Posting Guidelines and Insulting Behavior

[Jonathan]

Folks:

You can take a look at this one narrow aspect of one small aspect of football strategy from Bill Walsh's notes on dropback passing here.

The mental analytical tools required for just this slice of one set of offensive plays is comparable to the analysis required in chess.

I have played both at a highly competitive level and they are quite similar.

6. Curl: -5 step timed.

Adam

It's like reading sheet music, isn't it?

Here's a bread 'n' butter golden oldie from the sixties, the flow of which (or an abstraction of it) I'm currently using in a landscape painting.

J

[Selene]

Jonathan:

Yes, a good comparison. My position for the five (5) years that I played was right guard on offense and that Green Bay power sweep was our bread and butter play.

The coordination required for it to succeed is similar to achieving harmony with an orchestra.

The aspect of this play that I loved was that it provided me with excellent blocking angles because of the pull that had to be executed. Additionally, it set up the "false trap" where my pulling created space for the cross trap over my vacated position which, if my right tackle, and tight end did their jobs, resulted in excellent yardage and ball control.

Without doubt, one of the most complex team games in existence.

Adam

Edited April 26, 2011 by Selene

[Brant Gaede]

On this thread, I'm still at the point of believing that JR is not foolish enough to believe the silly crap that he's saying. I'd say that I have more respect for him than that. I've been operating under the assumption that we're having some fun jousting, and that he's yanking chains and hoping to get a rise out of people. If it turns out that I've seriously misread him, I'll eventually drop it and lower my estimate of his intelligence and personality accordingly.

It's hard to refute an argument made up entirely of condescension.

--Brant

[Rich Engle]

"You're pretty much fucked as soon as you criticize others who have put lots of discipline into what they do."-- Rich Engle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO2BIf12xnQ

To criticize otherwise only shows something about yourself--maybe something you don't like. Perhaps you are jealous.

I have never understood jealousy beyond the weird fact that I have never experienced it; I do not know what it feels like at all. All I do is occasionally study it, and it saddens me every time I do so--but I have never had it inside my body. I suppose I should be very thankful for that condition. Now, you can question that all you wish, but I am saying I have never felt it. Others have and it saddens me.

" J.G. Bennett: If you know you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people, this is no obstacle to work. ..."

rde

Edited April 26, 2011 by Rich Engle

[Brant Gaede]

I wonder if jealousy is a real emotion or simply a denatured intellectualization of envy. Every adult knows what envy feels like, I do, but I've always been very good at IDing what it was and what was going on and killing it in the crib. But jealousy? Off the top of my head I think I see the awful truth. Jealousy is a cheap way of acknowledging envy in a more socially acceptable way--if you're jealous you're mad, angry mad, no need to own up to the envy just below the surface giving jealousy a foundation to stand on. Envy is ugly ugly, jealousy understandably ugly but excusable for a vibrant, dynamic, alive human being. No need to go deep.

--Brant

[Ellen Stuttle]

On this thread, I'm still at the point of believing that JR is not foolish enough to believe the silly crap that he's saying. I'd say that I have more respect for him than that. I've been operating under the assumption that we're having some fun jousting, and that he's yanking chains and hoping to get a rise out of people. If it turns out that I've seriously misread him, I'll eventually drop it and lower my estimate of his intelligence and personality accordingly.

It's hard to refute an argument made up entirely of condescension.

--Brant

I have to agree with Brant there, Jonathan. The comment is more condescending than anything you critique AR for saying, let alone JR.

What does it amount to except a threat?: Unless JR says he doesn't believe "the silly crap that he's saying," there goes your "estimate of his intelligence and personality."

How is this one whit better than AR's "And so, gentle reader, do you," which you've interpreted as an intimidation technique?

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

I wonder if jealousy is a real emotion or simply a denatured intellectualization of envy. Every adult knows what envy feels like, I do, but I've always been very good at IDing what it was and what was going on and killing it in the crib. But jealousy? Off the top of my head I think I see the awful truth. Jealousy is a cheap way of acknowledging envy in a more socially acceptable way--if you're jealous you're mad, angry mad, no need to own up to the envy just below the surface giving jealousy a foundation to stand on. Envy is ugly ugly, jealousy understandably ugly but excusable for a vibrant, dynamic, alive human being. No need to go deep.

--Brant

I've thought of jealousy as resultant from envy as long as I remember thinking about it. (This is why I disagree with the "jealousy" diagnosis of AR's reaction to Patrecia, since I think that Rand wasn't envying Patrecia's characteristics. "Outrage," imo, is the accurate category.)

Ellen

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On this thread, I'm still at the point of believing that JR is not foolish enough to believe the silly crap that he's saying. I'd say that I have more respect for him than that. I've been operating under the assumption that we're having some fun jousting, and that he's yanking chains and hoping to get a rise out of people. If it turns out that I've seriously misread him, I'll eventually drop it and lower my estimate of his intelligence and personality accordingly.

It's hard to refute an argument made up entirely of condescension.

--Brant

I have to agree with Brant there, Jonathan. The comment is more condescending than anything you critique AR for saying, let alone JR.

Jonathan,

Man, how condescending can you get? How dare you give a negative value judgment of what someone thinks and admit a possible error in reading that person?

Of course the following isn't condescending.

I realize that adults who are secretly a little uncomfortable with their strong interest in such childish things have attempted to persuade themselves and others that this is true. It is, however, laughable on its face. There is clearly nothing about these games that would baffle a five-year-old, since that's the mental level of most of the thrashing, boneheaded jockstraps who play them.

Anything else I can do for you?

See if you can learn the difference between being condescending and... er... um... "obdurateness"... er... I mean... hmmmm... a rant that "gets all it's strength and cohesiveness from its completeness"... you know... like... expressing a value judgment of looking down on others... er... rather, that is... giving a negative "estimate of their intelligence and personality"... (I think)....

Just trying to be helpful...

Michael

[Rich Engle]

See if you can learn the difference between being condescending and... er... um... "obdurateness"... er... I mean... hmmmm... a rant that "gets all it's strength and cohesiveness from its completeness"... you know... like... expressing a value judgment of looking down on others... er... rather, that is... giving a negative "estimate of their intelligence and personality"... (I think)....

Just trying to be helpful...

Now that's a fine dang piece 'o writing raht there, boah. I truly, truly enjoyed this one. Obdurateness.....ZOWIE that was TITS!

rde

And yeah, I agree with Brant because I have never found any other explanation and I'm tired of looking.

[Rich Engle]

I have seen short flashes of it in people, and if they have a reasonably healthy level of self-esteem, they auto-correct it.

So I guess it would be interesting to ask NB about the nature of it, no? I do believe that it is a certain strong type of emotion that can be linked very directly to self-esteem, both components or either/or.

It only makes sense. If there is something you don't like about yourself, or feel inefficacious about, your SE "immune" system deficiency could easily produce something like this.

Whenever I have seen something in someone I don't possess, I admired it, felt good for the person, and lastly, asked myself "I wonder what I could do to make that happen?"

rde

[caroljane]

"You're pretty much fucked as soon as you criticize others who have put lots of discipline into what they do."-- Rich Engle

To criticize otherwise only shows something about yourself--maybe something you don't like. Perhaps you are jealous.

rde

This take on criticism is solely from the perspective of the criticized, Rich.

There are many who put tons of discipline into what they do, yet the finished product is mediocre or worse - look at the bestseller lists. I'm sure you know some examples from the music world also.

I watched a hilarious doc last night on the making of Troll 2. Ferociously dedicated, driven, disciplined (more or less)people creating what has been called the Worst Movie Ever Made.

[Jonathan]

On this thread, I'm still at the point of believing that JR is not foolish enough to believe the silly crap that he's saying. I'd say that I have more respect for him than that. I've been operating under the assumption that we're having some fun jousting, and that he's yanking chains and hoping to get a rise out of people. If it turns out that I've seriously misread him, I'll eventually drop it and lower my estimate of his intelligence and personality accordingly.

It's hard to refute an argument made up entirely of condescension.

--Brant

I have to agree with Brant there, Jonathan. The comment is more condescending than anything you critique AR for saying, let alone JR.

I was going to post a message agreeing with Brant as well, since I interpreted his comment as commiseration and support for me in dealing with JR's use of pure condescension as a substitute for argument.

What does it amount to except a threat?: Unless JR says he doesn't believe "the silly crap that he's saying," there goes your "estimate of his intelligence and personality."

Did you grasp the strategic depth of the football plays that were posted above? Do you think that JR grasped it? Which defensive strategies and tactics would you used to counter the plays? I'd think that it would be very easy for you to answer, since football is something that any child, brute or moron can understand, and requires no more intelligence than a game of tic-tac-toe. So let's see how you and JR are going to use your Xs against Walsh and Lombardi's Os.

J

Edited April 26, 2011 by Jonathan

[Greybird]

Be honest, folks. If condescension were a shooting offense, all Objectiv-ish forums would have run out of bullets years ago. (I usually see that as being inevitable, given Rand's personality and rhetorical style.)

In the present instance, so many are — or are presumed to be — scrambling up the sides of Mount Olympus that it's become impossible to trace them without a scorecard. If, apropos of recent thoughts, you'll pardon that expression.

This being the "garbage pile" — a moniker and destination I never cared for — I'm not inclined to scrabble through the stale coffee grounds (as in being hopped up) and moldy banana peels (as in rhetorically slipping on same) to try to find one.

Why not find something more productive to chew on? Determinism hasn't been espoused or eviscerated in the last hour or so, unlike every three-minute interval before that on the last 20 years of the ObjectiNet. (That was meant to be wearily sardonic, not condescending.)

[Jonathan]

How is this one whit better than AR's "And so, gentle reader, do you," which you've interpreted as an intimidation technique?

Don't you see that JR is demanding that I lower my appraisal of his intelligence? His position is that football and basketball are so simple that even retarded children can understand them. Yet if JR can't grasp and counter the plays posted above, then I must conclude, using his standards, that he is so intellectually deficient that he can't even keep up with retarded children. I'm simply applying his own methods of judgment to him.

J

[Selene]

How is this one whit better than AR's "And so, gentle reader, do you," which you've interpreted as an intimidation technique?

Don't you see that JR is demanding that I lower my appraisal of his intelligence? His position is that football and basketball are so simple that even retarded children can understand them. Yet if JR can't grasp and counter the plays posted above, then I must conclude, using his standards, that he is so intellectually deficient that he can't even keep up with retarded children. I'm simply applying his own methods of judgment to him.

J

Jonathan:

This "game" was developed in the early '60's and has been referred to as football chess which is an accurate comparison. My friends and I took the basic game and expanded it to over fifty (50) offensive plays which when you add the WS weak side; SS strong side and M middle addition which expands the "play book" to one hundred and fifty (150). Defensively, there are approximately thirty (30) plays which include safety blitzes, multiple linebacker blitz and red dog packages and zone defences ranging from deep to five (5) yards. These also expand to WS SS and M, double coverages, etc. We added line stunts to the defensive play book.

The additional beauty of the game, is that it played really well and was close to perfect in terms of actual time of play in comparison to the real professional game.

It was a very intelligent and realistic strategic game that improved your mind. I have recently been trying to acquire the game again which has been difficult since it was discontinued.

"Pro Quarterback is the first adult game for men and boys who take football seriously and have outgrown toys. It is a scientifically designed game system which reproduces the dynamics of modern professional football. The Flanker-T offense versus the 4-3-4 defense with statistical accuracy and realism. Physical factors balance out. Each team is exactly equal in power, speed and proficiency.

There are twelve Offense Cards and nine Defense Cards. Each players chooses a card secretly. The player on offense then declares whether the play action will take place on the weak side or strong side. The player on offense rolls three six-sided dice and the player on defense rolls two six-sided dice. The die rolls are modified by the play choices and the resulting yardage is the modified offensive roll minus the modified defensive roll. Results of the plays are recorded using a grease pencil on the laminated gameboard.

To get instructions concerning penalties and organizing a league, one would have had to contact the now defunct publisher."

Adam

Post Script: You would have enjoyed playing it Jonathan

[Brant Gaede]

How is this one whit better than AR's "And so, gentle reader, do you," which you've interpreted as an intimidation technique?

Don't you see that JR is demanding that I lower my appraisal of his intelligence? His position is that football and basketball are so simple that even retarded children can understand them. Yet if JR can't grasp and counter the plays posted above, then I must conclude, using his standards, that he is so intellectually deficient that he can't even keep up with retarded children. I'm simply applying his own methods of judgment to him.

J

I hereby bet the ranch that JR would care less if he could care less even though he couldn't care less what your estimation of his intelligence is. He might feel about stupidity as I do, though: After decades of observing it in action in the public weal it's very painful. Also painful is all the people who don't know wtf they are talking about but think they are world class experts entitled to their opinions displayed as public policy while they receive medals for their rendered blessings fucking up the world.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

My favorite sport: a type of football played with the heads of your vanquished enemies.

--Brant

super retarded, but there's hope

[Selene]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

Brant:

Certainly not trying to prove JR "wrong." I am putting forth affirmative statements that any "game" or "sport" has dimensions that are intellectual if you chose to use your mind to enhance your experience. Just like a book, or a piece of music.

You are the driver of the experience.

Adam

chess is not an adult use of the mind...really? Now that is an intriguing statement.

[Brant Gaede]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

Brant:

Certainly not trying to prove JR "wrong." I am putting forth affirmative statements that any "game" or "sport" has dimensions that are intellectual if you chose to use your mind to enhance your experience. Just like a book, or a piece of music.

You are the driver of the experience.

Adam

chess is not an adult use of the mind...really? Now that is an intriguing statement.

Chess is self-contained and circular. A proper use of the adult mind is expansive and creative and understanding the world and acting rationally in it. It's not the self-destructive genius of a Bobby Fisher, feeding on itself for not having another outlet. That doesn't mean a creative genius won't be properly focused on painting or literature seemingly at the expense of almost all else, but the creativity in chess has all been identified and programmed into the world-conquering IBM computer. Do you know why that computer was put on the shelf? It had made itself worthless after beating Kasparov by being programmed with the games and moves of all of his strongest opponents. They're the guys who actually figured out how to occasionally beat Kasparov, not the programmers. Add two more lines of squares to the chessboard and the computer would have been helpless, not Kasparov.

--Brant

[Selene]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

Brant:

Certainly not trying to prove JR "wrong." I am putting forth affirmative statements that any "game" or "sport" has dimensions that are intellectual if you chose to use your mind to enhance your experience. Just like a book, or a piece of music.

You are the driver of the experience.

Adam

chess is not an adult use of the mind...really? Now that is an intriguing statement.

...A proper use of the adult mind is expansive and creative and understanding the world and acting rationally in it. It's not the self-destructive genius of a Bobby Fisher, feeding on itself for not having another outlet. ...

--Brant

Brant:

We are in agreement. I am talking about enjoying chess as an adult, not making chess your only aspect of life.

Bobby Fisher had no other life aspects other than walking. I have heard this author interviewed about precisely your point, His book is here.

Unless you are making another point that I am not getting.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

Brant:

Certainly not trying to prove JR "wrong." I am putting forth affirmative statements that any "game" or "sport" has dimensions that are intellectual if you chose to use your mind to enhance your experience. Just like a book, or a piece of music.

You are the driver of the experience.

Adam

chess is not an adult use of the mind...really? Now that is an intriguing statement.

...A proper use of the adult mind is expansive and creative and understanding the world and acting rationally in it. It's not the self-destructive genius of a Bobby Fisher, feeding on itself for not having another outlet. ...

--Brant

Brant:

We are in agreement. I am talking about enjoying chess as an adult, not making chess your only aspect of life.

Bobby Fisher had no other life aspects other than walking. I have heard this author interviewed about precisely your point, His book is here.

Unless you are making another point that I am not getting.

Adam

That's funny, Adam; I'm reading another book also entitled Endgame.

--Brant

but I don't want to read about Bobby

[PDS]

Show me the person who doesn't waste some of his leisure time, and I will be more impressed by those who look down their noses at sports.

Some people waste their leisure time by sleeping too much, at least by my lights, because I only sleep 4 hours per night.

Others waste their leisure time by listening to jazz and pretending to enjoy the taste of vintage wines, or by participating in an online forum or two. So what?

One of the great joys of my life is watching a baseball game at the end of a long work day. I did this as a kid growing up, except I did it by radio. Perhaps this admission renders me a retard of some kind. I have learned to watch baseball with one eye and turn the other inward on the events of the day. It is a way to rest my conscious mind and let my subconscious mind "go to work", so to speak.

How is the different from the jazz aficionado, unless we assume that, while listening to said jazz, the jazz aficionado only works on skyscrapers/the invention of new motors/the great American novel in his spare time?

[Selene]

One would think it would be more understood that JR's rant about sports was a rant and considered in toto. As such he illustrated an important truth: sports ain't adult. Sports help young bodies develop into strong and corrdinated bodies while the kids have fun. What is really funny here has been the argument by diagrams attempting to prove him wrong. Even chess is not an adult use of the mind. In fact, too much chess might retard your offspring. Ayn Rand once remarked how she felt she was living in a world of children. JR has not been so generous; adults as children is a contradiction. They are actually retarded.

--Brant

Brant:

Certainly not trying to prove JR "wrong." I am putting forth affirmative statements that any "game" or "sport" has dimensions that are intellectual if you chose to use your mind to enhance your experience. Just like a book, or a piece of music.

You are the driver of the experience.

Adam

chess is not an adult use of the mind...really? Now that is an intriguing statement.

...A proper use of the adult mind is expansive and creative and understanding the world and acting rationally in it. It's not the self-destructive genius of a Bobby Fisher, feeding on itself for not having another outlet. ...

--Brant

Brant:

We are in agreement. I am talking about enjoying chess as an adult, not making chess your only aspect of life.

Bobby Fisher had no other life aspects other than walking. I have heard this author interviewed about precisely your point, His book is here.

Unless you are making another point that I am not getting.

Adam

That's funny, Adam; I'm reading another book also entitled Endgame.

--Brant

but I don't want to read about Bobby

This one?

[Selene]

Show me the person who doesn't waste some of his leisure time, and I will be more impressed by those who look down their noses at sports.

Some people waste their leisure time by sleeping too much, at least by my lights, because I only sleep 4 hours per night.

Others waste their leisure time by listening to jazz and pretending to enjoy the taste of vintage wines, or by participating in an online forum or two. So what?

One of the great joys of my life is watching a baseball game at the end of a long work day. I did this as a kid growing up, except I did it by radio. Perhaps this admission renders me a retard of some kind. I have learned to watch baseball with one eye and turn the other inward on the events of the day. It is a way to rest my conscious mind and let my subconscious mind "go to work", so to speak.

How is the different from the jazz aficionado, unless we assume that, while listening to said jazz, the jazz aficionado only works on skyscrapers/the invention of new motors/the great American novel in his spare time?

PDS:

Yep. Excellent point.

Bill Clinton sat for hours playing solitaire because the repetition of the game allowed him to think about important matters.

When I managed a difficult political campaign, I would find a blue collar bar with a gravity fed pinball machine and have my lunch at the bar a few times a week and play pinball which allowed me to think about the difficult strategies and decisions that would have to be made by me to advance the campaign.

So, I fully understand what you mean.

Adam

lover of baseball also - Yankee psychotic - only the best lol