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Will Conservatives Defend Atlas Shrugged This Time Around?

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I'm going to have to blame you for that one, Jeff. I said I'd only do the screenplay if you could come in to provide Atlas Shrugged with those all-important comic touches you do so well.

Unfortunately, they said no, that was a dealbreaker. They had Woody Allen under contract and weren't even willing to take a meeting with you. Since he has been known to use non-libertarian sources to provide him with material, I said "Hell no; I want Jeff" and walked away.

Also, I'm very grateful for your supportive comments, even though you haven't seen my condensation of lines from the money speech telephone answering machine message and thus can't be certain of its quality:

Your ability to judge it as highly as you do without having any idea what is in it is as reassuring and heart-warming as usual.

I knew you'd have my back (whoops, what's that sticking in there??)

Edited by Philip Coates

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Male chauvinist breast fetish alert!!!!

But I have to admit, she does have a beautiful pair of eyes!

Adam

posterior man

Hmmmm. . .Chauvinism: militant, unreasoning, and boastful devotion to one's [sex]. That ain't me, dude. If anything, I am militantly devoted to worshipping the glory of feminine pulchritude--face, eyes, lips, hair, skin, neck, breasts, shoulders, arms, midriff, butt, legs, feet, nether region, et. al.

The female body would be my open and shut case for intelligent design (if I believed in intelligent design).

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This is pretty funny. I thought the money speech wasn’t in the movie, I take it, though, that this snippet isn’t actually from the movie. The delivery lacks inner fire, it’s ok I guess.

Video=Francisco's money speech message on answering machine.

Funny? I thought that was fantastic! Very eloquent and philosophical. I wish it had been in the movie.

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This is pretty funny. I thought the money speech wasn't in the movie, I take it, though, that this snippet isn't actually from the movie. The delivery lacks inner fire, it's ok I guess.

Video=Francisco's money speech message on answering machine

Well that really sucked.

It was excellent. It suggests that the director or one of the producers or somebody heard all the talk about the film missing the philosophical message and wrote this promotional ad to try to make up for that oversight.

Ayn Rand thought that anatomical descriptions of sex acts should not be used in a pejorative manner. So if you think it "sucked" in the sense of a glorious sensual celebration of being alive--yeah, it sure did.

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This is pretty funny. I thought the money speech wasn't in the movie, I take it, though, that this snippet isn't actually from the movie. The delivery lacks inner fire, it's ok I guess.

Video=Francisco's money speech message on answering machine

Well that really sucked.

It was excellent. It suggests that the director or one of the producers or somebody heard all the talk about the film missing the philosophical message and wrote this promotional ad to try to make up for that oversight.

Ayn Rand thought that anatomical descriptions of sex acts should not be used in a pejorative manner. So if you think it "sucked" in the sense of a glorious sensual celebration of being alive--yeah, it sure did.

Don't forget "slurped." As in sucked and slurped.

--Brant

season to taste

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I knew you reminded me of somebody! It's Rumsfeld....oh, no,....it's all true....

Now, is that nice?

I compare you to her keeweeboy090200014.jpg and you compare me to Rummy (who, incidentally, is not nearly as fiendishly heartless as I am).

I'm going to have to take back all the nice things I said about you. . .

Aw Dennis, don't be like that. I wouldn't take back the nice things I said about you.Allow for gravity, maximum gravity, time travel and alternate universes, and let's nice on.

Comparing me to himIC33420.jpgis nice???

Admit it. You now believe I am the incarnation of evil personified. Well, at least I have the pleasant memories of those earlier posts. You can never take that away from me.

(I always obey gravity. It’s the law. At least in this universe.)

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Ayn Rand thought that anatomical descriptions of sex acts should not be used in a pejorative manner. So if you think it "sucked" in the sense of a glorious sensual celebration of being alive--yeah, it sure did.

Don't forget "slurped." As in sucked and slurped.

--Brant

season to taste

Please don't make noises when you eat.

Edited by Dennis Hardin

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Subject: Convincing People about the Meaning of Money

> Very eloquent and philosophical. I wish it had been in the movie.

Dennis, it wouldn't be understandable by many in the general public standing alone that way. The entire speech is 2655 words long. That's convincing. Especially in the context of the novel.

The phone recording (other than the ring-ring, you have reached D'Anconia copper, and the closing goodbye and good luck) is just the first paragraph almost verbatim, about 173 words:

"So you think [they say] that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

That terse introductory excerpt is *way, way too abstract, without enough concrete examples*. I've underlined only some of the parts that are either too abstract standing alone without examples or explanation or are "jargony phrases" that someone who remembers econ 101 - but not the average listener - might understand. Just as important, the 'money speech' is designed to be read and slowly digested, not heard as a quick line of patter. It's not the way people talk or is unfamiliar "professor speak". And that takes adjustment. Especially if a lot of points are packed in as it flies by in a spiel, rather than being able to go back and reread. [Reminds me of exactly why Objectivist eggheads get "Huhh???" reactions in conversation - they think they can tallk like Rand without a whole novel and lots of rereading to make it digestible or comprehendible.]

Instead, here are more concrete pieces that I would choose from later in the speech. I've compressed or altered a couple words. I've underlined some of the more concrete phrases or examples:

--Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another, their only substitute if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

--That phrase about the evil of money comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves: Through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters: as aristocrats of the sword {or} of birth, {or} of the bureau{cracy}. And {they} despised the producers -- as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers. And in the modern world -- as industrialists.

--For the first time [in America], man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest. But only fortunes-by-work.

--Men had always thought of wealth as something to be seized - or begged - or inherited - or looted - or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created.

--When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns – or dollars. Take your choice.

(PS, Notice also how these five separate 'snips' reinforce each other. They concretize not just what money does as a tool of trade, but what the alternative has been throughout history. The passage the movie producers used doesn't really do that as well.)

Edited by Philip Coates

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Subject: Convincing People about the Meaning of Money

> Very eloquent and philosophical. I wish it had been in the movie.

Dennis, it wouldn't be understandable by many in the general public standing alone that way. The entire speech is 2655 words long. That's convincing. Especially in the context of the novel.

The phone recording (other than the ring-ring, you have reached D'Anconia copper, and the closing goodbye and good luck) is just the first paragraph almost verbatim, about 173 words:

"So you think [they say] that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

Phil,

Looks like you put a lot of thought into this, and I'm sorry that I just don't have the time right now to analyze your comments in detail. But my immediate response is that you're asking way to much for a one minute promotional blurb. You're unlikely to "convince" anyone of anything in one minute. All that brief commentary could do was to suggest certain themes and stir up interest, and I thought Rand's introduction to Francisco's speech did a good job of that.

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> my immediate response is that you're asking way to much for a one minute promotional blurb. You're unlikely to "convince" anyone of anything in one minute.

Doesn't mean you don't do the best you can, make it as powerful as it can be. And my wider point was abstract jargon convinces no one, doesn't 'intrigue' many people, and turns off a lot of people.

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And my wider point was abstract jargon convinces no one, doesn't 'intrigue' many people, and turns off a lot of people.

And what exactly was the evidence you offered for this point?

JR

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This is pretty funny. I thought the money speech wasn’t in the movie, I take it, though, that this snippet isn’t actually from the movie. The delivery lacks inner fire, it’s ok I guess.

Video=Francisco's money speech message on answering machine.

Funny? I thought that was fantastic! Very eloquent and philosophical. I wish it had been in the movie.

Turning it into an answering machine message was mildly funny, but I didn't think it quite reached critical mass as humor. Meanwhile the delivery was just ok, it should have been more stirring. So it wasn't good humor or good drama, just blah. Or as I originally said, it's ok I guess.

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Yep. Bland.

Just did not ring either the humor bell or the eloquent bell.

Totally agree.

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Turning it into an answering machine message was mildly funny, but I didn't think it quite reached critical mass as humor. Meanwhile the delivery was just ok, it should have been more stirring. So it wasn't good humor or good drama, just blah. Or as I originally said, it's ok I guess.

Yep. Bland.

Just did not ring either the humor bell or the eloquent bell.

Totally agree.

Isn’t that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

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Turning it into an answering machine message was mildly funny, but I didn't think it quite reached critical mass as humor. Meanwhile the delivery was just ok, it should have been more stirring. So it wasn't good humor or good drama, just blah. Or as I originally said, it's ok I guess.

Yep. Bland.

Just did not ring either the humor bell or the eloquent bell.

Totally agree.

Isn't that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

Doctore:

Understandable as to our disagreeing. However, it is an accurate indication that the film makers understand Atlas. However, I did not doubt that from the get go.

Glad you are going to the opening public performance. So am I. I will be taking a train into my beloved New York City and then I am going to stroll past the Empire State Building and hang a right and walk downtown to the theatre for the 11:30 AM first public showing in Ayn's beloved city.

Adam

Edited by Selene

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Isn't that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

Doctore:

Understandable as to our disagreeing. However, it is an accurate indication that the film makers understand Atlas. However, I did not doubt that from the get go.

Really? After the screenwriter's comments and the co-producer's bone-headed suggestion of making part three a musical?

Glad you are going to the opening public performance. So am I. I will be taking a train into my beloved New York City and then I am going to stroll past the Empire State Building and hang a right and walk downtown to the theatre for the 11:30 AM first public showing in Ayn's beloved city.

Adam

Truth be told, I will be seeing it on opening day but not the opening performance. I have a ticket to the 7:15 PM show. It is playing at one of the two theatres I often go to on weekends.

The last time I was in New York--about three years ago--I stood across the street from Ayn's old apartment and imagined what it must have been like to have been a member of the "collective" while she was writing Atlas. I am sure you will have some similar thoughts and feelings on April 15.

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Yes Dennis:

It is going to be a glorious day. Uplifting, invigorating and emotional. I will thoroughly enjoy enmeshing myself in how incredible it is having been and continuing to be involved in one of the great philosophical movements in US history.

I am fundamentally optimistic and hopeful that the apparent coming dark times will be purgative in nature.

Adam

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Turning it into an answering machine message was mildly funny, but I didn't think it quite reached critical mass as humor. Meanwhile the delivery was just ok, it should have been more stirring. So it wasn't good humor or good drama, just blah. Or as I originally said, it's ok I guess.

Yep. Bland.

Just did not ring either the humor bell or the eloquent bell.

Totally agree.

Isn’t that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way. De gustibus…

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> I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way.

A lesson you could take to heart.

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> I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way.

A lesson you could take to heart.

Silence is golden. Another good lesson.

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> I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way.

A lesson you could take to heart.

Silence is golden. Another good lesson.

A pox on all your houses.

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> I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way.

A lesson you could take to heart.

Silence is golden. Another good lesson.

A pox on all your houses.

Damn, I've got Phil and Ted serving me up double shots of Haterade. :angry:

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> I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way.

A lesson you could take to heart.

Silence is golden. Another good lesson.

A pox on all your houses.

Damn, I've got Phil and Ted serving me up double shots of Haterade. :angry:

I'll show you the way to the Hatequarters and Mr P. will be with you soon.

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Isn’t that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way. De gustibus…

I have to give you credit for posting a simple, straightforward compliment. rara avis

Thanks

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Isn't that interesting? I could not disagree more. I thought it was pitch perfect for a brief promo—and one very encouraging sign that the filmmakers actually do have some comprehension of what Atlas Shrugged is all about.

I have to give you credit for disagreeing in an agreeable way. De gustibus…

I have to give you credit for posting a simple, straightforward compliment. rara avis

Thanks

Dennis:

Rara Avis another inexpensive environmental vacation place this one is in Costa Rica

Rates are phenomenal - about $80.00 per day.

This is similar in concept to the environmental retreat in Maho Bay on St. John, Virgin Islands.

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