no Alfred Hitcock who said his films are not a slice of life but a slice of cake.

Ayn Rand meant it.

Imo there is no real way out in terms of downplaying problematic scenes (like e. g. Roark 'selfishly' blowing up the building), and say since they figure 'only in a novel', doing the reality test on them would not make much sense.

I did not mean "surrealistic elements." The novels in their entirety are surreal.

To avoid a possible misunderstanding: What exactly do you mean here by The novels in their entirety are "surreal". Do you mean "fictional"?

During the extensive Q&A period following an informal talk Branden gave in 1996, he told a pertinent story which, he said, since it would shock some in the audience, he swore on his grandchildren's lives was true.

He said he was expressing some sadness to Ayn over Hank's and Francisco's being left without Dagny's favors, and Ayn said, "Oh, I don't think John would mind if she spends an occasional night with them." (She might have said "the boys" instead of "them." I'd need to double check to be sure I have the rest of the exact phrasing. I haven't re-listened to the tape since I first heard it.)

Of course John wouldn't mind. The author would make sure he wouldn't.

--Brant

Galt as a pure creation of the author's mind, indeed has no say in the matter. ;)

Edited May 19, 2011 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

I did not mean "surrealistic elements." The novels in their entirety are surreal.

To avoid a possible misunderstanding: What exactly do you mean here by The novels in their entirety are "surreal". Do you mean "fictional"?

Yes, I mean a fictional novel, which is an allusion to a novel that was never written that is in a novel that was written.

No. This is the serious answer. Do you have any idea how painful it was for me to write that "No"? Do you know that if I were a little boy in your class I'd throw a book through the window and run out of the room screaming? Do you know what happens to the little boys and girls that don't? Sure you do: they go on to the next grade believing in anthropogenic global warming, recycling as commonly understood, Moslems deservedly get their own special laws, and what a fine thing public education is.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

I did not mean "surrealistic elements." The novels in their entirety are surreal.

To avoid a possible misunderstanding: What exactly do you mean here by The novels in their entirety are "surreal". Do you mean "fictional"?

Yes, I mean a fictional novel, which is an allusion to a novel that was never written that is in a novel that was written.

Any chance you tell us what you mean by surreal? Wikipedia gives it features like “element of surprise, unexpected juxtapositions and non sequitur”. I don’t see it. Douglas Adams and Thomas Pynchon’s works are often surreal, here’s a summary of the opening chapter of Gravity’s Rainbow as an example:

The episode and novel begins with an apocalyptic vision of an Evacuation from an unnamed city which may or may not be the dream of Pirate Prentice, the first principal character we meet.

The rest of the episode's action is set on Monday, December 18, 1944 in Prentice's London home and involves Prentice waking, rescuing a house-mate from injury or death, then venturing to the rooftop greenhouse to gather bananas for breakfast. While on the roof, Prentice spies a gleam in the sky that he surmises is that of an incoming German V-2 rocket launched from the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_episodes_in_Gravity's_Rainbow

Here's a snippet:

The white line, abruptly, has stopped its climb. That would be fuel cutoff, end of burning, what’s their word . . . Brennschluss. We don’t have one. Or else it’s classified. The bottom of the line, the original star, has already begun to vanish in red daybreak. But the rocket will be here before Pirate sees the sun rise.

The trail, smudged, slightly torn in two or three directions, hangs in the sky. Already the rocket, gone pure ballistic, has risen higher. But invisible now.

Oughtn’t he to be doing something . . . get on to the operations room at Stanmore, they must have it on the Channel radars—no: no time, really. Less than five minutes Hague to here (the time it takes to walk down to the teashop on the corner . . . for light from the sun to reach the planet of love . . . no time at all). Run out in the street? Warn the others?

Pick bananas.

[Brant Gaede]

What I mean by surreal in literature is a different, but seemingly much the the same, parallel world taken in toto that the reader is guided through by the author because you never know quite what is right because the labels have been changed and the sub-surface revealed. For instance, where were the elections in AS? Political campaigns? The Americans? The Jews? The children? Some of the heroes had some American attributes. Ellis Wyatt was the most American-like character in that book. The bad guys tended to be more American in their badness than the good guys in their goodness.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

What I mean by surreal in literature is a different, but seemingly much the the same, parallel world taken in toto that the reader is guided through by the author because you never know quite what is right because the labels have been changed and the sub-surface revealed. For instance, where were the elections in AS? Political campaigns? The Americans? The Jews? The children? Some of the heroes had some American attributes. Ellis Wyatt was the most American-like character in that book. The bad guys tended to be more American in their badness than the good guys in their goodness.

--Brant

Franscisco said he came to New York to partake of the output of Moe's Delicatassen. The only Jewish reference I found in -AS- (the novel). There were none in the motion picture.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[9thdoctor]

Franscisco said he came to New York to partake of the output of Moe's Delicatassen. The only Jewish reference I found in -AS- (the novel). There were none in the motion picture.

Are you sure Moe's isn't a halal shop? You assume Moe is short for Moshe, or whatever, but it might be short for Mohammad.

[BaalChatzaf]

Franscisco said he came to New York to partake of the output of Moe's Delicatassen. The only Jewish reference I found in -AS- (the novel). There were none in the motion picture.

Are you sure Moe's isn't a halal shop? You assume Moe is short for Moshe, or whatever, but it might be short for Mohammad.

Not likely Consider when -AS- was written. Back in the early 50's. The only Moes in NYC then were Moishes. And New Jersey and Michigan were the places to go to find Halal meat stores.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited May 20, 2011 by BaalChatzaf

[Peter]

When I first read "Atlas Shrugged," at age 16, it seemed "creepy" to me, especially the guy watching from the tunnel, and society collapsing.

I heard countless stories about The Great Depression from my parents and their friends. If it happens again, I wonder what our "average" standard of living wlll be? Will obesity no longer be a problem? Will healthcare and dental care become a luxury? Could our allies like Israel survive without Pax Americana? I would miss our American, straight, white teeth. And Columbian coffee. What would the internet cost?

If civilization declines will have have the rise of new types of Nazis and Communists revolutionaries, or will Islamic monsters dominate? Will wars for territory, water, and minerals become commonplace? The twentieth century was a wonderful time and a terrible time. I don't want to go back.

Peter

[BaalChatzaf]

If civilization declines will have have the rise of new types of Nazis and Communists revolutionaries, or will Islamic monsters dominate?

Yes.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

I guess this can go on this thread...

In response to the Ed Schultz apology for calling Laura Ingram a "right wing slut" and a "talk slut," Glenn refers to the Roark and Toughy beginning at 8:08 of the clip:

Beck mentions Fountainhead today

Adam

[Selene]

This lady is such a class act. Mega bright. First female editor of the Dartmouth Review. Clerked for Clarence Thomas.

A breast cancer survivor. She converted to Roman Catholicism. She has two (2) adopted children, Maria from Guatemala and Dimitri from Russia.

She is an incredibly satirical and passionate speaker. She had serious homophobic issues when she was younger and was alienated from her brother who was gay and whose partner had contracted Aids. They subsequently reconciled and she admitted that she had matured in her views. " In 1997, Ingraham wrote an essay in the Washington Post in which she stated that she changed her views after witnessing 'the dignity, fidelity and courage' with which her gay brother Curtis and his late companion coped with AIDS. She said she now understands why gays need protection and regrets her 'callous rhetoric.'"

Laura's Acceptance of Schultz's apology <<<<<hilarious

She has the 8th most listened to radio show with about 5.5 million weekly listeners.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Selene

[Ailsworth]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2011 at 9:43 PM, psychoanaleesis said:

Last night was my first to watch Gone with the Wind and I could have loved it except that it was a tragedy. The characters started out with fatal flaws set by the author (except for Rhett Butler - he was a story or universe of his own). I'm still searching for the precise concept to integrate what I witnessed but the whole movie was great awesome! Superb acting, great casting, the characterization was very vivid yet the ending left a very rough texture in my mind. It is like the conflict was not resolved (my girl told me that there was another novel following this where Scarlett and Rhett got back together -wonder where I can find it locally?)

Apart from the above, I'm very happy that I saw the movie and look forward to having it in my movie library someday along with the likes of Iron Man, the Hannibal series and a few more (I enjoy books better so - meh).

What I wanted to talk about here were the similarities of Rand's characters from AS and the Fountainhead to the characters in GWTW. My eyes became as wide as saucers especially in the scene where Scarlett visited Rhett in the Union prison to ask for $300 for tax. My god! It's Dagny asking Fransisco money for the John Galt line!!!

The main difference that I witnessed between Rand and Mitchell's was that though the characters was that though equally vivid, their metaphysics were complete opposites. Rand produced heroes who were fully integrated or had little flaws while Mitchell's heroes gave me the feeling of looking at a cracked mirror especially with Scarlett.

Here is a list of equivalent characters I saw and a brief description as to why I think so.

Scarlett O'Hara = Dagny Taggart/ Dominique Francon - both had no primary "sense of guilt" but an overflowing "passion for life", intelligent, independent and both know how to run businesses. They were rather controlling too I suppose hat's what Rand was talking about when she said Dagny had too much optimism that she wished to extend it to others albeit Scarlett shows it in a bit immature way (and this is how Dominique comes in).

Rhett Butler = Francisco D'Anconia/ Gail Wynand - do I really have to explain this? Why, by just the way Clark Gable looks and his ability to change expression dramatically... that's how I always imagined Francisco would look like. Also, he understood everything that is to be understood about the story. He's trying to fight the flaws of the other characters and the story from the inside but knows the implication of his every action. He already advanced but not far detached (unlike Galt who watched from a distance until very later on in the novel). He's ruthless disciplined and would not hesitate to defend his philosophy even if it meant killing the very woman he loved.

Ashley Wilkes = Hank Rearden - They are both Men of their words. They uphold honor even though both do not know/refused to know its root (at least at first for Rearden).

Mammy/Big Sam = Eddie Willers - well intentioned help or advisers of the heroes.

Melanie Hamilton = Katie Halsey - as Rhett described her, she had "no life of her own, only heart."

I still think there are more but please feel free to comment if I overlooked major ones.

Thanks in advance.

Man, you should read the novel. For all that Miss Rand is accused of stealing from Nietzsche, I submit that she got more from GWTW than she would ever admit. Look at the lateral leap from Kyra to Howard Roark. Look at the change in prose! I tell you right now that Rhett Butler made Rand randy ;-), and she derived more raw philosophy from Mitchell even than from Aristotle.
I have heard Miss Rand speak at length on many novels, and her knowledge of literature is astounding, but she has few words for GWTW, and for good reason - to prevent her readers from drawing uncomfortable comparisons. Every drop of social commentary found in The Fountainhead will have roots in GWTW, mostly from the mouth of Rhett Butler, who, to readers of The Fountainhead will appear very Randian indeed. He gave Miss Rand the words she needed to make her own philosophy expressible in American terms.
This thread is the first time I have ever seen anyone other than myself with such thoughts, and I could write a thousand word essay on the parallels between GWTW and The Fountainhead, but 1) that would be very intense work only to set myself up for derision, and 2) I love The FOuntainhead (and Miss Rand) too much to broach an unnecessary controversy.

[9thdoctor]

3 hours ago, Ailsworth said:

 I could write a thousand word essay on the parallels between GWTW and The Fountainhead, but 1) that would be very intense work only to set myself up for derision, and 2) I love The FOuntainhead (and Miss Rand) too much to broach an unnecessary controversy.

Broach away!  You vetted this site before joining, right? 

Oh, and welcome to OL.

Don't tell me you're afraid of a little derision.  What are you?  Not a:

 

[BaalChatzaf]

6 hours ago, 9thdoctor said:

Broach away!  You vetted this site before joining, right? 

Oh, and welcome to OL.

Don't tell me you're afraid of a little derision.  What are you?  Not a:

 

Pussy Galore to be exact.  Ian Flemming really loved those puns. In one of the Bond novels there was a Holly Goodhead. 

[Selene]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ailsworth]

I don't know what it means to vet a website. I am not nominating it for anything; I just enjoy reading the discussions.
I will consider it. For such an essay to be even half-way scholarly, I would need much more than just my memories of the texts. For there will be many gainsayers who would demand chapter and verse, and side by side comparisons. Both books are monsters, and the cost/benefit analysis leaves me with cold feet. If it were for a literature class and an important grade were involved, I'd work on it day and night. I can only say that if you read GWTW you will not miss the parallels, and if you have not read GWTW, you have missed much more than that.

[Brant Gaede]

If you aren't a scholar don't try to be scholarly. Come up with something for a scholar. One good thing about the new software here on OL is the search feature. For the first time it's easy to find a lot of old stuff. You found this 5yo thread.

Whatever you do save it as a file before you post it.

--Brant

[PDS]

5 hours ago, Ailsworth said:

I don't know what it means to vet a website. I am not nominating it for anything; I just enjoy reading the discussions.
I will consider it. For such an essay to be even half-way scholarly, I would need much more than just my memories of the texts. For there will be many gainsayers who would demand chapter and verse, and side by side comparisons. Both books are monsters, and the cost/benefit analysis leaves me with cold feet. If it were for a literature class and an important grade were involved, I'd work on it day and night. I can only say that if you read GWTW you will not miss the parallels, and if you have not read GWTW, you have missed much more than that.

Well said, all the way around.